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Old 11-09-2002, 23:44:35   #51
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Do terrorists, especially religiously based ones, really ever worry about the rationality of their actions? We might cringe from doing those things, but then we have a different world view from them. If you give in to their demands and prove that a little terrorism brings rewards they will only be embolden to continue to demand more and terrorize more.
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Old 11-09-2002, 23:46:29   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedFred
Afghanistan is not 'relatively safe', imho. The Taliban melted away, temporarily joined other groups or fled the country. Afghanistan is now like it was before the Taliban. Warlords in charge, little central authority outside Kabul; and kidnapping, piracy and opium exports all experiencing a huge increase.

A lot of thought went into routing the Taliban in Afghanistan; much less went into what happens afterward.
Rerlatively safe as not being a base for terrorist operations world wide. Of course the country has rarely been safe for it's own citizens for centuries and no one can change that, but it now has a promise of a better future than it did before. It will be up to the people if they wish to work for that future or against it.
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Old 11-09-2002, 23:48:04   #53
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Sean, I wish I could be that optimistic. Hatred and religious fundamentalism is stripping away the humanity from these people. The logic and reason centres of their brains are being bypassed.
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Old 11-09-2002, 23:48:20   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
Afghanistan is realitively safe now, although we will have to keep an eye on it. And very few civilians died, we did a good job of avoiding them as much as possible as oppesed to the terrorists you seem to support who seek them out. Frankly their country is alot better off without the Taliban. I would have prefered not to have to have gone in but then the Taliban made that choice for us.
1. Stop pissing me off with your ignorance and start reading my posts. We are not argueing wether terrorists are good people or not but how to react to the problem of terrorism. I never once said I supoorted them.

2. More civilians were killed in the Afghanistan bombings than in the WTC attack. I have about minus hope that it'll be any different in whatever country you plan to bomb back to stone age next.
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Old 11-09-2002, 23:52:31   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch


Rerlatively safe as not being a base for terrorist operations world wide. Of course the country has rarely been safe for it's own citizens for centuries and no one can change that, but it now has a promise of a better future than it did before. It will be up to the people if they wish to work for that future or against it.
Holy shit, do you really think now that you've bombed them back to the stone age there are suddenly no more terrorists around?!
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Old 11-09-2002, 23:59:20   #56
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Originally posted by walruskkkch
If that's what it takes. But I doubt we will need to do that. Removing Saddam will be a start and then focusing on eliminating terrorist supporting regimes will be next. Eventually when they have no where to hide and plan they will be less of threat. It will take time and effort but at least it has a better chance of eliminating the threat then just sticking your head and in the sand and saying "We agree with you, don't hurt us!" You know what the terrorists want, you willing to give it to them?
There'd be a lot more to say about that. I'm so happy Bush is in charge ( ) and not you, walrus.

I won't post on topic in this thread any more, it'll only lead to flaming.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:00:31   #57
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I'm inclined to agree with MT. If no one keeps their eye on the ball the Taliban could resurface in Afghanistan.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:01:31   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
Do terrorists, especially religiously based ones, really ever worry about the rationality of their actions?
While neither of us is really in a position to answer this, I would say that while the most extreme ones are nutcases, there are a lot of potential terrorists who will have severe reservations, moreso now than ever.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:07:01   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mightytree


1. Stop pissing me off with your ignorance and start reading my posts. We are not argueing wether terrorists are good people or not but how to react to the problem of terrorism. I never once said I supoorted them.

2. More civilians were killed in the Afghanistan bombings than in the WTC attack. I have about minus hope that it'll be any different in whatever country you plan to bomb back to stone age next.
I read your threads very carefully and that's what I see. You first justify the attacks of 9/11 as a reasonable response to US foreign policy and in course that helps justify their cause. I'll grant you may not support them in the sense of cheering them on but your ability to rationalize them lends them a support that is uninteneded.

