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Old 16-08-2002, 14:13:58   #51
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Our mere presence as a nation inspires you worthless twats to better yourselves and work together.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:15:03   #52
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I'd so much rather that the British government allied itself with the European Union and actually joined the EU properly rather than insisting on being a US Satellite State.

I love the term "regime change" too, it's such obvious policital-spin-let-dress-something-nasty-up-as-a-not-nasty-sounding-word type of thing.
It's not war, it's "regime change". Regime change is as easy as an election...
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:21:06   #53
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Originally posted by Venom
Our mere presence as a nation inspires you worthless twats to better yourselves and work together.
, America has it's uses I guess.

'Regime Change', 'Asset Realization', 'Strategic Sympathy Editing', 'Economic Access Re-Allignment'- their all good terms
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:25:09   #54
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It's a competition, and everyone competes against the best to make themselves better. It's where much of the hatred comes from.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:37:05   #55
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Originally posted by Venom
It's a competition, and everyone competes against the best to make themselves better. It's where much of the hatred comes from.
That's not true Venom, America has put alot of effort into making sure no competition arises to challenge its world order.
Look how screwed up South America is, everything we associate with South American government (death-squads, the dissappeared) was actually brought about by American agencies, ever heard of the School of the Americas? You musta done by now, your lot didn't want any viable socialist states arising in its back yard to challenge the power of those eager to feed the American Industrial machine.

The US even interfered with Australian and French elections to that end (would'nt be surprised if they are also the ones responsable for Britains winter of discontent that paved the way for Thatchers brutal dis-society government- but I don't wanna be called paranoid)

America has its uses coz some of em are funny! Dance for us Yank! Dance for us! Ahahaha, Ahahahaha!
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:37:50   #56
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Especially since they can't compete and all they can do is whine about it.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:38:07   #57
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You're still our bitch Qweeg. So you'll be dancing for us.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:41:05   #58
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If only the europeans still ruled the world it would be a better place.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:42:27   #59
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That might even be the real reason why Blair is so 'friendly' to the US, he's terrified you'll CIA-ify our humble labour government, back the BNP with guns and money so they can have a bloody coup and seize parliment or something. Soon Wembly stadium will fill with dissident-students and so on and then the Junta's will come into power and take control of Shepards Bush and they'll be total Government control of the media etc.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:44:30   #60
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LIke we need the headaches that would come taking over your piddling little country.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:46:27   #61
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And then British Generals will start going to Washington to attend military colleges with names like 'The American school for European Democracy' and they'll learn all the latest terrorist/interogation and torture techniques and be supplied with bioweapons for use against the Germans or something (damn vegetarian pinko tree-huggers).

Hell we already spy on other European countries for our American butt-masters so why not.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:47:08   #62
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Then quit fucking with us and none of it wil happen Qweeg. Considering the wonderful Dark Ages, Spanish Inqusition and explotative Colonialization that went on during the European Golden Age I guess we're just a bunch of evil bastards.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:47:49   #63
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no not at all- you're just not the good-guys you like to think.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:47:52   #64
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I am constantly amazed at the level of paranoia out there.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:50:23   #65
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Study your countries foreign policy and actions through history and then you'll be amazed at the level of complacency and non-paranoia out there.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:50:30   #66
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Originally posted by Qweeg
no not at all- you're just not the good-guys you like to think.
And perhaps you guys ain't saints as well? Course you are the guys that want Saddam Hussein to have WMD's because...Why exactly again? It makes the world a safer place?
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:52:12   #67
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We seem to be forgetting its YOU LOT who wanted Saddam to have WMD, you sold him the damn starter-kit, weren't you embarresed at all when that whole Anthrax thing in Washington kept raising worrying reminders about Americas history of WMD exportation?
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:52:39   #68
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Hey, when us Europeans were enjoying the dark ages and the Inquisition, what were the Americans up to? Eh? Ah ha. Hmm?
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:52:52   #69
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Originally posted by Qweeg
Study your countries foreign policy and actions through history and then you'll be amazed at the level of complacency and non-paranoia out there.
And whining, don't forget the whining. Just because you present your paranoia in a complacent fashion don't make it any less paranoid.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:53:06   #70
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If only the europeans still ruled the world it would be a better place.
That's what I said.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:53:27   #71
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Yes Qweeg, we really want to invade the world and take everyone over and have thousands of Americans die because we really think it's fun.

