Counterglow Forums  

Go Back   Counterglow Forums > General Discussions > Film, Fiction and Writing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-01-2004, 20:00:03   #151
RedFred
Living life .05 hours at a time
 
RedFred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Slowly succumbing to a more powerful culture
I can give a solid two thumbs up to Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson. Not as funny as Snowcrash but what is?

Now I am part way through on book 2 of L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s Legacy series.
RedFred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2004, 20:26:24   #152
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
I am reading a historical bit titled "Mutiny on the Globe" about a crazed New Englander in the early 1800's who slaughters his captain and attempts to build a fascist Utopia in the pacific islands.
Started off agonizingly slow but is starting to pick up a bit.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2004, 11:12:53   #153
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
Now reading 'An Old Captivity' by Nevil Shute. Set in the 1930s, around a flying expedition to Greenland.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2004, 18:45:13   #154
Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
Not National Zombie Awareness Month
 
Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Gnawing at your brain
DS: Anders Sandburg? Nope. It was on a Singularitarian mailing list, and more of a general recommendation to list members.
__________________
Not annoying anyone with my signature since 2011!
Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2004, 03:13:32   #155
Cumber
Registered User
 
Cumber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Currently reading Steven Brust's Jhereg serries (I think that's how it's spelt?). Right at this second in between Teckla and Taltos.
Cumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-01-2004, 07:42:32   #156
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
Qaj, yep, the one and only.

Cumber, I dimly remember the Jhereg. How many books are in that setting/series now?
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2004, 11:20:21   #157
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
The Nevil Shute book was very good. Astounding view of how people saw the world before you could buy a ticket to virtually anywhere on the planet just by wandering to any number of travel agents in your local High Street.

Now reading 'Permutation City' by Greg Egan. First of his that I've read. This one explores artificial intelligence and virtual reality.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2004, 14:51:33   #158
Lazarus and the Gimp
Howling at the moon
 
Lazarus and the Gimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The radioactive Somerset coast
"Riddley Walker"
Lazarus and the Gimp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2004, 12:31:31   #159
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
I don't think I finished that, because I just couldn't get to grips with the way that the writing was presented, even though that was the whole point. Went to see the play at the Royal Exchange in Manchester.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2004, 16:56:01   #160
Mr. Bas
Inde deus abest
 
Mr. Bas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The new white Pele
I finished both 'The catcher in the rye' by J.D. Salinger and 'Vernon God Little' by DBC Pierre a couple of weeks ago, I liked both a lot. After that, I haven't read much, not any books at least. I have a copy of The brothers Karamazov lying around, but I haven't started yet... The size of it is a bit intimidating.
Mr. Bas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2004, 17:06:34   #161
King_Ghidra
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo
 
King_Ghidra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: MORAL HARDCORE CHAMPION
the prose is quite dense too. I'd suggest starting with the shorter dostoevsky stuff if you haven't read it already, e.g. crime and punishment.
__________________
i check my hair at the elevator mirror and the highlight of my day when I say hi to a girl who's opposite of the elevator door at my floor. the one i went out with.
after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
-paiktis
King_Ghidra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2004, 17:25:13   #162
Mr. Bas
Inde deus abest
 
Mr. Bas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The new white Pele
I haven't read anything by Dostoyevsky so far. I might check if the library have something shorter by him...
Mr. Bas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2004, 20:36:51   #163
Lazarus and the Gimp
Howling at the moon
 
Lazarus and the Gimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The radioactive Somerset coast
Quote:
Originally posted by Noisy
I don't think I finished that, because I just couldn't get to grips with the way that the writing was presented, even though that was the whole point. Went to see the play at the Royal Exchange in Manchester.
I'm sorry, but the thought of you attempting to read "Riddley Walker" has actually left me helplessly weeping with laughter. I can imagine the author receiving a list of spelling corrections running to 20,000 words.
Lazarus and the Gimp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-2004, 20:55:05   #164
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2004, 16:19:19   #165
jsorense
Kinked Rockist
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the '60s.
Dune: The Butlerian Jihad by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson.
There are some mildly interesting bits in it so far.
__________________
"I wonder what became of all the Rockers and the Mods.
I hope they are making it and they've all got stead jobs,
Oh but rock and roll still lives on,
Yeah, rock and roll still lives on. "
jsorense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-01-2004, 22:41:33   #166
QtFLW@Work
But you can just call me QtFLW
 