There is not agreed upon figure for afghani deaths directly attributably to US activity. But I suppose that you wish all out future actions to have the figure of 3,000 as the amxim allowable civilian casualties? We almost got Saddam but he threw that kid in front of the tank and that made 3,000 so we had to stop. Look, we are going to minimalize civilian casualties as much as possible but you can't eliminate them in a war. And this is a war whether you want to recognize that fact or not and it is the terrorist that declared it not us.

The number of terrorist operating out of afghanistan is now minimal, and we continue to hunt them down as we can. Afhganistan is no longer a safe haven for them to set up operations, conduct planning and provide logistics. The situation would be worse if we chose the prefered course of the world and just talked about terrorism and did nothing. If there is terrorist threat it will orginate from some other country and if you would just join us we could stop them before they strike again or have some city turn into a mushroom cloud.

Unfortunately there are still places they can find safe haven and they will have to be dealt with.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:08:15   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sean

While neither of us is really in a position to answer this, I would say that while the most extreme ones are nutcases, there are a lot of potential terrorists who will have severe reservations, moreso now than ever.
And if you make it more difficult and dangerous for them then less will be likely to go to the extremes necessary to continue.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:08:27   #61
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*sigh*
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:11:52   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mightytree
2. More civilians were killed in the Afghanistan bombings than in the WTC attack. I have about minus hope that it'll be any different in whatever country you plan to bomb back to stone age next.
While I generally agree with you, Mt, this isn’t some kind of contest for who can rustle up the most confirmed dead.

Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
And if you make it more difficult and dangerous for them then less will be likely to go to the extremes necessary to continue.
If they aren’t in situations where they are driven to desparation they are less likely to go to those extremes, too. I personally don’t like the bullying approach.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:14:48   #63
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I think there is some confusion between making things difficult for terrorists to operate and the general conditions of a particular country. While there is some overlap that can never be eliminated one does not necessarily preclude the other. It's not a question of being a bully but if some guy is punching you then hiding behind someone else to get to them the other person is either going to have to get out of the way or take sides and the consequences. It's their choice.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:17:04   #64
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Ah yes, I forgot that punching back is always the best thing to do when punched.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:21:29   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch


And if you make it more difficult and dangerous for them then less will be likely to go to the extremes necessary to continue.
You couldn't be more wrong. There's not simply one city full of terrorists you have to nuke and then we have peace. There are potential terrorists everywhere, all over the ME, all over the world. The further you continue this war, the more people you'll piss off and the more support terrorism will get, the more potential terrorists will become real ones. You will never ever get rid of terrorism with this approach. The children of today would be the terrorists of tomorrow.

The problem of ME terrorism is not only a problem of US support for Israel and Palestinians. It's rather a problem of poverty on the one side and the rich Western world that exploits that poverty on the other side. It's a problem of globalization. There's no way of getting rid of it without the Western world making huge sacrifices. And that will not happen.

Last post by me on this topic. I hope my point came across.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:31:27   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
You first justify the attacks of 9/11 as a reasonable response to US foreign policy.
No.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:45:58   #67
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Oh?

Quote:
There are two quotes from the article that come pretty close to what I was thinking that day:

"I sort of felt, hey, they finally caught up to us. All the dirt the U.S. has thrown finally came back around to kick us hard where it hurts."

"Where is the acknowledgment that this was not a 'cowardly' attack on 'civilization' or 'liberty' or 'humanity' or 'the free world' but an attack on the world's self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions?"
So you disagreed then? I must have misread your thoughts there.

Also

Quote:
Extreme measures are more likely to be heard and taken seriously. One thing the terrorists achieved is that people realize now that the founding of a Palestinian state is absolutely necessary.
Once again it seems you are justifying an almost "any means necessary" approach to protesting US policy.

No one to our differing world views which will never be reconciled or changed. I disagree that by fighting terrorism you make it more likely. Mostly because I don't believe that not responding doesn't send the wrong message that terrorism can succeed. It's like not fighting crime, might as well not even try to catch murderers since it will piss people them off and make others want to do it. Frankly one would think that good mommies and daddies will teach there kids that blowing up other people is a good way to get yourself killed so DON'T DO IT! rather than teaching them it's ok to strap explosives to themselves for Allah.