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, we actually are trying to make things better?
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:54:40   #72
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Originally posted by Qweeg
We seem to be forgetting its YOU LOT who wanted Saddam to have WMD, you sold him the damn starter-kit, weren't you embarresed at all when that whole Anthrax thing in Washington kept raising worrying reminders about Americas history of WMD exportation?
Oh that's horseshit. The French and the Germans and the Russians and the Chinese have been playing footsie with him for years and providing him with the technology. Look in your own backyard for that my friend.

As far as the anthrax in the US that has nothing to do with Iraq. At least as far as we know.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:55:24   #73
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But then of course us Brits were happily selling Sadaam the SuperGun technology and all our UK weapons tech during the 80s - the "Guns for Oil" scandal that nearly brought down the government.
Of course, that was during the era of "lets support the Good Guys Iraq under that nice man Sadaam against the EVIL IRANIANS during the Iran-Iraq war" and look how much lovely money he gives us for our guns and all the cheap oil he gives us.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:57:01   #74
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I still don't understand why you guys want Saddam in power. Do you think he'll exclude you from his madness? His missles can only reach Europe you know.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:57:50   #75
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Originally posted by walruskkkch

As far as the anthrax in the US that has nothing to do with Iraq. At least as far as we know.
There's a special Panorama investiagtion in to this on British TV this weekend, it's expected to say that the whole Anthrax saga was actually instigated by the Pentagon, as the only possible source of the anthrax was from 1 military laboratory, which is the only lab in the world that has that particular strain and concentration of it...

The US Government actually tried to stop the BBC screening it a few weeks ago.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:59:02   #76
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Yes, we got that figured. That's why we are investigating several people from the lab.
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Old 16-08-2002, 14:59:22   #77
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Yes Qweeg, we really want to invade the world and take everyone over and have thousands of Americans die because we really think it's fun.

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, we actually are trying to make things better?


Yes, back when I was a little kid and was naive and foolish (that's becous of all the American propaganda that floods the worlds media)

You Americans really seem to think your government dcares about American soldiers- it doesn't, it cares about votes, so it gives you your world view so it knows exactly how you will vote.

America already has dominance over most of the world, and military/corporate access is extremely high on US agenda. I have seen no evidence to counter that.

Why occupy another country when you can just have a cronie-government installed to run the place for you?

If making the world better was Americas goal- the world would be better by now (for the US, this IS better- everybody capitalist apart from loser-countries with no power an anyone who don't tow- isolated and government replaced by oppressors)
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:02:57   #78
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We don't care about our soldiers? That's fairly nonsensical since we go out of our way to avoid using them.

We have no agenda for world domination, it's just how life works out when you are the best there is.

You really think we wanted Tony Blair?
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:03:12   #79
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I still don't understand why you guys want Saddam in power. Do you think he'll exclude you from his madness? His missles can only reach Europe you know.
I don't consider my self the greatest fan of Sadaam, but then neither do I actually want George Bush in power either. However, I do not see the need or justification for unleashing full scale war against a country just because you don't happen to like their leader.

Also, I simply don't believe the anti-Iraq propoganda that the US is bandying about and I certainly don't like the blatant hypocracy of it when the US is sponsoring Israel and backing the deeds that it accuses and demonises other countries for??

