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Old 19-08-2002, 16:14:50   #151
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I blame the Yankees for Cuba's problems.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:16:04   #152
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What I'm supposed to send you samples in evidence-bags? photographs with newspapers in them? ex-CIA men to come talk about their work back in the 70's and 80's?

These are not accusations- their summaries of events with sources attached for more in depth examination- you're a librarian, you should get it. There are many incidents I wanted to mention- but have only limited time, I can't sit here all day copying out text. If you want to discount the lot coz you've decided it's all just wild unfounded accusations (and not even bother to chase up my sources) then so be it.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:18:28   #153
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So Cuba submits a document to the UN and that makes it true? It doesn't take a librarian to see bullshit when he sees it. You're welcome to believe Uncle Fidel, I'll remain skeptical of anything he asserts.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:22:51   #154
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No, in that event the Cubans case was looked at in great detail by the UN team assigned to resolve the issue. Their findings are no doubt available, appended to the Cubans original report. When you talk about a UN report like this, its not the accusation that is interesting or represents the main body of the issue, its what the UN committee finds, through rigour and law.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:26:05   #155
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If they are available, and what you say is true, I assume that there were charges filed in an international court. Or maybe nothing happened because they didn't find any evidence to support the accusation.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:27:25   #156
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I've noticed your silence on the Sarin nerve gas attack by the way- or are the sources reffered to there not sufficient (head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff 1970 etc) I thought Sarin was one of those WMD weapons that only evil people like Saddam Hussein would use, and how that's why he must be stopped...
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:29:31   #157
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If they are available, and what you say is true, I assume that there were charges filed in an international court. Or maybe nothing happened because they didn't find any evidence to support the accusation.
Well, the UN is just a Yankui play-thing so, who knows what mazes your lot put the complaint through...
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:31:18   #158
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I've noticed your silence on the Sarin nerve gas attack by the way- or are the sources reffered to there not sufficient (head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff 1970 etc) I thought Sarin was one of those WMD weapons that only evil people like Saddam Hussein would use, and how that's why he must be stopped...
Perhaps it's all right to use Sarin nerve gas provided it's in American national interests, in which case that's okay then, god bless America, sea to shinning sea.... blah blah blah.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:32:30   #159
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Nice sidestep. The UN likes to screw us whenever they get the chance so if there were credible evidence they would have broadcast it loudly. My guess, I suppose I could be wrong but I doubt it, is that Castro whined, they looked, couldn't find anything and the whole incident now just lives on on the internet. If there wer credible proof this incident would have caused much bigger waves in the press then it has.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:35:15   #160
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Or perhaps it is just testement to Americas technical abiliteis that the issue was found too technically complex to varify, must be all that US bio-weapons research (after all, what's the point of having a weapon you can't use....)
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:35:49   #161
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I blame the Yankees for Cuba's problems.
Yeah, they signed El Duke and a few other good players from there.
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:37:57   #162
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I just hope America never finds it nessesary to pre-emptively use nuclear weapons against anyone- again (unless it's in their national interests of course, in which case that's perfectly all right then).
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Old 19-08-2002, 16:47:03   #163
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We never pre-emptively used nuclear weapons. I hardly consider the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as pre-emptive, they were part of a war we were fighting. But that's a discussion for another day.
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Old 19-08-2002, 17:22:20   #164
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We should nuke Europe to show the ME we mean buisness.
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Old 19-08-2002, 17:25:32   #165
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Old 19-08-2002, 17:31:57   #166
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Old 19-08-2002, 17:32:42   #167
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Old 19-08-2002, 17:35:50   #168
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Old 19-08-2002, 18:26:18   #169
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Old 19-08-2002, 18:27:12   #170
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Old 20-08-2002, 02:56:49   #171
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Qweeg...

A funny thing has emerged in studies of the Internet... it's debates are ego based, like most intellectual disputes, not fact based. PM me if you are curious to track down the studies and sources.