Poverty exists in the third world not because the US is so advanced or exploitive but because the third world persists in operating under dictatorships and outmoded econimc systems which do not advance the interests of their society. If Islamic countries want to operate in the 15th century I'm all for their choice but don't blame the rest of the world for having moved on into the 21st century ecnomically. IF they want to advance and still retain their cultural identity then they are going to have to adapt something that works better than what they got. It's not like it can't be done. Frankly throwing money at them won't help and I doubt very much they would like it anyway.

No more posts? But I was just getting into full Poly posting mode.
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Old 12-09-2002, 00:59:47   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
I disagree that by fighting terrorism you make it more likely. Mostly because I don't believe that not responding doesn't send the wrong message that terrorism can succeed.
If you don’t respond with force, but also don’t give in, then the terrorists do not still get what they want.

Quote:
It's like not fighting crime, might as well not even try to catch murderers since it will piss people them off and make others want to do it.
That’s a rubbish analogy, and you know it.

Quote:
Poverty exists in the third world not because the US is so advanced or exploitive but because the third world persists in operating under dictatorships and outmoded econimc systems which do not advance the interests of their society.
Poverty, all over the world, is our combined responsibility. Yes, the West could do more, but they aren’t encouraged to do so. This doesn’t mean that it’s some kid’s fault that he’s starving, or his dad’s fault.

I think the difference between us is this: I believe that as you cannot eradicate the means for terrorism, you should attempt to eradicate the motives. You believe that as you cannot eradicate the motives for terrorism, you should attempt to eradicate the means.

Last edited by Sean; 12-09-2002 at 01:01:44.
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:15:17   #69
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I tried to aviod commenting here, but I do have one such thought.

I wish I could stick a 6inch gravity knife in the gut of every asshole that says US policy brought on the 9/11 attacks, and for a change, I'm being dead serious.

The old time poly posters like GP know why.

Believe what you guys want, I won't say more.
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:35:31   #70
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I want to clear up one thing. To me the attack on the WTC was understandable but not reasonable. Reasonable implies that I agree with what was done, which is not the case.
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:41:14   #71
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This thread took a different turn here than at the other place. Sure there was politics but more people opened up with personal thoughts even if they were stupid or funny.
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:46:53   #72
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It was hard to avoid. Walrus just jumps at everything that's slightly anti US policy.
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:47:55   #73
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I know how it is. I expected it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:49:07   #74
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okay here is what I admit to thinking:

"Oh great this means all the stations will do continuous live reports thus meaning that they'll be nothing on TV tonight" (turned out to be true mostly)

"Wanna bet the greedy bastard oil companies will use this as an excuse to massively jack up gas prices?" (some increases but our prices are now actually a bit lower that pre 9/11/01 iirc)

"Look at all these hypocrits around the World including here in the US pretending to care" (actually many did truly care at least at the time although I'm running into more and more people now saying the US deserved it)

"How long before our leaders fuck up the improved relations with rest of the World and become the most hated country in the World by far again?" (It took the Bush administration under a year to pretty well instill rest of the World with seething hatred of the US again)
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:50:31   #75
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"Look at all these hypocrits around the World including here in the US pretending to care"

Oh yes, definitely ...
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:52:42   #76
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Look at how quickly apathy reappeared in many people. =/
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Old 12-09-2002, 01:57:26   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mightytree
"Look at all these hypocrits around the World including here in the US pretending to care"

Oh yes, definitely ...
Actually this wasn't really what I was thinking. It was more along the lines of: "Why do these people care? If this had happened in South Africa nobody would give a shit. They're all just really ignorant or hypocrits."
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Old 12-09-2002, 02:04:02   #78
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very true ... if it happened in Germany, we'd 'care' for like 10 minutes maybe.
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Old 12-09-2002, 03:12:44   #79
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Let's see...KKK are evil racists who kill people. Terrorists are evil religious zealots who kill people.