Russia and China and Pakistan and India all have arsenals of weapons of mass destruction and we'd all agree they're not the most Westernised of democracies, however I don't hear anybody suggesting that we go and enforce "regime change" on all of them either? The Pakistan-India tensions are probably far more serious to world stability than Iraq, and yet nobody's suggesting going to war against both countries just to boot out their leaders? Perhaps we should invade China now, just in case they decide they might invade America in 50 years time?
Bah. It's bollocks.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:04:01   #80
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That's not true Venom, America has put alot of effort into making sure no competition arises to challenge its world order.
Look how screwed up South America is, everything we associate with South American government (death-squads, the dissappeared) was actually brought about by American agencies, ever heard of the School of the Americas? You musta done by now, your lot didn't want any viable socialist states arising in its back yard to challenge the power of those eager to feed the American Industrial machine.

The US even interfered with Australian and French elections to that end (would'nt be surprised if they are also the ones responsable for Britains winter of discontent that paved the way for Thatchers brutal dis-society government- but I don't wanna be called paranoid)

America has its uses coz some of em are funny! Dance for us Yank! Dance for us! Ahahaha, Ahahahaha!
I don't know about France and Australia (and I try to keep it that way ), but a lot of America's actions at that time were because of the cold war. Especially in the Americas. A communist foothold in South America would represent a major threat to national security (The Cuban Missile Crisis). However, much of the US's attempt to quell communist revolutions were quite embarrassing (Bay of Pigs). Those were more desperate times. Unfortunately, the actions of those times are now causing the troubles of today and are influencing American policy for the worse. Kind of like France in Vietnam.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:09:10   #81
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I don't consider my self the greatest fan of Sadaam, but then neither do I actually want George Bush in power either. However, I do not see the need or justification for unleashing full scale war against a country just because you don't happen to like their leader.

Also, I simply don't believe the anti-Iraq propoganda that the US is bandying about and I certainly don't like the blatant hypocracy of it when the US is sponsoring Israel and backing the deeds that it accuses and demonises other countries for??
I can't help you if you wish to remain blind to the threat Saddam will pose to the world if he is allowed to continue. It is not the same thing of merely disliking a leader, the man is a major threat and you only seem to want to tackle it after it blows up. Which in this case is a extremely dangerous position given the nature of the weaponry.

You are also very quick to demonize Isreali for it's actions which wouldn't occur if it wasn't for the fact that it's being targeted for destruction by a group of people unable to live in peace with it. Would Israel be doing these things if it wasn't for the terrorists? I think not.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:11:33   #82
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I don't know about France and Australia (and I try to keep it that way ), but a lot of America's actions at that time were because of the cold war. Especially in the Americas. A communist foothold in South America would represent a major threat to national security (The Cuban Missile Crisis). However, much of the US's attempt to quell communist revolutions were quite embarrassing (Bay of Pigs). Those were more desperate times. Unfortunately, the actions of those times are now causing the troubles of today and are influencing American policy for the worse. Kind of like France in Vietnam.
You really believe their was a World-Wide Communist Conspiracy huh. Many of these brutally put down governments weren't even communist (Chile for egsample, democraticaly elected Socialist Government, Nicoragua, Haiti)

Communism and now Terrorism are excuses, interesting that the substantial list of American sponsored terrorists, like the Contra's, aren't mentioned at all these days.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:14:23   #83
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I can't help you if you wish to remain blind to the threat Saddam will pose to the world if he is allowed to continue. It is not the same thing of merely disliking a leader, the man is a major threat and you only seem to want to tackle it after it blows up. Which in this case is a extremely dangerous position given the nature of the weaponry.

You are also very quick to demonize Isreali for it's actions which wouldn't occur if it wasn't for the fact that it's being targeted for destruction by a group of people unable to live in peace with it. Would Israel be doing these things if it wasn't for the terrorists? I think not.
Saddam is not a threat to world security, he's a threat to regional security- perhaps we should leave it to the Middle Easterners to deal with him- or ask for help in doing so.

