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Old 12-09-2002, 09:22:50   #151
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DS, in Afghanistan the NA fought most of the ground war, and more importantly, the ground dealamking.

Chris, what do you make of this story ? Humbug, or are there some generals on heavy drugs ?

Quote:
How We Won the War
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF


The American fleet confidently steamed off to war in the Persian Gulf recently — and promptly got creamed.

This was an elaborate war game, not the real thing, but it reminds us that an invasion of Iraq won't necessarily be a cakewalk. Moreover, a general who participated says that the war game was fiddled with in ways that raise questions about whether the government is returning to a Vietnam-style overoptimism and myopia.

The game, Millennium Challenge 2002, was the largest such simulation ever held, involving 13,500 people. It began, key participants say, with the Americans confidently assuming that they could intercept enemy communications and predict enemy movements.

But the enemy didn't cooperate. It used motorcycle couriers instead of radio and electronic messages, and sent orders as code words inserted into the muezzins' call to prayer — and this went right by the American intelligence analysts.

The upshot was that the enemy "sank" much of the American fleet as the exercise opened. Oops.

"It shows that a relatively primitive or unsophisticated enemy can find ways to surprise you," said Robert Oakley, a veteran American ambassador who played the role of the enemy leader in the war games.

Millennium Challenge was not directly about Iraq. It was scripted as a war against Iran set in 2007. Moreover, Saddam Hussein's best options were not available to the enemy, as the war games did not permit terrorist attacks in America, shelling of Israel, use of chemical or biological weapons, or urban fighting.

Still, the $235 million exercise should teach us one clear lesson relating to Iraq: Hubris kills.

This was a simulation. So the Pentagon miraculously reconstituted its sunken fleet and attacked again.

That's standard for war games, where the idea is not just to win but also to test equipment and concepts. But the absurdism got worse. The people running the war games even ordered the enemy to pull its forces back in order to allow American units to land safely, according to Paul Van Riper, a retired Marine lieutenant general, who played the enemy's military commander.

"Then I asked to use chemical weapons," General Van Riper recalled. "That was refused."

The people running the war games even ordered the enemy to disclose some of its troop locations so that the Americans could find them, General Van Riper said. And when the enemy figured out how to move its chemical weapons around so that the Americans could not find them, that caused problems for the simulation — so control of the chemical weapons was handed over to the Americans, who then managed to destroy them.

The Pentagon view of the exercise, not surprisingly, is more glowing: U.S. technology and coordination shined (and the U.S. crushed the enemy in the end). Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, indicated that such war games are artificial scenarios that inevitably require a certain amount of unreality, like reviving the dead.

"I absolutely believe that it was not rigged," General Pace said. Allowing the enemy to use chemical weapons against the Americans, he said, would have disrupted the entire exercise and added to its expense.

O.K., it's true that war games are not hell. The test will be whether the Pentagon studies the mistakes made, applies lessons to Iraq planning, and sticks pins into Bushies who are unreasonably overconfident about Iraq.

I asked General Van Riper if the war games should make us nervous. "There's an unfortunate culture developing in the American military that maybe should make you nervous," he said. "I don't see the rich intellectual discussions that we had after Vietnam. I see mostly slogans, clichés and unreadable materials."

General Van Riper said the mood reminded him of the mindset in Vietnam: excessive faith in technology, inadequate appreciation of the fog of war, lack of understanding of the enemy, and simple hubris.

Myself, I'm a wimp on Iraq: I'm in favor of invading, but only if we can win easily. So can we?

I'd feel reassured if the decision to invade was being made honestly, after a rigorous weighing of all the risks. Instead I detect a cheery Vietnam-style faith that obstacles can be assumed away.

That only works in war games.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:23:13   #152
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MT, that's why we like to fight our wars elsewhere. We haven't had a true war on our soil since, what, 1812? Well, the Japanese occupied the Alusian islands during WW2, but that wasn't the mainland, or so we say. Hell, I don't think most Americans knew that had happened, during or after.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:24:54   #153
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The US fought a war at home. It was devastating, especially when you consider that the population was smaller.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:28:14   #154
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Roland... I haven't forgotten about the NA in Afghan.

And that sounds about right for some war games. Ask those that have participated...
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:28:39   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mightytree
Maybe it's about time you have a war in your very own country, so you see what it's like. It's just all too comfortable for you sitting on your fat arses watching other people fight and die on TV, and then bragging about what a great country you are. What do you think it would be like to have 9/11 for a couple of months every day?
Your talking to wrong guy, I own a CIB for both Grenada and Sinai, I have been dude, have you?