Big difference.

MT and PH...feel free to tell me how great the terrorists are. Suck their cranks for all I care...you wormy little b oys who've never done anything in your lives...
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Old 12-09-2002, 03:14:19   #80
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pt 1...never say the wrong thing in front of a military dude....
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Old 12-09-2002, 03:17:49   #81
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MT...why don't you you join that Taliban Johnie? If that is really what you are into...
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Old 12-09-2002, 04:52:17   #82
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THREAD CLOSED
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Old 12-09-2002, 04:59:37   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mightytree


How many did you kill Afghanistan? Were those civilians really necessary?
Yes.
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Old 12-09-2002, 05:08:45   #84
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Originally posted by Sean
Ah yes, I forgot that punching back is always the best thing to do when punched.
You're talking to Americans here. That's how we're brought up.

Not punching back is asking for a beat-down.

Pretty please.

With sugar on it.

On this level, we and the Mid East understand each other a lot better than the Euros understand either of us.
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Old 12-09-2002, 06:08:52   #85
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I hate to say this... but Walrus is 100% fucking dead on.

Violence is only counterable with VIOLENCE. And any fucking pansy bitch that says different sure as hell didn't get violent enough. Terrorists organizations are led by men who do care to keep living. They find fuckwits to go off and die, but like any good politician, they stay behind and make sure their asses is safe. There's plenty of proof already that by the US not hitting them back and hard for their shit early on, sent them the message we were easily bullied. If need be, nuke the whole fucking ME, and teach them to not fucking piss off SATAN. We are a young country, and we are quite willing to bleed a little to show bullies that we are not fucking scared of them, and we are not going to play their little ego games. Thier leadership are bullies... and you never, ever, ever appease a bully. You meet them dead on, violence for violence, and show them you are not just a victim, you are more trouble then its worth trying. You guys got a weekly beating in school, and had to cough up your lunch money and shoes every day, didn't you? Homey don't play that shit.

MT, you are stating that you agree with them. Get your fucking head out of your fucking ass, and stick your brain back in, and think it through. You tell a woman that gets raped that you can understand why she got raped? You tell the grandmother of a child that's been killed by someone going for a thrill-kill you can understand? That's exactly what you did. Dislodge the shit, friend.

Anyone that says the US brought this on itself is totally full of shit. 99% of the Arabs are piss poor, not because the Western World exploits them, but their own people exploit them. It's our job to teach the natives better? Fuck, that hasn't ever in all of history every worked. Not once. Not once when Great Britian did it... not once when France did it. Not once when Denmark, Portugal, or Spain did it. The only thing that has ever worked in all of Man's existance is being led by example. People seeing what works for the other guy, and it work well. And guess what? The Arab Leaders know that, and work at their hardest to fucking prevent it! All of you whiny bitches are so full of shit, it's pathetic.

England screws over the US every day. The US screws over England every day. We do not go out and fly large passenger airplanes into each others buildings to 'make a statement'.

Damn, you people are buying into the lies... You are already white washing and rationalizing and seperating... Pathetic.

Now, Super Rant over... moving on to regular Darkstar Dalliances...

The Palenstine State is only a stepping stone to be used to finish destroying Isreal. Go check out the history, the speeches, the plans, the manifestos.

There isn't one bit of difference between Al-Quada and the KKK. In fact, you'll find that many White Power groups are allies with Al-Quada and similar groups... due to their common hatred of the Jews.

The Anthrax terrorist is one of our own BW boys, showing the US it's vulnerable to such. They know who the guys are. There are 2 of them, and they are CIA brain boys. Just perverted patriots, in their own minds. Or so has been released by the DoJ.

