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Old 06-11-2002, 20:09:24   #101
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Old 06-11-2002, 20:24:56   #102
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Old 06-11-2002, 20:30:49   #103
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Old 06-11-2002, 22:49:24   #104
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Apart from the usual fun with Bush, I've always said that he's of average intelligence
His shcool and test records show well above "average" intellignece. His public speaking skill is limited.
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Old 06-11-2002, 23:00:47   #105
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I have to say, I think maroule summarised that pretty neatly. Just a bit of look before you leap and think 2 stages on would be useful.
But isn't this the very problem? Europe has had much experience with terrorism - although, let's be frank, the sheer scale of 911 makes it hard to compare it to Brigadi Rossi kidnappings, Rote Arme Fraktion bombings and Action Directe shootings - and we never did manage to root it out. The reason red terrorism went out of fashion in Europe was the collapse of the SU, not our enlightened policies.

Since it doesn't look like the collapse of the Islamic world - which provides the same support for these glorious martyrs of Allah as the SU did for for red terrorists during the cold war - is going to fold anytime soon and in the light of the proliferation on weapons of mass destruction it's very much possible the the American pro-active stance is the right one.

Our track record sure isn't much to write home about.
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Old 07-11-2002, 08:52:33   #106
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But isn't this the very problem? Europe has had much experience with terrorism - although, let's be frank, the sheer scale of 911 makes it hard to compare it to Brigadi Rossi kidnappings, Rote Arme Fraktion bombings and Action Directe shootings - and we never did manage to root it out. The reason red terrorism went out of fashion in Europe was the collapse of the SU, not our enlightened policies.

Since it doesn't look like the collapse of the Islamic world - which provides the same support for these glorious martyrs of Allah as the SU did for for red terrorists during the cold war - is going to fold anytime soon and in the light of the proliferation on weapons of mass destruction it's very much possible the the American pro-active stance is the right one.

Our track record sure isn't much to write home about.

yes and no
- yes our track record is poor, but we had one, so let's not have the US patronize us on suffering random bombings. 9/11 scale was indeed absolutely shocking and demoralising, but the CIA trains well its (now former) agents and everything is bigger is the US.

- you are only mentionning extreme left terror attacks. In the last 15 years in France, all terror attacks have been coming from islam based groups, mostly GIA (Algeria) or, in one occasion in 79, Palestine (although many palestinian groups like the FDLP are not religious based). By the way, there has not been any palestinian action since, because the EU has invested a lot of in trying to revitalise the west bank economy, for example the airport and TV stations (that are regularly smashed to bits by Israel). Give people jobs and a reason to preserve the current situation, and they'll feel less inclined to sacrifice their lives.

- "The reason red terrorism went out of fashion in Europe was the collapse of the SU, not our enlightened policies". I'm not convinced, many extreme left groups are still surviving long after the collapse of the USSR (hence, as you imply, without their logistical support). On the other hand, our 'enlightened policies' did bring results : despite all its problems, many were heartened by the progress in Ireland, however fragile they still are. The solution is not military, it showed but political with, when needed, military means.

"it's very much possible the the American pro-active stance is the right one" Proactivity is good. Misguided proactivity is not. Nobody questions the objectives, or the general direction, what can be questionned is the way to get there.


Final point on Bush, who brought us here. I never though the guy was stupid, as we love to say in Europe with our complex of superiority/inferiority towards the US. He is indeed cultivating his grass root image, and that does him a lot of good electorally. I think, however, that he is an extremely partisan president, who will stop at nothing to boost his political base (whatever the result on the country's situation, case in point are his fiscal policy, trade policy, environment, e tc.), and that his ideological prism (again on environment/oil, Israel, etc.) is the wrong one.

Now, Chris, here are a few questions, with a french gay hand flip:

- would you say that Sharon's policy, with the explicit support of Bush, are bringing us closer to a solution to the palestinian problem?
- about the energy consumption/waste generation of the US (measured per inhabitant, for example), do you think this current pattern can be held for long?
- tarifs and trade measures on steal in the US : how contradictory with the seemingly 'liberal' stance of the bush administration?
- after the proposed intervention in Irak, what will be the status of the Kurdistan republic the opposing parties to Saddam (that the US are supporting) try to create? wouldn't a kurdistan republic be a factor of regional tension between Iran, Turkey and Irak? More generally, and considering the sky high popularity of the US in the region, would a US controlled Irak create more resentments the region, or less? Wouldn't a UN mandate be less risky? (But then why would the UN support an action that was taken by the US alone?)

The answers, unfortunately, are fairly obvious. But would you care to disuss, Chris, or are you just as loud and brainwashed as you look?

Last edited by maroule; 07-11-2002 at 08:55:03.
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Old 07-11-2002, 09:25:14   #107
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So Chris, we're back to some happy little flaming ?

"I wonder if you even HAVE a point outside of the US is always wrong."

