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Old 06-11-2002, 14:52:02   #51
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"And Iraq harbors terrorists just like AFghanistan."

Like whom ? A bunch of old palestinian terrorists from the secular factions, if that.

"Have you not noticed the troops we have in Yemen? Did you not see the AQ terrorists with a truck load of explosives that we blew out of the desert?"

Well that's Yemen.

"I think you'll find Hussein is supporting those that support these attacks you think we don't notice. You're the one not noticing things."

Saddam is not sponsoring islamist terror. It doesn't make sense for him, and there is no evidence, however circumstantial, to support it.
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Old 06-11-2002, 14:53:06   #52
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
Saying that it's not OK for a country to just invade another country whenever they feel like it and with little useful evidence about why it's a good idea seems pretty sensible to me.

And there hasn't been any serious evidence that Iraq could attack the US with WMD or had anything to do with 9/11.

The problem with your war on terror policy is not that we don't agree with the aim but that we don't always agree with the means. There isn't just one way to deal with things which we are trying to hamper.
There is only one way to deal with terrorists because negotiations and sanctions and weapons inspectors seem to do oh so much. And have you even considered that it may not be just about us? Roland bitches that we don't care about other people being killed by terrorists. Then you say there's no evidence Iraq can attack us. Hey, he's paying families of suicide bombers. So the next time a bomber he supports blows some Europeans up, don't come bitching to us about us not doing anything.
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Old 06-11-2002, 14:54:22   #53
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Originally posted by Roland

Well that's Yemen.
Hey dipshit. You're the one that mentioned us not doing anything in Yemen. So to try and offhandedly dismiss Yemen means you offhandedly dismiss your own argument. Thanks for the support.
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Old 06-11-2002, 14:59:42   #54
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"Hey, he's paying families of suicide bombers."

In Israel. And so do the Saudis.

"So the next time a bomber he supports blows some Europeans up, don't come bitching to us about us not doing anything."

Judging from the things you do I'd often prefer you do nothing.

I'm getting tired of a dialogue where the only answer to "Saddam is not tied to AQ" is "You condone terror because you deny Saddam is tied to AQ"

That's what works in US politics. How about trying an argument here ?
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:00:38   #55
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Invading countries and throwing your weight around pisses people off more and more and creates more and more terrorists amongst people who aren't fundamentalist nutters. That's what Roland meant about your policy seeming counterproductive to us. You can't kill all terrorists and you can't stop attacks.

It might be necessary to invade Iraq, hopefully not, but it might. If that happens it's going to then involve a lengthy and expensive occupation to keep the peace in what is a very volatile region. It's not as simple as just invading, getting rid of Saddam and leaving.

Israel and the Palestinians all seem as bad as each other to me, Hussein funds the suicide bombing palestinians the US funds and equips the Israeli military. I have no idea what the solution to that is but the peace process there seemed to be going relatively well for that region until Sharon got into power.

You basically came up with the answer to this, until people take more time to understand each other and the different ways they think there'll always be problems.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:01:23   #56
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"You're the one that mentioned us not doing anything in Yemen."

I said you tend to ignore the facts when it comes to discussions about YOUR policy. And you brought up Yemen in reply to Saddam. That's it.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:01:58   #57
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Anti terrorism is basically a police and intelligence operation. Find out where they are and what they are doing and stop them before they can do it. Or catch them afterwards.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:05:29   #58
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You don't know how much I'd like to call Saudi Arabia on their back stabbing. I've alluded to how much I despise it in my traditional back handed fashion.

And I don't care if Saddam is or isn't tied to AQ. I've never meant to imply that this is just about AQ. He supports terrorism in general. And blasting him out of power, I think, could solve a ton of problems. And fine, when we do nothing don't bitch about it, like you just did 5 or 6 posts up above. It's awfully nonsequitir. Like most of you waffling during arguments.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:12:46   #59
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He wasn't bitching about you doing nothing in that post above. He was bitching about it being your war on terrorism when terrorism is a world problem and a lot of the world doesn't think that a traditional war is the best approach.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:14:50   #60
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"And I don't care if Saddam is or isn't tied to AQ. I've never meant to imply that this is just about AQ. He supports terrorism in general."

His support is very limited and barely to not US-related.