It's being revealed right now that the Oklahoma bombing was a joint venture of Iraqi and Al-quada... they prompted, enabled, and assisted Timithy McVeigh and his friends. According to what is now being leaked by the White House and DoJ, they have complete proof of this. What's this tell us? We'll be going in to Iraq soon, with our sister and bestest buddy The United Kingdom backing us. We will see if the French keep their promise they made to us on 9/12 or so to back us against all who commit and committed terrorist acts... And just how many other people go off, making excuses.
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Old 12-09-2002, 06:26:54   #86
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Take it easy DS, they don't mean to sound heartless.

They just take the wrong lesson from history, because of Vietnam, everybody now thinks wars are unwinable and that little insurrections unstopable.
They also don't grasp that Muslim Fundementalists are really just bullies, Bin Laden says he wants the US out of Saudi Arabia.
Why?
What is the US doing there?
Nothing that warrents killing thousands of civillians.

Let me ask MT and others a question:
If a man walked up to your sister, right in front of you, a thrust a knife in her stomach and killed her, would you say "excuse me, why did you just do that barbarous act?"
His answer" I liked her, but she wouldn't give me what I wanted, I wanted her body, and as a man, I needed it, but she refused, so I killed the bitch".

You say "Oh, I see, we must work so this never happens again, we will make sure girls give it up to you".

THIS is what you are telling us when you spew that pablum about "listening to terrorists" or "US policy brought this on".

The truth is, they are racist scum that want to kill every jew, and we won't let them so they killed a lot of us.

You don't "reason" with a mad dog, you kill it.
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Old 12-09-2002, 06:51:19   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
It's being revealed right now that the Oklahoma bombing was a joint venture of Iraqi and Al-quada... they prompted, enabled, and assisted Timithy McVeigh and his friends...
This is news to me. How come it never came out during trial? Do you have a link?

Even if this is true, I still maintain that domestic US wingnuts remain a concern. Look at David Koresh or Jimmy Jones for starters.

But the main issue is that the US went to a lot of time, effort and lives to displace the Taliban's power base. Sure, many of them are still around in Afghanistan. And many more probably fled to Iran, Pakistan and the former Soviet republics in the area. Isn't it sensible to prevent their return by helping the Afghanis rebuild?

As far as Iraq goes I don't doubt that Saddam is doing nefarious deeds. And that he is scorning UN efforts to resume weapons inspection. But I still think that consensus building, if possible under the auspices under the UN, or failing that, even NATO, is ever so much more preferable to a unilateral act. If the US has so much proof of Iraqi complicity in terrorist acts why not share this information with the US's allies?
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Old 12-09-2002, 06:54:01   #88
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Don't any of you guys study real history....
We are in the middle of the fall of the american empire, no different to the roman one. WTC was only a byproduct of the real battle, in fact there was very little toodoo when it was car bombed. The fact that many lives were lost this time is regretable, and my heart goes out to all who were affected.
But....Why can america complain, they have never had true rule of law, the golden rule is all that matters, who has the gold rules.

There will never be a need to justify killing religious zealots, just do it, no matter the religion, but especially brainwashed, semi-inteligent tribesmen, who do not have the intellect or knowledge to know better, cannon fodder. The true enemy is the provider of those religious zealots, Saudi Arabia, he who has the gold. From whence came the rich student of the CIA spooks, Osama Bin Laden.

Dubya must have a war to recover some of the gold. Maybe DS or one of you economic students could tell us, how many hundred thousands of dollars is owed by each and every US citizen, not just the fed deficit, but the national debt, then you will know what this is all about.

I know this a bit of a ramble, but there are so many interrelated pieces of the jigsaw, it's hard to put them together in a rational manner, in a short post.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:01:04   #89
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RedFred, so far, it's been covered in a feature on Discovery Channel, CNN, and a DoJ release. Funny enough, that DoJ release has been recalled. So we will see if it gets prettied up and released again, or just 'forgetten/lost/spindled/and file 13... with no surviving backups'.

That's the shit that irritates me about these things. DoJ, after making a big deal about McVeigh, certainly will not want to admit that the charges the McVeigh defense made are true... that he was a patsy, and the DoJ was covering up for the real terrorists.

