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Old 11-12-2002, 03:32:21   #151
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Ehhh...ok...maybe. I think I got Halifax and Hamilton confused. That ship still looks a bit less imposing than a Perry class frigate (from bow on). But Perry class frigates are missile bait anyway. Do you know what armament the Halifax has? That would sorta determine how much of a warship it is. An FFG isn't really that much of a ship, though. Compared to a cruiser or even a destroyer.
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:37:37   #152
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http://www.navy.forces.ca/mspa_fleet...pecs_tac_e.asp
and
http://www.navy.forces.ca/mspa_fleet...ecs_tech_e.asp
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:39:39   #153
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1 x 57 mm Bofors MK 2 gun
1 x 20 mm Vulcan Phalanx close in weapon system
6 x .50 calibre machine guns
2 x twin torpedo tubes (Mk 46 torpedoes)
8 HARPOON surface to surface missiles
16 Sea Sparrow surface to air missiles
2 x 6 barreled Chaff/IR launchers
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:50:02   #154
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Pretty similar to the FFG. Gun is a little smaller, but the FFG gun isn't much to be proud of either. I guess Halifax is the equivalent of a "fig-7". What else do the Canadians have? any links to the rest of their fleet? Destroyers and larger vessels?
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:50:45   #155
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Laugh it up: http://www.navy.forces.ca/mspa_fleet/fleet_home_e.asp
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:51:11   #156
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The Halifax class is as good as it gets for the Canadian Navy
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:56:39   #157
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Of interest...I served on a submarine which had the "Bad News Bears" reputation. We were famous for sinking at the pier and various other disasters throughout the life of the ship. We always seemed to get into more than our fair share of trouble with the Navy nuclear regulators (seperate, better, and meaner than the civilian regulators). When we were in Canada, we caused a little bit of a brouhaha by screwing up some stuff that led our emergency cooling system to initiate an a bunch of steam (clean) came out of the ship. Canadians came over to see if we needed help while we put firehoses on the hot area...oh...and than we got in trouble for not reporting it correctly up our chain of command (couldn't win).

I didn't cause that one...but I had my share of screwups. We averaged about 3 times the norm of other boats (number of incidents). It was a painful tour...we got a lot of "attention" and "help" from above.

I guess if I knew the strong force better, we wouldn't have had such problems.
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:59:54   #158
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I think your Iriquois class is more of a warship. http://www.navy.forces.ca/mspa_fleet...pecs_tac_e.asp

Still doesn't have a 5'' gun though.
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:02:13   #159
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What good are guns these days?
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:08:49   #160
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Very useful. It's basically sea-borne artillery. Mostly for shore bombardment.
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:12:16   #161
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What good is shore bombardment these days?

I was under the impression that naval warfare today is nearly all missiles?
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:17:46   #162
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It is very useful for the same reasons that artillery is useful to an Army. There was a huge amount of shore bombardment in Desert Storm 1. It is very useful when you have a lot of targets. Missiles are expensive. A Tomahawk costs about a million. A shell costs a thousand.
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:19:20   #163
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And a Harpoon costs _________?
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:20:03   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher
What good is shore bombardment these days?

I was under the impression that naval warfare today is nearly all missiles?
Much ship to ship combat is no longer with guns. That is not true of shore attack though. Not when you really are fighting a war...as opposed to blowing up an obstacle course or two.
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:21:08   #165
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Harpoon is cheaper. It is not a land attack missile though. You continue to confuse the changing nature of ship vs ship battles with the needs for power projection ashore.
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:27:17   #166
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When was the last time Canada has done land bombardment?
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:28:22   #167
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I'm not confusing the nature of ship vs ship battles with the need of power projection ashore, because Canada simply doesn't do that kind of stuff. Our ships exist as support craft and to defend from air attacks and from other ships.
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:30:44   #168
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Yeah you were. But at least you've straightened it out now. Maybe that is true (the more defensive nature of Canadian requirements...and of course...you have to factor in the implicit protection accorded by the US.)
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Old 11-12-2002, 04:36:14   #169
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I wasn't confusing anything, I was always focusing on the defensive nature of the Canadian ships.

You were confusing the nature of Canadian ships, GP.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:00:20   #170
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You said, "isn't Naval warfare all missiles" after we had already shifted the discussion to shore bambardment (and where you asked me what use guns are in shore bombardment...and the answer to that is a lot.) You straighened things out when you said that Canada does not see a need for shore bombardment because their forces are defensive.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:02:47   #171
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One little question doesn't sidetrack the whole debate.

The point is, largeish guns are entirely useless for Canadian vessels. Shore bombardment or not.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:06:15   #172
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You also asked about the cost of a Harpoon (an anti-ship missile) in response to a comparison I made of the costs of different types of shore bombardment (Tomahawk only used for shore attack. Shells primarily used for shore attack.) If you want to argue about the irrelevance of shore attack, that you did later.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:08:34   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Shore bombardment or not.

I disagree. The need (or lack of need) of the shore attack mission was your strongest argument. If in fact shore attack is a needed function of your ships, they will greatly benefit from guns.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:13:08   #174
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How can something that will never be a needed function be a plausible "what if"?