"And blasting him out of power, I think, could solve a ton of problems."

And create a ton of new ones.

"And fine, when we do nothing don't bitch about it, like you just did 5 or 6 posts up above."

You still don't get the point. It is just about your lame ass argument that we somehow don't understand the terrorist threat, and in that argument the fact that we know we are targets too gets lost. It is construed as if it were only a US problem.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:20:59   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Invading countries and throwing your weight around pisses people off more and more and creates more and more terrorists amongst people who aren't fundamentalist nutters.
In all honesty, this argument always seemed weak to me. We expect Ams and Euros to understand their enemies and feel their pain but are perfectly open to throwing about statements about Arabs to the effect that they are some kind of mindless untermenschen who can't control their hatreds and act like rational human beings. I can't recall last time I saw someone expound upon how the muslim states should change their policies in order not to provoke justified western hatered, after all...
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:25:20   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roland
You still don't get the point. It is just about your lame ass argument that we somehow don't understand the terrorist threat, and in that argument the fact that we know we are targets too gets lost. It is construed as if it were only a US problem.
Yanks have a certain right to bitch about that. It wasn't ant home grown muslim terrorists that perpetrated 911. Apart from the Saudis, many of these gents where European citizens. You could say we failed to exercise our due diligence as far as that vaunted intelligence you claim to be the proper response to terrorism goes and left the US to pick up the bill. I'd be miffed about "allies" like that as well.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:28:31   #63
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I think the argument has its limitations, but it's a simple fact that there is a lot of mostly irrational resentment against the west, and that America is applying a screaming double standard when it comes to arab countries vs Israel. Giving that extra fuel is a negative that needs to be considered.

"I can't recall last time I saw someone expound upon how the muslim states should change their policies in order not to provoke justified western hatered, after all..."

Ehm... we're telling them all the time what to change, don't we ?
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:32:52   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by moomin
In all honesty, this argument always seemed weak to me. We expect Ams and Euros to understand their enemies and feel their pain but are perfectly open to throwing about statements about Arabs to the effect that they are some kind of mindless untermenschen who can't control their hatreds and act like rational human beings. I can't recall last time I saw someone expound upon how the muslim states should change their policies in order not to provoke justified western hatered, after all...
Look at what happened in Ireland. Or any country that got invaded. People feeling their homes are in danger want to fight back. Actually look at the demand for blood from the US after 9/11 how many times did we see perfectly sane rational posters here saying they'd be happy if the US just 'glassed' the whole ME?

The US and Europe and the muslim states need to change their policies so that they all get along better. That's one of the reasons why this French - German stitch up on CAP reform is so shit. You get all this European criticism of the US about the effects it's agricultural subsidies have around the third world and then we (the EU) can't even get our own situation sorted out.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:35:25   #65
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"Apart from the Saudis, many of these gents where European citizens."

What ?
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:36:44   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by moomin
Yanks have a certain right to bitch about that. It wasn't ant home grown muslim terrorists that perpetrated 911. Apart from the Saudis, many of these gents where European citizens. You could say we failed to exercise our due diligence as far as that vaunted intelligence you claim to be the proper response to terrorism goes and left the US to pick up the bill. I'd be miffed about "allies" like that as well.
And since then there have been a lot of arrests in Europe. I don't think that we had any idea what was going to happen and neither did the US intelligence services. London was, in a way, lucky 'cause the attack that was supposed to go from here was stuck when Blair grounded all our flights.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:40:52   #67
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You'll never understand why we think what we think and we'll never understand why you think what you think. We're just different people.
That is so damn wrong if you’re saying that because the EU and the US have differences of opinion now, they always will and so they shouldn’t bother. In fact, it’s on the verge of…what’s the word…the thing that soldiers have to do, they aren’t people, they are the enemy, different, scary.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:44:30   #68
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I think you missed my point Sean.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:47:11   #69
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You took that totally out of context. It was said to underline the inherent differences in cultures. Stop trying to spin it to look like I said I was speaking about people being my enemy. I never even came close to saying that.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:47:32   #70
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Yes, I ducked. Better luck next time.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:49:06   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
You took that totally out of context. It was said to underline the inherent differences in cultures. Stop trying to spin it to look like I said I was speaking about people being my enemy. I never even came close to saying that.
I know, I perhaps shouldn’t have quoted it like that. What I meant was, if your solution to that was to ignore other nations and cultures because they would never agree, that would be a bad thing. If your solution was to carry on but accept that they wouldn’t agree, that’s fine. It was just ambiguous.
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:52:39   #72
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Or carry on and everyone work to understand each other, even better!
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Old 06-11-2002, 15:56:07   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom

