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Old 12-09-2002, 10:42:50   #201
King_Ghidra
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true - the tyranny of democracy

it's scary - i favour despotism, it's more accountable
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:43:51   #202
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Then we'd fucking nuke Russia, India, and all of Europe, Roland, if need be. And we do have the nuke capability to do so.

You really don't understand America, do you? We are not exactly reasonable people when we get ticked. Blair knows. That's why he's been such a whipping boy at times. You can see it in his eyes...
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:45:29   #203
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We haven't done it. The fact that Iraq -- and Saudi Arabia -- is still around is proof enough of our self-control.

But I want you to understand the depth of feeling on the matter over here, and the direction of that feeling.

A co-worker, yesterday: "Why bother invading Iraq? We should just nuke them -- what use is it just letting the equipment rust in some hole in Kansas? Just use it!

Me: It wouldn't be right. Besides, we'd be on everyone's shit list if we did that.

Co-worker: Who cares? Did the Soviet Union care about world opinion? No! They wanted to do something, they just sent in the tanks! Did anything happen to them because of that? Of course not! We should just go in there and get them, and forget about others' shit!

Please note I'm not supporting his opinion, just noting it.

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Old 12-09-2002, 10:45:49   #204
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
Then we'd fucking nuke Russia, India, and all of Europe, Roland, if need be. And we do have the nuke capability to do so.

You really don't understand America, do you? We are not exactly reasonable people when we get ticked. Blair knows. That's why he's been such a whipping boy at times. You can see it in his eyes...
rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish - you won't nuke shit

america is much more reasonable than you think - you understand the need for the rest of the world even if you don't like it
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:46:24   #205
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Bush has the says so for nukes at the moment. And we are moving to a completely automated system, accessible from the internet, according to the DoD, so anyone with the codes can log in, and plan anything from a simple recon flight to total nuclear destruction of the world can do so with the click of a mouse on a DoD site.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:46:49   #206
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Originally posted by Mightytree


I know you have, Chris. And no, I have not. But there's something like history. And there's also something like learning from history, which you guys obviously haven't had the opportunity to do yet. War is to be prevented because people will suffer, we get that hammered into our brains every day in school for 13 years and at some point you just get it. You on the other hand jump at every opportunity to start one.

Tell me Chris, would you want something like 9/11 to happen daily in the US? Would you want to be bombed?

That's a great point MT

In the UK we've learnt that military action against terrorists encourages them, and every civilian you kill by accident helps them recruit more and more people to their cause.

There is a fundamental difference between US and European attitudes that we'll never get over. It's not worth arguing about. We'll never agree because the environments in which we get brought up in give us such different attitudes to things.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:49:36   #207
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KG, not really. The world is interconnected, but you are forgetting that we will cut off our nose to spite our face if pissed at it enough. Pay attention to our history.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:50:52   #208
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I think DS is playin you guys.

Mikey, I said that like three pages ago, that the US and Europe are different animals.

Take this to the bank:

Saddam is gone, and soon, and nothing is going to change that.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:51:27   #209
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Then we'd fucking nuke Russia, India, and all of Europe, Roland, if need be. And we do have the nuke capability to do so.
And we have the capacity to fuckin' nuke you. So no.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:52:27   #210
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The european appeasement strategy against the US won't work. But as I said, either way, we'll profit from your Iraq adventure anyway....
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:52:38   #211
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And in America, by ignoring the terrorists, they are encouraged. At least with our own home grown ones. You got to go in and root them out. If their family gets mad, so fucking what? if the family is bad, you watch them, and when they go over, you eliminate them as well.

It's basic vermin control. When something becomes vermin, you eliminate it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:52:41   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom

It's not worth arguing about.
on CG it's not, but people keep on posting these sodding threads

so unless you want to start moderating them (god forbid) people aren't going to be able to help themsleves are they?

maybe CG should be declared a totally politics free zone but i don't see it somehow
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:52:48   #213
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forbidden thoughts. I saw this image that really made me laugh, but I'm not sure everyone here will appreciate it. Wondering whether to post it or not.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:53:34   #214
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Ha ha, we will charge ya double for all the oil we steal, and make you pay for the war.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:54:17   #215
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Chris! Shhhh!
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:54:56   #216
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This is getting rather out of hand. No one doubts the West (read: USA) can stop the growing threat of islamofascism in the ME if it really wants to - and while the toll in lifes might be high, and certianly not so one-sided some would like to belive - there'd be no need for any genocides either.