I also was there for that little slice of heaven we like to call 9/11, read this tough guy:

http://www.freefirezone.net/showthread.php?threadid=110

I wrote that on that very night, and I still can't look at it.

Don't tell me about sitting on my ass, your talkin out yours when you say that to me.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:29:17   #156
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Funny, civil wars aren't counted, and neither are revolutions. I wonder why? They were never counted in school, anyways...
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:31:13   #157
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Roland, that is a bit of a smokescreen, it turns out that is misleading, the actual game was conducted a few years ago, and the country was Iran, not Iraq.

The winning guy is trying to sell his game plan to game company I hear.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:34:14   #158
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IIRC, the UK hasn't fought a ground campaign at home since Culloden. In WW1 and 2, they were subject to attack from Zeppelins, planes, and missiles.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:36:40   #159
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Before WWII, Germany hadn't fought at home since Napoleon's time (if you don't count a brief period in 1914 when the Russians invaded East Prussia).

That kind of argument is just a smoke screen.

Maybe if you Euros got your hands dirty again you'd realize you can't talk to these jerks, only kill em.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:37:02   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris
Your talking to wrong guy, I own a CIB for both Grenada and Sinai, I have been dude, have you?

I also was there for that little slice of heaven we like to call 9/11, read this tough guy:

http://www.freefirezone.net/showthread.php?threadid=110

I wrote that on that very night, and I still can't look at it.

Don't tell me about sitting on my ass, your talkin out yours when you say that to me.
I know you have, Chris. And no, I have not. But there's something like history. And there's also something like learning from history, which you guys obviously haven't had the opportunity to do yet. War is to be prevented because people will suffer, we get that hammered into our brains every day in school for 13 years and at some point you just get it. You on the other hand jump at every opportunity to start one.

Tell me Chris, would you want something like 9/11 to happen daily in the US? Would you want to be bombed?
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:38:30   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roland


Deterrence doesn't work against terrorists. You'll just escalate this "war".
They've already escalated the war. Haven't you been paying attention?

When it first happened, everyone I spoke with said, "nuke 'em". The more thoughtful ones said, "make sure we know who did this, then nuke 'em".

Speaking with folks out there yesterday, "nuke 'em" is still a popular sentiment.

When you see Bush's approval ratings going down, you might want to consider that before blithely saying that Bush has no support among Americans for the war.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:38:46   #162
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"Before WWII, Germany hadn't fought at home since Napoleon's time (if you don't count a brief period in 1914 when the Russians invaded East Prussia)."

War of 1866.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:39:42   #163
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Quote:
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Before WWII, ...
Your point?
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:40:42   #164
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The only way to stop is to kill the guys that do it.

Let me tell you something, terrorists are human, subject to the same fear and threats everybody else is. You get a fw who fear nothing, you can never scare them, but most are fence sitters who join when they see that are in no real danger.
You give them a bloody nose, that kind runs for it's life.

That is what this is all about, teaching punks a real lesson, you want to fight us, get yourself a real army, becuase as terrorists we will hunt your useless asses all over the planet.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:42:34   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roland
"Before WWII, Germany hadn't fought at home since Napoleon's time (if you don't count a brief period in 1914 when the Russians invaded East Prussia)."

War of 1866.
Prussia invaded Austria, and kicked it's ass at Sadowa.

That ain't Germany Roland, and you know it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:43:24   #166
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"They've already escalated the war. Haven't you been paying attention?"

As there supposed to be a point in there, somewhere ?
You can limit the problem by military actions as those in Afghanistan. You can't solve it.

"When you see Bush's approval ratings going down, you might want to consider that before blithely saying that Bush has no support among Americans for the war."

Where did I say that ? Also, Iraq has absofuckinlutely nothing to do with this.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:44:18   #167
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Prussia invaded Austria, and kicked it's ass at Sadowa.

That ain't Germany Roland, and you know it.
Don't give me that bollocks. The war was also fought in Hannover, Saxony and Bavaria.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:48:53   #168
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If you call moving in troops and accepting surrender, I suppose you can add Holstein also, it fits.