People feeling their homes are in danger want to fight back. Actually look at the demand for blood from the US after 9/11 how many times did we see perfectly sane rational posters here saying they'd be happy if the US just 'glassed' the whole ME?
I expect most people come to some point where they express sentiments like that. Venting, I think, is a contructive process. But once you've done that, we expect most people to shrug and get on with business as rational, empathic human beings. In the Arab case, somehow this same norm doesn't seem to apply - how come they not only understood but expected to nurse their grievances beyond any reasonable level?

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Old 06-11-2002, 16:04:15   #74
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Originally posted by Sean
I know, I perhaps shouldn’t have quoted it like that. What I meant was, if your solution to that was to ignore other nations and cultures because they would never agree, that would be a bad thing. If your solution was to carry on but accept that they wouldn’t agree, that’s fine. It was just ambiguous.
It was ambiguous because I didn't want to make a statement about either one of those paths. I don't think there will ever be a solution.
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Old 06-11-2002, 16:08:35   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by moomin
In the Arab case, somehow this same norm doesn't seem to apply...
Well it applies to most arabs, there aren't 200 million suicide bombers at the gate. There's still a difference to say latin america, where people would have more reason to hate the US but don't go on suicide bombings...
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Old 06-11-2002, 16:33:37   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by moomin
I expect most people come to some point where they express sentiments like that. Venting, I think, is a contructive process. But once you've done that, we expect most people to shrug and get on with business as rational, empathic human beings. In the Arab case, somehow this same norm doesn't seem to apply - how come they not only understood but expected to nurse their grievances beyond any reasonable level?
I'm sure that after that outpouring of emotion and most people calmed down there were a few people who went to join up with the US military after 9/11. I don't think it's confined to Arabs and it doesn't take many people becoming terrorists to cause a lot of problems. I'm not talking about millions of people, just tens.
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Old 06-11-2002, 16:36:08   #77
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And no, I'm not saying that joining the US military is exactly the same as being a terrorist but that wanting to fight for revenge is the same instinct. The difference being that we'd hope that the terrorists were misguided in who they want to target for that revenge. ie. Hopefully you aren't getting people joining the US army who want to kill all arabs as revenge, but could you say for certain that there are none like that who did?
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Old 06-11-2002, 16:44:16   #78
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I'm sure many did. But they still hope to be directed in doing so. Guided as it were. Else then should've and could've just gone down to the moqsue in town and shot the place up.
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Old 06-11-2002, 16:57:42   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
I'm sure that after that outpouring of emotion and most people calmed down there were a few people who went to join up with the US military after 9/11. I don't think it's confined to Arabs and it doesn't take many people becoming terrorists to cause a lot of problems. I'm not talking about millions of people, just tens.
I quite agree: even in the Arab world, the number of people who choose the terrorist path is infinitesimal. You could well argue that they are all madmen: so why should we adopt policies to please that lunatic fringe?
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Old 06-11-2002, 16:57:44   #80
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Well people were getting beaten up in the US for looking middle eastern as well weren't they.
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Old 06-11-2002, 16:59:22   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by moomin
I quite agree: even in the Arab world, the number of people who choose the terrorist path is infinitesimal. You could well argue that they are all madmen: so why should we adopt policies to please that lunatic fringe?
I never said you (or we) should. We should pursue policies that mean the world gets to be a better place for everyone.
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:02:05   #82
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Well people were getting beaten up in the US for looking middle eastern as well weren't they.
Indeed they were. I find that I still can't look at Middle Eastern looking people and quesiton their motives.