To trott out that tired old horse: it's not like the final exterminations of the Third Reich required a genocide of the German people. Many died, of course, but the objective - the utter destruction of Nazism as an politically effective ideology of state - was achieved without eradicating the Germans themselves. What needed total destruction, though, was not only the Nazi army but the Nazi society itself. And under application of enough Allied guns, lo and behold, Germany managed the transition from the Reich to the occassionally best pupil in the democratic school.

Could we (collectively spoken, but in practice we're talking America again) do something similar for ME? Possibly. I personally belive it would be realtively easy compared to what the Allies went thru', because not only is the US so staggeringly technologically superior to the opponents, but we already own the hearts of at least half the population.

There are tricky questions - is Islam salvagable or does it need to get the Nazi propaganda treatment? I think it might suffice to pull it's teeth like we once pulled Chrisianity's, but I don't really know.

The real trouble is what to do with the growing (if only for demographic reason) number of islamofascist that are harboured in the West. They might just disappear if their ME bases get totalled, much like Nazi's all over the world made themselves scarce after '45, or they might not - the curious notion of entitlement to utmost respect for every cultural identity, no matter how evil, has won much ground since then, after all. Anyhow, violence wont even begin to address that problem.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:55:40   #217
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DS:

Nobody suggested ignoring terrorism.

Chris:

Oil is a global commodity, you won't get shit apart from maybe Japan, and the dictator you'll install in Iraq will seek to get rid of you first thing in the morning.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:57:18   #218
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Moomin you want to occupy the entire muslim world ? Or what ?

Also you underestimate the differences between german and mainly arab societies.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:59:29   #219
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We plan to send in Jeb Bush under his new muslim name, Moonemmoreklodhopie to take over, and the Japs have lots of dough.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:00:50   #220
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He'd have to stone his daughter first to be a credible fundie though, would he not ?
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:01:05   #221
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Originally posted by Darkstar
And in America, by ignoring the terrorists, they are encouraged. At least with our own home grown ones. You got to go in and root them out. If their family gets mad, so fucking what? if the family is bad, you watch them, and when they go over, you eliminate them as well.

It's basic vermin control. When something becomes vermin, you eliminate it.
You don't ignore them. You do everything you can to stop them being able to operate but sending in the troops doesn't solve anything. We did it. It didn't work! It made things worse. The IRA killed 2000 people.

Would you send the Marines into Kansas to shoot anyone suspected of being a 'home grown' terrorist and if anyone else got killed in the process not give a shit? It's no different in Iraq or Afghanistan. The innocent people there are just as innocent as the people who died in the trade center and they are just as much real people with family and loved ones as the people who died in the trade center. Whatever you think of the terrorists those civilians are as human as you they are NOT vermin.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:03:04   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by moomin

There are tricky questions - is Islam salvagable
that is an amazing statement

amazingly ignorant

there's nothing wrong with islam, just the way it has been warped to suit bad people's goals
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:04:43   #223
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Quote:
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He'd have to stone his daughter first to be a credible fundie though, would he not ?
Bush daughters are quite good at getting stoned.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:05:06   #224
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Forbidden thoughts?

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Old 12-09-2002, 11:05:44   #225
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You'd do all kinds of drugs too if you were in that family.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:05:59   #226
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that's gonna cause trouble
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after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:06:50   #227
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Bush daughters are quite good at getting stoned.
Forbidden thoughts: They should move to Nigeria.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:10:53   #228
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Naw, gotta keep whitey out of Africa.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:11:34   #229
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Ha! Use the black afghan!
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:13:40   #230
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Why does it have to be a BLACK afghan?

Can't we all just get along?
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:14:47   #231
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Lots of people have suggested ignoring it. Or even worse, paying it off. To pay it off rewards it. Encourages more.

Roland, got enough nukes to spare? Are you confident they still work? We can run the list, and find out.

Honestly... when I think about the cost to my fellow humans for going into Iraq... I don't think it's worth it. For some reason, I think it's going to be a lot worse then anyone thinks it is. Any conflict is almost always more costly and longer then anyone ever thinks. Desert Storm was a fluke, in the history of conflicts.

If we are going after Saddam cause we don't like him... Bush #3 fininshing what Bush #1 started... then no. If he's working with our enemies though.... then we need to kill that vermin nest. We are willing to spend a few generations doing that.