Walrus's ego is supreme. Therefore, he isn't going to bend. He knows our government would never ever ever do anything like that, and the fact that the US funds 80% of the UN means nothing, after all. It's like the US is completely powerless in the UN, publically and informally, just the same as any other country in it, yah?

You want a chance at Walrus following up, I think it's going to take a few links. Anyone can make up a long post. Look at my rants. Setting up a few web sites, now, that's getting extreme for winning a difference of opinion.

Other then that? The difference between a terrorist state and a super power is purely one of scale.
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Old 20-08-2002, 03:14:58   #172
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Old 20-08-2002, 03:16:00   #173
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I am not saying our goverrnment isn't incapable, I'm just saying in the Cuban case I don't find it credible based on the evidence presented.
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Old 20-08-2002, 03:22:12   #174
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I know we've done some serious crappy stuff to Cuba. In this one case, so far, I'm inclined to side with Walrus on this issue. My reasoning is it's supremely stupid to spray something at any significant altitude over Cuba with Florida being a mere 60 miles away. Insects travel that far easily, blown on errant winds, so I'd think it's just crazy to use Cuba as a test lab for such. Maybe the Canary Islands... they are just off Spain's coast. Nobody would mind that.
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Old 20-08-2002, 14:03:56   #175
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But you don't dispute the American tests with dengue carrying mosquito's in Florida, where millions of mosquito's were released?

Also note that only one of my sources is to be found on the internet.

Walrus this isn't a question of asking if your government is sometimes incapable- it's a question of whether it has whole-heartedly and knowingly committed some heinous acts--- on purpose.

I find it funny that Americans (and American-ass-likists) tend to try and re-interpret the question :

"Did American forces do some seriously evil shit to some poor third world country to further their own selfish corpo/political ends or not"

into questions like:

"Did America, while bumbling around in it's big-friendly-lug way, accidently (whilst trying to save the world for freedom) make a mistake and back a facist Greek Junta.

or:

Did America (without meaning to) trip over and smash a Chilean democracy and have it replaced by a government of Generals with a thing for executing students with political opinions.

I don't think the American government is incapable, or makes lots of mistakes particularly, or is naive or well meaning of a 'Big Friendly Lug'- I think it's just the only amoral world power (foreign policy dictatorship) that evolved to survive and rule in a 'democracy', and is therefore able to perpetuate its crimes in the open and have journo's write about them.... and yet still have everybody think it's as sweet as angels.
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Old 20-08-2002, 14:10:49   #176
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Walrus this isn't a question of asking if your government is sometimes incapable- it's a question of whether it has whole-heartedly and knowingly committed some heinous acts--- on purpose.
On the Cuban question then the answer is no. You can view that differently if you like but on the evidence presented we are not guilty.

By your definition all countries are amoral, we just happen to be the strongest now. YOur opinion, your welcome to it. I'm amazed that you let pissant 3rd world countries get away with all sorts of shit against their own people while you struggle to twist things into making it the US's fault. I simply have no idea why you have this grudge against us. I guess it stems from the "Our way is the only way" mentality that permeates your reasoning.
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Old 20-08-2002, 15:45:59   #177
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Old 20-08-2002, 15:48:21   #178
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Old 20-08-2002, 15:49:12   #179
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Old 20-08-2002, 15:51:48   #180
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Old 20-08-2002, 15:54:23   #181
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Old 20-08-2002, 15:59:40   #182
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If you say so.
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:05:11   #183
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On the Cuban question then the answer is no. You can view that differently if you like but on the evidence presented we are not guilty.

By your definition all countries are amoral, we just happen to be the strongest now. YOur opinion, your welcome to it. I'm amazed that you let pissant 3rd world countries get away with all sorts of shit against their own people while you struggle to twist things into making it the US's fault. I simply have no idea why you have this grudge against us. I guess it stems from the "Our way is the only way" mentality that permeates your reasoning.
Oh please, Cuba has been America's pet arch-enemy for the past 40 years, if you really believe that those cigerette-smoking men in Spooksville, Virginia wouldn't harm a hair on a Castro-Cuban head then you're sorely deluded.