I wasn't trying to disavow your point any. Just go off on a tangent. Those people joined the military looking for guidance in their actions instead of beating people up on the streets. Perhaps a more noble course of action depending on your point of view.
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:05:22   #83
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I never said you (or we) should. We should pursue policies that mean the world gets to be a better place for everyone.
Ah. I guess you'll find a lot of people who disagree about that.
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:05:57   #84
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I never said you (or we) should. We should pursue policies that mean the world gets to be a better place for everyone.
We just differ on what those policies are.
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:12:56   #85
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Originally posted by moomin
I quite agree: even in the Arab world, the number of people who choose the terrorist path is infinitesimal. You could well argue that they are all madmen: so why should we adopt policies to please that lunatic fringe?
I doubt anything short of collective conversion to stone age islam or collective suicide of the west would please them.

The problem is more with the sympathizer field that works as a supporter and recruitment pool. And the Israelis have shown us how to take suicide bombings from the fringe into the mainstream among arabs/muslims.
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:17:18   #86
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So the next time a bomber he supports blows some Europeans up, don't come bitching to us about us not doing anything.

frankly stupid points, and there were others.

- We, in Europe, haven't discovered terrorism the 9/11. The brits discovered it thanks to jewish extremists (king david hotel in the 40s'), the French in Algeria in the 60s', the Germans in the munich olympics, etc. and of course we've had many random bombing campaigns since then, 2 massive ones in Paris in the 90s. We didn't come crying then, so don't lecture us. You're just waking up to it today, welcome to the world, it's been happening for some time already though. But of course it had to happen to you to be a problem.

- you might have notice that its 'lack of support' costed France a few dead de-miners in Afghanistan, 12 deads engineers in Pakistan, and a sunken boat in Yemen. There was also tremendous sympathy in this country during the 9/11, as was seen during the 14th of july parade (with the cadets of West Point and NY firefighters getting the biggest cheers, yes in Paris) So don't be so fucking simplistic as in 'our allies are chickening out bla bla'.

- What gets on my nerves about the yanks is how fucking binary they are, good/evil type of crap. If you can't understand that misguided policies, like your blind support to Israel, is fueling extremism, then you'll never win this war. Every 'terrorist' (or civilian) that Israel kills by entering the west bank creates two more palestinian willing to sacrifice their lives. Why? because it's worth shit, and because it easy then to be brainwashed by extremists when you have nothing to hope for. You can only undermine terrorism by looking at the bigger picture. Bin Laden is a pain? well, you trained him, and supported a thouroughly corrupted/relious extremist regime in Saudi Arabia, where ALMOST ALL the highjackers came from (and not from Europe as I read). Isn't time to look at Saudi Arabia, then? Irak is a pain? sure, get rid of it, I favour that too, but what the fuck are you going to do with a 'liberated ' iRak and the kurdish problem? is it bad that we ask for fucking points like that BEFORE you stir the hornet's nest?

I've got more to say, but I'm going home
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:23:52   #87
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I have to say, I think maroule summarised that pretty neatly. Just a bit of look before you leap and think 2 stages on would be useful.

Of course, rhetoric is useful in the right places. Let the mission drive the rhetoric though - don't let the rhetoric drive the mission.
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:32:33   #88
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While there's no trace of Osama or Omar, AQ is fully operational, US "homeland security" is a chaos, and their radical islamist power base looks to be growing solidly.
AQ is fully operational? What major ops has it undertaken against us recenty?

Of course HS is chaos, Reps and Dems got in a tussle over union affiliation, so it stalled. Stall's over!

I'd like to hear more about this 'power base growth'...where and in what way?

As for no trace of O&O, do you really need us to run DNA tests on every pile of vulture crap we come across?
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:37:46   #89
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"What major ops has it undertaken against us recenty?"

Against the US, or "us" as in "the West" ?

"Of course HS is chaos, Reps and Dems got in a tussle over union affiliation, so it stalled. Stall's over!"

Like that department will change anything. I guess the best about it is its funny name.

"I'd like to hear more about this 'power base growth'...where and in what way?"

Pakistani elections, for starters ?

"As for no trace of O&O"

It's pretty certain that Omar is alive. For Osama nobody really knows.
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:40:06   #90
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"Hey, he's paying families of suicide bombers."

In Israel. And so do the Saudis.

"So the next time a bomber he supports blows some Europeans up, don't come bitching to us about us not doing anything."

Judging from the things you do I'd often prefer you do nothing.