QtFLW@Work's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In the Government Salt Mines
Noisy: What did you think of Permutation City?
__________________
Counterglow Pity Poster
QtFLW@Work is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2004, 00:45:06   #167
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
Halfway through it, and yet I still feel as if I've yet to really get into it. It plays around with some areas that I'm getting interested in a bit more: consciousness and AI. I'm reading GEB (slowly), and I've just bought 'Consciousness Explained' by Daniel Dennett (but it may be a while until I get around to reading that).
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2004, 06:01:21   #168
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Well, if you like PK Dick and are interested in consciousness, you must have read "A Scanner Darkly" by now, right?
I can imagine the first self aware AI's having issues along the lines of the protagonist's.
Or, better yet, the Valis trilogy (the have it under one cover these days). Talk about an exploration of messed up psyche.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2004, 16:08:59   #169
Sean
Rhubarb
 
Sean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: God knows
Quote:
Originally posted by jsorense
Dune: The Butlerian Jihad by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson.
There are some mildly interesting bits in it so far.
I read the first two of their prequels and think you pretty much hit the nail on the head: mildly interesting. If you’ve read either of those, how does it compare?

I’m reading The Hard-Boiled Wonderland and The End of the World.
Sean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2004, 20:02:34   #170
alsieboo
Pleb
 
alsieboo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: In front of the PC
just finished robert rankins 'hollow chocolate bunnies of the apocolypse' and just starting 'the witches of chiswick' by the same author
alsieboo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2004, 21:16:01   #171
JM^3
colossal bender
 
JM^3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: In front of my computer
Quote:
Originally posted by Cumber
Currently reading Steven Brust's Jhereg serries (I think that's how it's spelt?). Right at this second in between Teckla and Taltos.
the best in this series is the phoneix guards

Jon Miller
JM^3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-01-2004, 22:16:09   #172
Lazarus and the Gimp
Howling at the moon
 
Lazarus and the Gimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The radioactive Somerset coast
Finished "The Clerkenwell Tales" by Peter Ackroyd, and now starting "Riddley Walker" in earnest. It's very good.
Lazarus and the Gimp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2004, 08:26:56   #173
jsorense
Kinked Rockist
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the '60s.
Quote:
Originally posted by jsorense
Dune: The Butlerian Jihad by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson.
There are some mildly interesting bits in it so far.
Well I finally finished it. All and all, don't bother.
I thought the whole treatment of the "thinking machines' was totally off base.
The writhing was "hoo huum" but that isn't too surprising because most of Frank Herbert's writing was hoo huum too.
jsorense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2004, 09:24:19   #174
Scabrous Birdseed
for your usergroup and post count
 
Scabrous Birdseed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Among the clouds
The Cambridge Companion to Crime Fiction. I'm... not entirely... sure exactly... why.
__________________
Birdseed's Tunedown
Scabrous Birdseed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2004, 15:09:54   #175
Lazarus and the Gimp
Howling at the moon
 
Lazarus and the Gimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The radioactive Somerset coast
The only crime fiction I've seriously read is Derek Raymonde. There was some unpleasant stuff in that man's head.
Lazarus and the Gimp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2004, 16:02:47   #176
jsorense
Kinked Rockist
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the '60s.
I ust started The Peacewar by Vernor Vinge (1984). I am on page 63 and enjoying it a lot so far.
__________________
"I wonder what became of all the Rockers and the Mods.
I hope they are making it and they've all got stead jobs,
Oh but rock and roll still lives on,
Yeah, rock and roll still lives on. "
jsorense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2004, 17:34:12   #177
Nills Lagerbaak
Role Model
 
Nills Lagerbaak's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hiding inside the computers
Just finished the alchemist.