All countries are amoral- especially America, but at least it puts the effort into spinning itself to look good I suppose, and it's efforts have obviously worked, you fell for it after all...

Half the dictatorships that 'I let get upto all sorts of shit' are actually working for you guys anyway. Like Pinochet, Pineapple-head, Papa Doc Duvalier and the Mujahadeen, they get sponsored by the US, and recieve money, guns, and sometimes free Scholarships at places like the School of the Americas- where they are taught torture and interrogation of the most efficient and effective varieties.
The self-made facist bastards out there sometimes just happen to get in Americas way is all, and that's when we hear terms like "regime change" pop up.

Just becouse all the tyranny and oppression that America creates happens in some 3rd world country somewhere where CNN never go and Mr Y D Dandee and his wife never have to see, don't mean it isn't very real, don't make the car bombs and landmines any less indiscriminate, or the armed police and their black van and no warrant at three o'clock in the morning any less intrusive.

Americans always bang on about free-market economics and how healthy raw-capitalism is and opening countries up to globalization- but you wouln't have that for yourselves, coz then you'd form loud noisy rallies and bang on about how the UN is 'taking over the world' and 'black helicopters' and how the horrible foreigners are flooding America with their cheep inferior goods and taking American jobs to far away 3rd world countries populated by teeming swarms of 'Ngap-jop' speaking non-Americans, and so we have todays blatant protectionism designed to keep 3rd world countries as serfs to an American led world economy run by America for Americas benifit. Globalization is really American Economic Empire, where we [American Corporations] can own ju- but ju cannot own us too.... but that's another thread.

Walrus you should be thankfull for pesky foreigners like me, if not for us you'd live in the middle of a continent-nation were every body believes you live in the greatest most benevolent force in history, with a government that is wise and kind and trustworthy- and a security force that only ever kills bad bad men trying to harm America itself. Without pesky non-Americans like me you'd think your senate consists of angels and that your industrial lobbies have no influence in policy and that even if they did- it would only be in a good and just way that's fair for everyone.
You'd think America really was the worlds policeman, instead of the worlds police-department owning mafia Godfather.
If it weren't for pesky non-Americans like me you guy's would live in the middle of the United States of Stepford, and never even know it.... you poor shmucks
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:14:59   #184
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I really don't know why you go off on these rants totally outside the narrow focus of our original debate. But I guess deflecting the gaze from your lack of proof to the allegations is necessary.

In the end we don't need you to point out our flaws, especially when you advocate actions that will make the world less safe for your "divergent" opinions.
SOme people are just never satisfied with being inconsequential to the direction of progress.
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:20:12   #185
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Huh!? you haven't followed up my proof so how would you know- American

I feel free speaking my mind here in the cosy comfort of Blighty, but in the USA I'd keep my opinions to myself, lest I get reported to the Committee for actions Un-American or something.

America has always in my opinion had a great capacity for facism, actually I'm surprised 9/11 didn't set you guy's off... I woulda thought that'd be like the Treaty of Versailles for you guys.
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:27:12   #186
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You have a warped view of us and I am afraid nothing we can say will ever sway you from it.

LIke I said you offer no proof only allegations which an international body did not act upon in any way. You believe what you will, I need not accept that point of view as factual.

And while you toss about words like Fascism I trust in my heart that you don't honestly believe them. But then again it's probably your paranoia acting up again. The world has changed since 9/11 and we will not let terrorists triumph while you seem quite willing to accept their victory.
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:27:20   #187
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:29:19   #188
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:32:33   #189
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:33:56   #190
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:34:32   #191
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:36:55   #192
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Up to you, tough guy.

keep boring the fuck outta me and see.
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:39:53   #193
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Hey, if you want to see our former colonial oppressors complain about us without response go ahead. I for one will not stand here and see them bad mouth the United States of America!
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:41:29   #194
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:43:24   #195
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I suppose I could just ignore them, but that seems so, so, so Alan Aldaish.
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:45:52   #196
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:47:40   #197
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:48:22   #198
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Old 20-08-2002, 16:51:21   #199
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Old 20-08-2002, 17:09:01   #200
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