I'm getting tired of a dialogue where the only answer to "Saddam is not tied to AQ" is "You condone terror because you deny Saddam is tied to AQ"

That's what works in US politics. How about trying an argument here ?
If we take down Saddam and install a pro-western regime, will we still need the Saudis? (Yes this also applies to every other nation in the region that pays us lip service but supports Islamists behind our backs.)
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:44:37   #91
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"If we take down Saddam and install a pro-western regime, will we still need the Saudis?"

Who really needs the Saudis anyway ? It will reduce their clout from oil supplies, that's about it.

However there are some annoying little details about installing a pro-western regime in Iraq....
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Old 06-11-2002, 17:47:52   #92
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Originally posted by Roland
"What major ops has it undertaken against us recenty?"

Against the US, or "us" as in "the West" ?

"Of course HS is chaos, Reps and Dems got in a tussle over union affiliation, so it stalled. Stall's over!"

Like that department will change anything. I guess the best about it is its funny name.

"I'd like to hear more about this 'power base growth'...where and in what way?"

Pakistani elections, for starters ?

"As for no trace of O&O"

It's pretty certain that Omar is alive. For Osama nobody really knows.
Us as in my native country.

We don't know how the dept. will change things until it can get to work, but it hasn't been able to until now. Let's see how it looks in a year.

We already knew about Pakistan, we knew about it when we chose to dance with the Devil last year; this changes nothing.

For all the talk, Omar was targeted because he just got in the way. He's nobody. As for Osama, a Pakistani official said it best : "He's laying at the bottom of tons of rock in a collapsed cave, and there are now hundreds of collapsed caves in those rugged mountains, and no one is going to move all those tons of rock in all those hundreds of caves in those rugged mountains just to find one man!"
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Old 06-11-2002, 19:37:34   #93
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Originally posted by Roland
I wonder how many gazing errors you have to make to concede a point...
I wonder if you even HAVE a point outside of the US is always wrong.

Quote:
Anyway, the economy is set for the next recession (mostly Greenspan's and Rubin's fault, but the Bushies made it even worse).
That's an unsubstaniated OPINION, not a fact.
Quote:
The "war on terror" is going nowhere since Afghanistan.
Really?
We just blew up 6 assholes in Yemen, 4 more were arrested in Hong Kong, and there has been NO ATTACKS on US personel or property except for a drive by in Kuwait which cost the terrorists their lives.
Your definition of "going nowhere" is as simple-minded as it is incorrect.
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US foreign policy is losing international support at a record rate.
Really?
Mexico (a security council memeber) just annouced they support the new US resolution, and in fact, the ONLY opposition is now France.
Saddam announced today he would abide by any new resolution, no matter what the provisions.
Losing support?
Dream on.

Quote:
I won't go through the laundry list - suggest a topic.
This is why your full of shit Roland, YOU NEVER back it up, you just make the "Us sucks" with the gay French hand flip, and insist all will be gloom and doom IN THE FUTURE.

It's also why so many view you as anti-US, you never provide a argument, you expect me to provide a postion for YOU to attack.
Sorry, YOU said Bush was a disaster.

PROVE IT.

You never have yet.
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Old 06-11-2002, 19:39:49   #94
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Originally posted by Roland
Apart from the usual fun with Bush, I've always said that he's of average intelligence. Politically the man is pretty much a mystery. Populist talk, a probably honestly simplistic worldview, easily reconciled with a stunning level of corruption.

That he is resonating with the American public is telling us a lot about the Yanks.
How is the level of corruption stunning? Please compare it to the previous few administrations.
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Old 06-11-2002, 19:43:19   #95
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He can't, he'll make up some bullshit about how we all "know" it's true, and then move on.
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Old 06-11-2002, 19:59:58   #96
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Haven't you guys solved all the world's problems yet? I expect it to be done before we reach Cbeast.
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Old 06-11-2002, 20:05:45   #97
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(In fact, HBO is running a documentry made by a Democratic reporter that went on the campaign trail with Bush in 2000, it shows him as quick witted, and extremly capable).
I saw that last night. It changed my opinons of him somewhat.
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Old 06-11-2002, 20:07:28   #98
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An interesting show.
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Old 06-11-2002, 20:07:55   #99
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It brought back memories.
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Old 06-11-2002, 20:08:54   #100
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