The last war on US soil was in 1898, according to the VA:

http://www.va.gov/pressrel/amwars01.htm

That's only 104 years ago, and if you want to use Roland style principlaities, it moves up to 1941, Hawaii, and 1943 Alaska.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:50:32   #169
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I'm sorry -- I thought you had, over on Poly; it certainly has been voiced there and elsewhere.

Iraq has a lot to do with it, on many different levels, which I'll get into when I'm not half asleep.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:51:12   #170
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I think the continent is different. To get to somebody, you just have to walk. WW2 featured alot of offensive weapons designed to wreak havoc behind the lines, thus there was starvation.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:52:49   #171
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It was a bit more. At least the bavarians fought a battle.

Anyway the "war at home" thing argument is about experiencing massive death and destruction among the civilian population. The US had that experience in part in 1861/65, Germany and most of europe had it in 1939/1945. Makes for different perceptions.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:56:49   #172
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Does now. Some of Al-Qada are sheltering in Iraq.

We get bombed or assassinated once a month. Doesn't phase us. Check out abortion bombings... it's the local home grown wacko terrorist of ours... the pro-lifers who are so pro, they kill women, nurses, doctors, innocents just to stop a woman from possbily getting an abortion. It's just not worth covering... and has died down as they lay low lately. Too busy waving the flag at them moment, I suspect. Opportunities to spread their fanaticism to a whole mess load of pagans that haven't heard the word...

Germans got dumped on for generations. People still fear the Germans will get their asses in gear, raise up the banners, and go to war again. The German people waged a mighty effort, and caused all the world that we care about to deal with it. I wouldn't doubt you guys are constantly told... don't do it. And the only thing worse then fighting a war and winning, is fighting a war and losing. Which the Germans did twice in a short few generations. Cannot imagine why they'd be wary of doing so again.

But we have fought those same wars, and won. Took Nam to teach us better, and our military has had some practice to make sure it's over Nam.

And it's silly to expect other people to learn from your advice. Although smart ones might learn from example.

Humm... what other cliches can I throw in? Ah, yes...
History just repeats. Only the names change.
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Old 12-09-2002, 09:58:10   #173
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US forces saw it up close, they liberated large portions of it, and US forces did a lot of the damage, we know full well what a shooting war is like.

Do you guys REALLY think Iraqis will fight for Saddam?
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:02:35   #174
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More then fought the first time, that's for certain. Urban fighting is nasty, and people always fight like the dickens when it's their own home and family they are defending.

And they'll be a bitch during occupation. They actually have reason to hate us. We actually have been trying to be a pain to every single citizen of their land. Our government has been harrassing them, trying to get them mad at their leadership. All that seems to have done is cemented his leadership.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:03:33   #175
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"Does now. Some of Al-Qada are sheltering in Iraq."

First that's just claims, and second similar claims can be made about Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and who knows whom.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:05:08   #176
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"Do you guys REALLY think Iraqis will fight for Saddam?"

Who are you asking there ?

I think it will be tough for him to get the ordinary military fight, but the RG probably will. When cornered he'll try to use B and C weapons. So the result is clear, the cost is not...
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:07:24   #177
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Yeah. I noticed how convinent that is. I wondered how many other did. Terrorism, like Drugs, will always be like that too, so long as America is out to fight it everywhere in the world.

But we have photographic proof that they are in Iraq. Should be presented to the UN, today I think, by Bush. Unless we are too embarassed to show them because most of A-Q is being hosted by the Kurds.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:07:39   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk



When it first happened, everyone I spoke with said, "nuke 'em". The more thoughtful ones said, "make sure we know who did this, then nuke 'em".

Speaking with folks out there yesterday, "nuke 'em" is still a popular sentiment.

but who and where are you going to nuke?

you can't just toss a few icbms into the desert and hope for the best or you'll end up putting more inocents into their graves (and screwing up your oil supplies)

If you have to kill terrorist leaders then doing it with bullets and spec ops sounds like the best option.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:14:39   #179
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but who and where are you going to nuke?

you can't just toss a few icbms into the desert and hope for the best or you'll end up putting more inocents into their graves (and screwing up your oil supplies)

If you have to kill terrorist leaders then doing it with bullets and spec ops sounds like the best option.
You don't understand.

We can do more than "toss a few ICBMs' into the desert".

We can glaze the region from the Mediteranean to the Persian Gulf.

It wouldn't be productive, but we can do it.