As for Isreal- its arguable both ways in my opinion, their not quite aparthied South Africa, and groups like Hamas and members of the PLO does want their destruction along anti-semetic principals so...
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:15:00   #84
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I'd say he was. The main reason for the wholescale upsurge in violence in these so-called "Axis-of-evil" countries in the past 3 or 4 years is directly linked to the dramatic change in Israeli policy and the hardline Israel violence since Sharon came in to power, a man who is wholeheartedly supported by Mr Bush.
By extension getting rid of the US regime would be good for the world too, right?
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:15:18   #85
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I don't consider my self the greatest fan of Sadaam, but then neither do I actually want George Bush in power either. However, I do not see the need or justification for unleashing full scale war against a country just because you don't happen to like their leader.

Also, I simply don't believe the anti-Iraq propoganda that the US is bandying about and I certainly don't like the blatant hypocracy of it when the US is sponsoring Israel and backing the deeds that it accuses and demonises other countries for??

Russia and China and Pakistan and India all have arsenals of weapons of mass destruction and we'd all agree they're not the most Westernised of democracies, however I don't hear anybody suggesting that we go and enforce "regime change" on all of them either? The Pakistan-India tensions are probably far more serious to world stability than Iraq, and yet nobody's suggesting going to war against both countries just to boot out their leaders? Perhaps we should invade China now, just in case they decide they might invade America in 50 years time?
Bah. It's bollocks.
The US did admonish India for testing nuclear weapons, much to India's disappointment. Paksitan, India, and China all of less virulent governments. All three are sane enough to not use nuclear weapons. All three have a lot to lose if such weapons are used. Hence they all fall into Nuclear Deterence Theory (MAD). Iraq, however, or more accurately Saddam, doesn't fall into that theory. He doesn't care if Iraq is nuked, he'll just hide in his bunker. Plus, he has used bioagents in the past. His past actions have basically dug his grave. If you look back at what he did, you'd wonder why he has been allowed to stay in power so long.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:17:53   #86
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USA has used chemical and biological weapons against Cuba, targeting its agriculture and human population, the last recorded biological warfare attack by America was in 1997 by light aircraft (a crop sprayer) a number of people (including children) died as a direct result.

Lets get the bastards!
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:18:34   #87
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By extension getting rid of the US regime would be good for the world too, right?
Wrong.

YOu have had terrorists emboldened by the previous administration who believed they can realize their dream of getting rid of Israel. And they are further encouraged by the support they seem to be getting from Europe to their actions. It's great when you blow up women and children and you get the Europeans to blame the victims.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:19:32   #88
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USA has used chemical and biological weapons against Cuba, targeting its agriculture and human population, the last recorded incident was in 1997 by light aircraft (a crop sprayer) a number of people (including children) died as a direct result.

Lets get the bastards!
Right. You really believe everything bad you read, don't you?

Paranoia I tell you...
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:20:16   #89
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You are also very quick to demonize Isreali for it's actions which wouldn't occur if it wasn't for the fact that it's being targeted for destruction by a group of people unable to live in peace with it. Would Israel be doing these things if it wasn't for the terrorists? I think not.
Would the Palastinians be doing such desparate measures if they weren't being systematically exterminated by the Israelis?

I'm sorry but the Israelis don't have a monopoly on being the good guys in that theatre.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:22:06   #90
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Frankly I don't agree with your premise that the Israelis are systematically trying to exterminate the Palestinians. They have agreed to swap land for peace, to live with them but it's the Palestians who push and push with their terrorism to make Israel respond. If the Terrorist activities ended today and the Palestians just accepted a peaceful solution all this would end.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:26:25   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
Frankly I don't agree with your premise that the Israelis are systematically trying to exterminate the Palestinians. They have agreed to swap land for peace, to live with them but it's the Palestians who push and push with their terrorism to make Israel respond. If the Terrorist activities ended today and the Palestians just accepted a peaceful solution all this would end.
Progress was being made, I agree. Israel did move some of its borders, but at the same time continues to build completely new "settlements" in areas that it has been prohibited to build in, forcibly removing many thousands of people from both countries actually. It was all seemingly going quite well until Sharon was voted in and his hardline policy of bomb first, ask questions of the dead later has inflamed the whole area again.