My worry isn't that we cannot help the ME out of their enormous poverty... it is that most of what I've heard suggested is just not going to work. We are going to need to stay in Afghan for at least a couple of generations, rebuilding... and we get bored too darn quickly as a nation for slow things. Addressing anything? I have my doubts we will stick the course. We seem to be a man, upset and hurt by what's happened to family, looking for a fight. Not out to fix the world.

And why should we be fixing this stuff in the first place? Life is a Zero Sum Game. We are suppose to look out for ourselves while other people look out for themselves. We are a generous people (compared to some, anyways), and we like to help our neighbors. Is that what causes people to think we should help them out? We helped out one person not our own, so we have to help out everyone?

This is a Zero Sum Game. Don't for a moment think our deep thinkers giving input to the future have forgotten that. They haven't. It's just everyone else I worry about's input.

Well, I can see a lot of people had their minds made up before they stated what they think is the one and only truth and option. What a waste of everyone's time then...
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:22:42   #232
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"Roland, got enough nukes to spare? Are you confident they still work? We can run the list, and find out."

You do not think the french and russian nukes are enough to destroy the US ?

"Honestly... when I think about the cost to my fellow humans for going into Iraq... I don't think it's worth it."

Of course it isn't. But that is a non-issue.

"We are going to need to stay in Afghan for at least a couple of generations, rebuilding... and we get bored too darn quickly as a nation for slow things."

That's why you leave that to us whimpy euros.

"Life is a Zero Sum Game."

What is that supposed to mean in that context ?
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:22:57   #233
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What a waste of everyone's time then...
that is the countergow motto

if everyone stopped talking about this kind of shit we could cut out the middle man and get straight to the motto
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:23:14   #234
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Funko, I've said that before... but if push comes to shove, we'll put a bullet into the head of them all. Unless it takes a few years. That's the one thing a real long term solution has in it's favor... unless the terrorists can strike again, America won't keep it's fevered pitch.

The worst thing the terrorists could do is to make another attack against the US. They lay low, chill and plan... rebuild and study... and they can do it all again, but bigger next time, in just 4 or so years. America really has gone back to business at normal at home... instead of 'Did you let someone put a bomb in your luggage?' it's 'Are you a terrorists?' at the airport, but noone wants to really be bothered with security. So they aren't.

And only 2000? I'd have thought it was a lot more.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:25:09   #235
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Thankfully not.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:25:44   #236
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Although I am not sure 'only 2000' is the right way to phrase it I knew what you meant.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:25:50   #237
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Military "solutions" worked so well with the IRA and ETA, right....
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:30:01   #238
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Honestly? The French? Nope. The Russians? Which ones? You mean the real Russia or one of the former soviet states? Last I read, about 50% of all the nuclear grade material and weaponry of the former USSR has just disappeared... and what's left isn't usable or reliable. I'm curious of the base sources, but the Russians were exactly denying it.

You aren't remembering just how many are out for blood and not thinking about the human on the otherside, Roland.

ZSG. Exactly what it says. It's late for me, and I don't recall what I was thinking of precisely when I wrote that.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:31:13   #239
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Sorry Funko. I had a general impression that a lot more people had lost their life in that matter.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:32:11   #240
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Violent solutions only work when you are willing to finish the job, Roland. No half measures.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:34:30   #241
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Sorry Funko. I had a general impression that a lot more people had lost their life in that matter.
Doesn't count the people we killed or any of the other terrorist groups.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:35:00   #242
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Are you still argueing?
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:36:05   #243
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IIRC France has about 200-300 nuclear warheads submarine based. That is not enough to glass the entire the US but enough to destroy it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:37:20   #244
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Violent solutions only work when you are willing to finish the job, Roland. No half measures.
Of course. We only have to self-destruct the entire human race and voila, peace and quiet.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:39:01   #245
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Of course. We only have to self-destruct the entire human race and voila, peace and quiet.
Sounds good.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:41:53   #246
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That's Shrub's plan but I'm sure he'll mess it up.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:43:25   #247
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Let's start with the French.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:45:04   #248
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The French report they have surrendered after a vigorous 30 second defence.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:46:28   #249
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Not in my current EU2 game.
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Old 12-09-2002, 11:49:09   #250
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Not? 15 seconds then?
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