SOme interesting things in there. Very simply written, could be a fairy tale or something, but quite poignent
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

"I quite like the fairies." - Funko
Nills Lagerbaak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-01-2004, 18:58:14   #178
QtFLW@Work
But you can just call me QtFLW
 
QtFLW@Work's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In the Government Salt Mines
Quote:
Originally posted by jsorense
I ust started The Peacewar by Vernor Vinge (1984). I am on page 63 and enjoying it a lot so far.
I read that and the sequel a few weeks back. Good book(s). Though the end of "Marooned in Realtime" was a tad confusing at first read.
__________________
Counterglow Pity Poster
QtFLW@Work is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2004, 11:45:15   #179
Qweeg
~Novus Ordo Seclorum~
 
Qweeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Origin.
I read that book, I really enjoyed the first story, and although I liked the concepts and ideas shown in the second story, I was really disappointed that Vinge seemed to abandon everything he'd built up for reader to care about from the first story (the characters, their world, what happened next etc).
__________________
Intermittent Signal.
Qweeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2004, 16:32:10   #180
QtFLW@Work
But you can just call me QtFLW
 
QtFLW@Work's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In the Government Salt Mines
Warning jsorense, warning! Spoilers ahoy!



The books were some of a few that addresses Vinge's concept of singularity, a point in time where technology advances to the point where if it was plotted on a graph, it would suddenly go straight up - a spike, of sorts, beyond which you can't even begin to imagine what society would be like.

The Peace War deliberately slowed the pace of technological advance from real-world levels (some estimates put a real-world Singularity as soon as 2020, as late as 2080 or beyond for really conservative estimates) so Vinge could tell a cool story without having to squash it all into a few decades (his perception of 'time until the Singularity' from the date the book was written).

Marooned... was supposed to have been a drastic break from the previous book, as it was trying to capture a possible outcome of a sudden Singularity on human society. The first book was pretty much just elaborate setup for the second book, trying to show what happened when the human race 'transcended' their humanity.


Vinge's Fire Upon the Deep was another tale that setup somewhat elaborate obstacles to a Singularity to tell a specific story.
__________________
Counterglow Pity Poster
QtFLW@Work is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-01-2004, 20:50:36   #181
jsorense
Kinked Rockist
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the '60s.
Thanks for the comments guys.

I just finished and it was pretty good. However, it got to be a little too Ender's Game at the end for me. A book I think is way over rated IMHO.

Oh, I liked the setting, almost like having take place in my backyard.

Hmmm, I just noticed that Card published Ender's Game a year after The Peacewar. Oh, and they are making a movie of E'sG now.

Last edited by jsorense; 30-01-2004 at 22:52:08.
jsorense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-01-2004, 14:16:09   #182
Mr. Bas
Inde deus abest
 
Mr. Bas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The new white Pele
I still haven't had the courage to pick up Dosteyevski, so I started on I Jan Cremer instead. It's a pretty enjoyable book IMO.
Mr. Bas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-01-2004, 21:42:05   #183
Sean
Rhubarb
 
Sean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: God knows
The Professor and the Madman.
Sean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-01-2004, 19:58:37   #184
jsorense
Kinked Rockist
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the '60s.
The Korean War: The West Confronts Communism by Michael Hickey.
This is written by a Brit so that Commonwealth troops are highlighted. He is also happy to point out any U.S. shortcomings.
Refreshing.
jsorense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2004, 12:12:53   #185
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
Well, I've finished 'Permutation City' now. I must admit that I read it in rather a fragmentary fashion, and didn't pick up on the time jumping about in the first half of the book (because I hardly ever bother reading chapter titles), but I'm still not that impressed. It doesn't pass the test of whether I'd pass it on to my father to read, I'm afraid. I think it deals with pretty big concepts, but the answers are simplistic. I wouldn't tell people not to read it, but then again I wouldn't recommend it.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2004, 12:15:48   #186
Sean
Rhubarb
 