Beleive me, a lot of us wanted to.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:18:22   #180
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That wouldn't be wise... we'd probably kick up too much dust, creating a nuclear winter. We only have 2 years of food stockpiled to feed all the people... and there is no way the government would actually distribute that. It's get packed up in the spare Congressional super bunker, the one that nobody goes to...
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:18:45   #181
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But we have photographic proof that they are in Iraq.
Lol - the ones in the north that Saddam doesn't control, yes...
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:23:15   #182
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Yep. But that's a technicality, Roland. If the American people cannot grasp how Clinton broke the law, do you expect them to comprehend the subtle difference in whether the A-Q are in an area Saddam has not authority over? It's all Iraq to us.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:24:39   #183
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Probably. Although for Clinton, it might have been possible to explain it if it hadn't been for Starr and co...
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:24:52   #184
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You don't understand.

We can do more than "toss a few ICBMs' into the desert".

We can glaze the region from the Mediteranean to the Persian Gulf.

It wouldn't be productive, but we can do it.

Beleive me, a lot of us wanted to.
you're insane

you and the terrorists are welcome to each other - you all want the same thing after all
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:25:56   #185
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The question isn't what the US will do to hunt down and exterminate Al-Quaida and it's assorted similarly-minded islamofascist brethren in the ME. Contrary to popular European opinion, violence can actually solve that problem - it's just a question of application of scale.

The interesting problems will come when the hunting will go on to our own societies - more violence will certianly not solve the problem of Al-Quaida cells in Washington.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:27:33   #186
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Well how would violence solve that ? You'd have to exterminate about 1 billion people to be sure.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:29:22   #187
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One of the many things Americans are not afraid to do... exterminate entire races of people. We've got plenty of experience at it, and the leaders to do it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:30:05   #188
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I don't agree that the RG will fight Roland, more likely they will surrender, they know the US won't kill them and will feed them.

This picture of fanatical resistance is totally unrealistic.

However, the WMD, IE chemical weapons is possible, but the US took steps to improve recon since 91, scud hunting should be better this time.

Ol Saddam is reaching the end of the road.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:30:10   #189
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You wouldn't survive that one.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:31:05   #190
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Would be nice if all simply falls like a house of cards but don't bet on it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:33:20   #191
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Wouldn't survive what?

And I don't think they'd be WW2 Japanese dedicated. Just a lot more trouble then we've seen so far in this matter, Chris.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:33:34   #192
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I don't see them fighting for that clown, especially if they know some Iraqi dude will take over.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:34:58   #193
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"Wouldn't survive what?"

That genocide attempt.

"I don't see them fighting for that clown, especially if they know some Iraqi dude will take over."

You forgot a not in there. The thing they have to fear is revenge from Iraqis.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:35:20   #194
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They will be demoralized, shell shocked form heavy bombardment, and know they have no chance.

No way you get heavy resistance.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:35:27   #195
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"We can do more than "toss a few ICBMs' into the desert".

We can glaze the region from the Mediteranean to the Persian Gulf.

It wouldn't be productive, but we can do it.

Beleive me, a lot of us wanted to."

Idiot. It is this exactly the sort of arrogance that you display to almost every facet of modern politics that will ensure there will always be plenty of new people who hate you enough to perform atrocities like 11/9
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:36:47   #196
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"They will be demoralized, shell shocked form heavy bombardment, and know they have no chance."

Not if they hide in the cities. Unless you bomb the cities. Which you may or may not do.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:37:01   #197
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We probably would Roland. That's what makes me sad about that. It's not like the world would even care. Feed you any line, and you guys would turn a blind eye. Just like always happens...
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:38:44   #198
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Well first you'd get anyone from Europe ober Russia to China and India united to contain the US. And until you achieve that goal there'll be enough ways to bring the Pakistani and maybe Iranian nukes to your happy little country.

It's simply unrealistic even if the political will were there.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:40:45   #199
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Hell, I was *afraid* we would lob some nukes! I knew that a lot more people were going to die, when I saw what was happening 9/11. There wasn't anything I could do for those it was happening to, but there were going to be a lot more following them. A lot more.

Best thing you can do is step aside and not get into the way... a mad mob is on the move... That's the part of the nature of Democracies... they are Mob Minded.
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Old 12-09-2002, 10:42:23   #200
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There was no nuclear option. Even while I think the US is ruled by a bunch of corrupt underlighted pocket fascists, I do not think your political system has degenerated that much yet.
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