Oh poor thing.

Let's go through it quickly:

Economy: You can't even tell if the unemplyoment rate is falling or rising. Really want to debate economcis ?

"We just blew up 6 assholes in Yemen...."

With maybe one significant guy. But face it, little progress. And I'm still curious about the whole islamist network in the US. Very little on that front....

"... there has been NO ATTACKS on US personel or property"

AQ pattern. That point has merit if it still holds one year from now.

"Mexico (a security council memeber) just annouced they support the new US resolution, and in fact, the ONLY opposition is now France."

Mexico had the same reservations, and France pretty much got what it wanted. And it seems you are completely incapable of grasping a broader picture of US relations.

"This is why your full of shit Roland, YOU NEVER back it up"

Don't blame me for your reading comprehension problem.

"It's also why so many view you as anti-US, you never provide a argument, you expect me to provide a postion for YOU to attack.
Sorry, YOU said Bush was a disaster."

Oh come on. You said "greatest Pres since Truman" or something like that, I said "total disaster". We're even on that. If I have to be fully objective I'd have to rate individual policies. Like say a D on foreign policy, nothing on economic policy (tough to rate a non-existing policy), a clear F on dealing with the corporate problems, F for long term fiscal, C for short term fiscal.... etc.

Next time I'll throw a "you're anti-french full of shit never back it up" tantrum when you go french-bashing.
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Old 07-11-2002, 09:27:29   #108
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How is the level of corruption stunning? Please compare it to the previous few administrations.
Oh stunning from my POV, same for Clinton. I don't think Cheney is worse than Rubin. It's pretty much all the same.
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Old 07-11-2002, 09:53:25   #109
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Old 07-11-2002, 09:58:21   #110
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Old 07-11-2002, 10:12:06   #111
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Old 07-11-2002, 10:17:45   #112
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Old 07-11-2002, 10:27:29   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
Indeed they were. I find that I still can't look at Middle Eastern looking people and quesiton their motives.

I wasn't trying to disavow your point any. Just go off on a tangent. Those people joined the military looking for guidance in their actions instead of beating people up on the streets. Perhaps a more noble course of action depending on your point of view.
Yep that's fair.
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Old 07-11-2002, 10:41:32   #114
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Saying that there haven't been any attacks proves that AQ isn't active shows a bit how new this terrorism stuff is to the Yanks. They'll wait until things have calmed down and people are starting to feel secure and overconfident again. You can never be sure they aren't out there planning something...

What Maroule is saying about Palestine and Ireland is very important as well.
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Old 07-11-2002, 14:23:31   #115
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Oh stunning from my POV, same for Clinton. I don't think Cheney is worse than Rubin. It's pretty much all the same.
1. What are the "stunning" examples?

2. Compare it to German leaders than.

3. Maybe "stunning" is hyberbole?
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Old 07-11-2002, 14:27:47   #116
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Is it stunning corruption compared to the Daley administration in Chicago?

And what exactly is the curruption? Are cabinet officers taking bribes? I haven't seen any ABSCAM-style convictions. No Teapot Dome. What are you talking about?
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Old 07-11-2002, 14:33:53   #117
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1. An excellent example for the corruption of both parties is the WTO-mandated change in the foreign sales companies tax breaks. It would be incredibly easy to fix this even to the benefit of US companies, but both parties own the lobbyists tax gifts by the dollar, and it's fought tooth and nail how to twist this so all campaign donators get their promised return.

2. A good comparison is the problem with the banana market regimes, one of the worst special interest cases here. Contrary to US government propaganda, it was not about the preferential treatment per se, but how to administer it. The splits were along member state interests related to industries. The key difference is that those that benefit are selected on a much narrower level in the US - it simply isn't different from a company bribing some official to stuff them with tax money. When we have a bigger benefiting group in the US like Bush's tax cuts for the top 1 % it is a matter of special interest power - I'd not treat this under corruption, but rather under the question why the US middle class loves being ass-raped by the Republicans.

3. I'm taking a lot of rhetoric freedom, but not here. It is stunning.
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Old 07-11-2002, 14:35:38   #118
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"Is it stunning corruption compared to the Daley administration in Chicago?"

No.

"I haven't seen any ABSCAM-style convictions."

Well one key difference between the US and Italy in the corruption contest is that the emphasis on corruption of the legislature in the US, and that that has been perfectly legalized.
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:41:33   #119
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Then it's not corruption if it's legal.
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:46:15   #120
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Depends on the definition of corruption. A political system can be corrupt even if it is legal.
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:51:01   #121
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And now it's time for full blown lawyer Roland arguing. "Depends on the definition of country. Which depends on the definition of on."
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:53:14   #122
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YES!!!