Sean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: God knows
Quote:
Originally posted by Sean
The Professor and the Madman.
Subtitled A Tale of Murder, Insanity, and the Making of the Oxford English Dictionary. Great read: I love Simon Winchester’s history books.
Sean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 00:37:14   #187
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
Now reading 'A Devil's Chaplain' by Richard Dawkins.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 07:50:52   #188
Vincent
Unchained
 
Vincent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 09:33:05   #189
Scabrous Birdseed
for your usergroup and post count
 
Scabrous Birdseed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Among the clouds
I've grown a bit bored of The Cambridge Companion, currently reading Dance of Life: Popular Music and Politics in Southeast Asia by Craig A. Lockard.
__________________
Birdseed's Tunedown
Scabrous Birdseed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 20:03:58   #190
Scabrous Birdseed
for your usergroup and post count
 
Scabrous Birdseed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Among the clouds
I'm currently reading a text file containing a scene-for-scene description of the storyline of all the Resident Evil games.
__________________
Birdseed's Tunedown
Scabrous Birdseed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 20:05:13   #191
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
Scabby, that sounds like a serious cry for help! Should we dispatch the Betan Emergency Psych teams?
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 20:12:01   #192
Scabrous Birdseed
for your usergroup and post count
 
Scabrous Birdseed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Among the clouds
It's fascinating meta-literature in a way. You keep wanting to find out what happens next, yet there's no actual narrative in there. It's like a hyper-compressed suite of novels.
__________________
Birdseed's Tunedown
Scabrous Birdseed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2004, 20:39:08   #193
Lazarus and the Gimp
Howling at the moon
 
Lazarus and the Gimp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: The radioactive Somerset coast
"St Dunstan- his life, times and cult" by Prof. Lapidge.
Lazarus and the Gimp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2004, 00:46:41   #194
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
"House of Sand and Fog" by Andre Dubus III. Pretty good.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 17:43:42   #195
QtFLW@Work
But you can just call me QtFLW
 
QtFLW@Work's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: In the Government Salt Mines
Quote:
Originally posted by jsorense
Oh, I liked the setting, almost like having take place in my backyard.
The fact that I moved to California and then reread the book knowing the geography it was set it enhanced my appreciation of the book when I read it a few weeks back.
__________________
Counterglow Pity Poster
QtFLW@Work is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 17:56:09   #196
King_Ghidra
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo
 
King_Ghidra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: MORAL HARDCORE CHAMPION
Quote:
Originally posted by BigGameHunter
"House of Sand and Fog" by Andre Dubus III. Pretty good.
So what happened to Andre Dubus I and II? I think we should be told.
__________________
i check my hair at the elevator mirror and the highlight of my day when I say hi to a girl who's opposite of the elevator door at my floor. the one i went out with.
after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
-paiktis
King_Ghidra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2004, 22:52:25   #197
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
They probably never existed. What nom de plume would be good as a "I" or a "II"?
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-2004, 09:45:56   #198
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
Now reading 'Dead Air' by Iain Banks.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2004, 11:47:24   #199
Qweeg
~Novus Ordo Seclorum~
 
Qweeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Origin.
Quote:
Originally posted by jsorense
Thanks for the comments guys.

I just finished and it was pretty good. However, it got to be a little too Ender's Game at the end for me. A book I think is way over rated IMHO.

Oh, I liked the setting, almost like having take place in my backyard.

Hmmm, I just noticed that Card published Ender's Game a year after The Peacewar. Oh, and they are making a movie of E'sG now.
Really... a movie of Enders Game you say?
__________________
Intermittent Signal.
Qweeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-02-2004, 12:56:02   #200
Noisy
Post Quality Analyst
 
Noisy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the depths of Mordor.
Now reading 'The Last Three Minutes' by Paul Davies.
__________________
Noisy
-- Visit the Counterglow Glossary --
-- London Bus Length Converter Calculator, etc. --
Currently reading: 'Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid' by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Synopsis: Towards a definition of consciousness from mathematics and logic.
Noisy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 17:24:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Counterglow 2001-2012. All rights reserved.