It's like asking why Canada doesn't have nukes.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:13:52   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by GP
You also asked about the cost of a Harpoon (an anti-ship missile) in response to a comparison I made of the costs of different types of shore bombardment (Tomahawk only used for shore attack. Shells primarily used for shore attack.) If you want to argue about the irrelevance of shore attack, that you did later.
I was just wondering how expensive they are, I know that they don't attack land...
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:32:48   #176
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It may become plausible sooner than you think.

Any idea how Canada will deal with the opening of the North-West Passage?
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:34:35   #177
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You are the one who posited, "Guns are useless for Canadian vessels. Shore bombardment or not."
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:35:06   #178
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We would slash military spending even further, of course.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:35:34   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by GP
You are the one who posited, "Guns are useless for Canadian vessels. Shore bombardment or not."
Yes, because they'd never use them for shore bombardment even if they had them.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:46:03   #180
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Look, this is a silly discussion. If you have any doubts about the importance of shore bombardment it just means you haven't downloaded the last patch.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:56:02   #181
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
It may become plausible sooner than you think.

Any idea how Canada will deal with the opening of the North-West Passage?
Fight it in court, then ignore violations.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:57:24   #182
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TMM, there's a good chance we'll lose the court fight anyways. Which means that warships won't do any good unless we want to fight a 5-minute war with the US+UK+Japan+France etc.
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Old 11-12-2002, 05:59:16   #183
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GP, shore bombardment is not a cost-effective option for RCN. Our ships could not defend themselves against vigorous attack by most third-world nations on those nations' home turf anyways...
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:00:48   #184
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Quote:
Originally posted by GP
Ehhh...ok...maybe. I think I got Halifax and Hamilton confused. That ship still looks a bit less imposing than a Perry class frigate (from bow on). But Perry class frigates are missile bait anyway. Do you know what armament the Halifax has? That would sorta determine how much of a warship it is. An FFG isn't really that much of a ship, though. Compared to a cruiser or even a destroyer.
No crap. The RCN as a whole can prolly be called missile bait. Navies are expensive. We don't really want one.
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:03:11   #185
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And I'm not sure how much we're relying on US for implicit protection. I think we're more relying on isolation. We've got friendlies on all sides (now that the Russians are tame) and two great big frigging oceans separating us from everybody else.
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:08:33   #186
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On the other hand we have a whole province full of hostiles!
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:10:13   #187
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Gee crazy horse. That sounds familar...

But you do rely on the US for protection. We have several treaties to that effect, AIR.
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:12:17   #188
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Quote:
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Gee crazy horse. That sounds familar...

But you do rely on the US for protection. We have several treaties to that effect, AIR.
Really? When was the last time we called on you? Never.

When was the last time you called on us? Just over a year ago.

And believe it or not, I'm not especially worried about the threat of foreign hordes invading Canada. That would go even without NATO, NORAD, etc.
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:28:48   #189
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Yeah, KH, that's it.
You really believe that, or just having fun talking shit? You must be having fun, cause you aren't usually that much a Lurker.

Our two nations are too intertwined. You guys rely on the fact that should someone, other then the US, give you problems, you call on your southern neighbor. If we give it to you, you remind us how much we are into each other. If a foreign army came rolling in on you, your goverment would be calling the White House, reminding them of the agreements we have to support you and back you up, and referring to Red Scare Project Names...

We have been good buds, since you guys managed to kick us back and not take you over, way on back in our mutual history.

Humm... you called on us plenty during the Cold War. Just wait for it all to be declassified. If you manage to live that long as a roomate with Lurker.
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:29:29   #190
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Darkstar, when will you admit that without Canada the USA is nothing?!!?
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Old 11-12-2002, 06:31:42   #191
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Well, without Canada, I don't think the US would be a Super Power. Just an extended territory of Mexico.
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Old 11-12-2002, 07:57:47   #192
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The group is called Voices in the WILDERNESS yet it's stationed in Chicago.
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Old 11-12-2002, 08:05:59   #193
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Quote:
Originally posted by Asher
How can something that will never be a needed function be a plausible "what if"?

It's like asking why Canada doesn't have nukes.
You dont have nukes?
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Old 11-12-2002, 08:17:36   #194
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We do, but they belong to the US.

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Old 11-12-2002, 08:20:28   #195
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I say sacrifice a missile and give me the million dollars. I'll buy 5 million pounds of chocolate chips and feed the world with them. Then everybody will be so hyper somebody's eventually bound to give you a good reason to use the rest of the missiles.

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Old 11-12-2002, 08:50:58   #196
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Quote:
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You dont have nukes?
No nukes, but lots of maple syrup -- most of it, in fact.

Attack Canada, and you will never be able to eat pancakes in the proper fashion again.
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Old 11-12-2002, 09:01:36   #197
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Not to mention the mossies will get you. They will.

Just imagine, your entire army infected with West Nile...
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Old 11-12-2002, 09:42:21   #198
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I can't believe you're talking naval power without mentioning the mountain navy....
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Old 11-12-2002, 10:12:23   #199
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We wouldn't want to steal your thunder.
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Old 11-12-2002, 10:19:33   #200
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Since when ?
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