Hey I had a little fun with Rah on that one....
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:53:42   #123
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:55:41   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
Then it's not corruption if it's legal.
'legal' doesn't mean uncorrupt, or just, or good
it was legal in Nazi Germany to expropriate jews
it is legal in Nigeria to stone cheating women, etc.

there are a few good points made, I don't see many interesting US answers.
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:55:44   #125
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"Define "a""

Now you're getting Clintonesque.
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:57:11   #126
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Old 07-11-2002, 15:59:53   #127
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"Define "a""

Now you're getting Clintonesque.
You started it.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:01:27   #128
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Not really. Simple dictionary matter:

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=corrupt

Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.
Venal; dishonest: a corrupt mayor.
Containing errors or alterations, as a text: a corrupt translation.
Archaic. Tainted; putrid.

Can be against moral/ethic rules as well as legal ones.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:04:57   #129
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Depends on your definition of rules.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:11:05   #130
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That's ok, I disagree on the Roland Dictionary definition of Corruption anyway.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:11:26   #131
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That depends on your definition of "depends".
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:12:21   #132
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Morals/ethics are flexible depending on the society you are in.

The way things in the US are done might seem corrupt to us Euros, and would be scandalous corruption if similar things were uncovered here, but in the US that's just the way things work. I think the Americans are right here. It's not corruption because in US society in general it's morally, ethically and legally OK.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:13:39   #133
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And it's also pretty useless to issue a blanket statement without citing specific incidents for examination.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:13:51   #134
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Depends on your definition of rules.
That's the stuff you tend to weep your ass by.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:20:34   #135
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Funko: There are many Americans who do not think it is ok.

Anyway, if you do not like the term corruption, we could settle for "special interest whoring".
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:27:54   #136
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Alot of the points made about whether the UN resolutions should be worded one way... as the UN sees fit... or as the US sees fit... could all be just alot of argueing over a moot point.

If Iraq complies with UN inspectors and does happen to destroy any WMD they may have, then it doesn't matter that the "or else" is put into the resolutions.

If he doesn't comply, then the "or else " is already in place. If he spits on the UN again, I don't think any country will take his side and be opposed to forcing him to comply. And thus, if the rest of the world would feel that way if he did spit on them... then why bother going to the hassle of rewriting it again to include the "or else" if it is already there. (Although I think that is how it should be)

Just how I see it. Alot of haggling over possible nothings

Personally, I think we should go the route of the way the Security council would like the resolution to be worded. If Iraq goes to strike 2 , then we take him out, or at least his weapons (if we find he has them) on strike 3.

Just like in Baseball.

Then again ... Maybe not. I may be talking out my ass because I worked last night and I have to stay up until my wife gets home from work.... waiting for the phone guy to get here to fix my other line. And I have to work tonight... So yeah, I am tired and talking out my ass. Forget I was even here. I forgot, myself, that I usually don't get involved in these silly debates because we aren't going to have a say in the matter any way... realistically speaking of course. I'm rambling... later.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:28:17   #137
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Morals/ethics are flexible depending on the society you are in.
Actually, the Americans here will tell you moral relativism is a sham.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:30:08   #138
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Quote:
"special interest whoring".
I like that one, btw.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:31:32   #139
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:34:25   #140
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So "special interest whoring" it shall be.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:36:16   #141
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Well if they are going to regulate you why shouldn't you make your voice heard? Is it whoring when the Unions spend millions trying to influence legislation? Or NOW, or is it only whoring when it's not a liberal group?
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:37:38   #142
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:39:22   #143
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"Is it whoring when the Unions spend millions trying to influence legislation?"

Yes.

(And it's always fun when US trade unions are labelled "liberal" )
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:39:29   #144
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Quote:
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Well if they are going to regulate you why shouldn't you make your voice heard? Is it whoring when the Unions spend millions trying to influence legislation? Or NOW, or is it only whoring when it's not a liberal group?
It's whoring when anyone does it.
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Old 07-11-2002, 16:45:26   #145
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That's not the prevelant view in the US.
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Old 07-11-2002, 17:06:24   #146
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Roland, it is too much of a bother to have to pin you down like this every time you make a snide remark. It's too bad since you're obviously smart and have interesting facts at times.
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Old 07-11-2002, 17:14:25   #147
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I take rhetoric freedom. There are very few people with whom to have a serious debate, so don't expect me to be fully objective, not snide, whatever, all the time. Or just most of the time. "Pinning down" on those things is like grabbing colours.

Maybe I should reserve a special colour for 100 % serious posts.

Btw, you do not think the sucking up to the tax lobbyists of campaign contributors is corrupt ?
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Old 07-11-2002, 17:16:48   #148
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If you are going to be 100% serious let's step outside and take this debate to Poly!. Otherwise please adhere to the 48.67% Serious threshold for posts here at COunterglow as mandated by our EU Charter.
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Old 07-11-2002, 17:22:32   #149
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Can't we just step outside and relieve the bladder ?
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Old 07-11-2002, 17:24:33   #150
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We only have one betwen us?
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