The general speal for why it all isn't laid out is: Security. They are still using the same intelligence gathering methods to know what's going on.

This sort of behavior strikes me as suspiscious. But it does signal to me an intent to go full bore into Iraq, otherwise they wouldn't have 'declassified' any of it to begin with. The same need for security is still around now as when they first released it.

I'll look for other links, but I don't expect to find any, since the DoJ made theirs disappear...
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:03:30   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris
Bin Laden says he wants the US out of Saudi Arabia.
I believe he actually said that he wanted all the infidels out of Saudi Arabia. I have a funny feeling that 'infidels' would include a lot more than just Americans. Probably anyone, Saudi or foriegn who opposed him in his bid to seize power.

Chris, it is not an 'either or' proposition. I regard Bin Laden and his followers so completely out of line that they have in some sense ceased to be human. Many of us outside the US share my viewpoint. But that doesn't mean that this grants the US some permanent exemption from criticism of their foriegn policy.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:07:18   #91
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Chag... I'm not sure if it is the fall of the American Empire or not. Most of our Empire has gotten rather international already, hasn't it? It could just be a small disturbance in the force. Only time will tell which is which, but America cannot stay top dog for much longer, one way or the other. At least not on a country's time scale.

And I rarely forget the Golden Rule.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:11:06   #92
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I dunno. I don't have actual facts, but I can conjecture. It boils down to what we know, how we came to know it, and what others will believe. And then there's proximity. If you're in easy range of Saddam, you might decide to step a few places back in the queue by going along.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:13:43   #93
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Fred, there is nothing wrong with realistic criticism, however, this has not been the case since the events of 9/11 unfolded.

Chagarra, I hold two degrees and a masters, enough education for you?

But enough, people can think what they want, the US are all crazy cowboys out to make the world safe for hotdogs and apple pie.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:14:04   #94
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Cross-post...
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:17:41   #95
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You mean safe for American Business. Which includes selling hot dogs and apple pies.

Personally, when I'm not pissing fire over this, I'm all for just putting the oil companies out of business (or transititioning), and letting those arab people whose leaders keep them even more ignorant then me hate us from afar because we are the mystical land of whatever.

All the crap in this thread just went past my tolerance... now that I've let off my rant on some specific issues raised in this thread, I'm much more centered.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:26:21   #96
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Chris
I don't think we disagre in any manner. Uneducated religious zealots need shooting, since you can't argue or reason with them.

I fully agree that.... the US are all crazy cowboys out to make the world safe for hotdogs and apple pie.... but you forgot to add .... so long as there is a dollar profit in it.

I've also seen very dumb/unworldly professors...
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:28:28   #97
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Riding on the range,
I've got my hat - on,
I've got my boots - dusty.

I've got my saddle
On my horse.
He's called....T-t-t-t-t-trigger
Of course.

I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy

(woman's voice)
Riding on the chuck wagon,
Following my man.
His name is Ted,
Can you believe that?
Camping on the prairie
Plays havoc with my hair.
Makes me feel quite dirty,
Though we all do sometimes

I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy

Looking like a hero,
Six-gun at my side,
Chewing my tobacco.
Out on the horizon,
I see a puff of smoke.
Indians on the warpath,
(Indian voice) White man speak-em with forked tongue.
Or not.

I wanna be a cowboy
and you can be my cowgirl
I wanna be a cowboy

My name is Ted,
And one day I'll be dead yo yo.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:29:28   #98
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Dumb as dirt.

The one flaw in the postulation of a failing US empire is the assertion that the US is indeed an empire withen an historical context that can be codified vis-a-vis any exsisting example.

Or the US is really a bunch of gay twats.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:32:51   #99
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I forgot that song. It was on MTV when I was less tall than I am today.
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Old 12-09-2002, 07:34:58   #100
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Empire no. Big and Bad, yes. Anybody who wants to make a name for himself can do it quickly by shooting the Sheriff. Or melting the Wicked Witch of the West.
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