I'm not saying that the Palastinians are totally devoid of blame, but for goodness sake please stop painting the Israelis as the good guys who are the champions of peace in the region.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:26:40   #92
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Originally posted by walruskkkch


Right. You really believe everything bad you read, don't you?

Paranoia I tell you...
Sourced, Documented Evidence, recorded transcripts of communication between the Cuban pilot who saw (visualy) the American crop-sprayer releasing clouds over Cuba. The Cuban pilot at first thought the Sprayer was in some kind of technical difficulty. The issue was even raised in the UN by Cuba (some time after the first victims started to appear), who demanded an explanation. None of course was forthcoming.

This and other incidents were recorded to an extent that not believing them you may as well not believe what Saddam did against the Kurds. The evidense is there, go look- I could give you direct sources but you'll have to wait till I post tommorow (so I can go get my source and copy the names, dates and strains down properly so there is no error)
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:34:25   #93
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It's how government's work Qweeg. I'm sure you're own damn goverment is guilty of some appaling shit to, so stop acting like your shit don't stink. I don't doubt the horrible things we've done, but what pisses me off is when big mouths come around spouting this holier than thou shit. You act like England didn't give Israel the land. You act like England didn't murder thousands of Indians. I'm tired of that crap. You're flat out jealous, and tearing us down makes you feel better about yourself.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:35:22   #94
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A)You believe the Cuban Government automatically?
B)You believe the Cuban Government automatically?
C)Well, you know the drill.

I suppose I can await upon the Documentation, but how believable that will be will be interesting.

One question I suppose needs to be asked, why? What possibly could be achieved by one airplane doing this? It makes no sense to begin with. Conspiracy theories and things like this hang on implausabilities and a healthy does of "want to believes".
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:42:09   #95
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Oh please, since when has the commitment of atriocities against small countries been essential to the national security of anyone? That's like stabbing someone on principal and then saying

"he was a threat to my interests, its what I had to do"

or

"I had to spray that child in the face with CS gas- he was a threat I tell you, a Threat!"

What, if you didn't go out your way to bring the upstart Cuba to its knees by any means required then you might wake up one day to find a Cuban boot on your neck the following morning?

If US interests can only be safe-guarded by such acts then I really don't know what exactly your interests are, certainly not what you guys claim your interests to be. As for my perception of Europeans? I'd say you guys learnt well from the former European empires your ancestors tried so hard to get away from, very well indeed. Mind you slavery and genocide made sure you started with hands just as dirty and hypocritic as the old empires hands ever were.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:44:12   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by walruskkkch
A)You believe the Cuban Government automatically?
B)You believe the Cuban Government automatically?
C)Well, you know the drill.

I suppose I can await upon the Documentation, but how believable that will be will be interesting.

One question I suppose needs to be asked, why? What possibly could be achieved by one airplane doing this? It makes no sense to begin with. Conspiracy theories and things like this hang on implausabilities and a healthy does of "want to believes".
The evidence was independantly sourced, this was just one incident in a list of many. America hates the Cuban regime and will do anything to destroy it and harm the populations it controls (anything it can get away with anyway).
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:48:31   #97
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What was sourced? Accusations? Once again just paranoid accusations of covert activity. How exactly was a single plane going to topple Castro's regime? Your automatic belief that we want to harm the population is another example of the misunderstandings you have about us.
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Old 16-08-2002, 15:54:35   #98
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The accusations were Cuban, the evidence is impartial and there for independant bodies to varify. If you don't know how a single crop-plane bearing highly virulant bio-weapons can damage a government well (shrugs) in most of the world, government is there to provide education, health, and security from starvation for its people, America disagrees with this 'socialist/communist' doctrine and believes education, health and food are things you buy with money or get the fuck out the shop ya cheapskate! (this is called 'freedom')

Epidemics in Cuba would be evidence the Cuban government isn't doing its job, another step towards toppling the regime.
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Old 16-08-2002, 16:07:47   #99
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THe evidence, so far, is non existent. And your explanation is still more fantastic than anything else.
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Old 16-08-2002, 16:09:01   #100
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What evidence?
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