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Old 23-01-2016, 14:49:13   #1
paiktis
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What's wrong

Why Greece will never be saved.

Tax evasion.

It's as simple as that. No beating around the BUUUUSH.

There are loopholes to tax evade. TONS.

So a friend went to the doctor. 100 euros bill. No recept thank you.
Doctor got rich. Friend got poor. State got poor.

Another friend. Doctor 120 euros bill. No receipt. Thank you.
Doctor got rich. Friend got poor. State got poor.

Car mechanic. Same.

Plumber. Same.

LAWEYRS. Same. same. same. same.

Noone gives receipts. They lower the price somewhat (they skip the VAT completely) and no receitps.


And tsipras keeps talking bullshit. About shit.

He should say: listen here little fuckers.

You're going to have to start paying your dues. Give fucking receipts. And if they don't give you one, go report it.

Yes, it IS cheaper without a receipt. But it could be cheaper if competition between doctors made it cheeper. But I guess, it gets even more cheaper with competition AND without receipt.

So there is no solution


So fuck.
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Old 23-01-2016, 14:53:55   #2
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You can't blame the doctor for wanting to make some more blah blah

you can't blame the patient because these are difficult times blha blah


You need to sit down and say: look, it's great to tax evade, sure. More money for all except the state.

But they are not going to keep giving us money and will become a thrid world country where everyone will leave while we keep talking about shit.

So, give the fucking receipt and then please do expand on your theories about the economy, demoracy, geopolitical relations, how cute is that actresses' ass, the newly discovered planet.

But first give the fucking receipt.
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Old 23-01-2016, 14:56:24   #3
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I remember in the civilized west (where they give receipts)
I went to a doctor but since I was excempt from paying taxes anywhere (at that time)
I said, you don't need to give ma receipt.

He went like: wha???

I said, it's fine. I don't need it.

So he would get to keep all the money. Give nothing to the state. All wonderful.


It just didn't even compute. He wrote me the receipt and gave it to me almost mechanically.
receipt
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Old 23-01-2016, 15:07:37   #4
paiktis
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You don't want to give a receipt?

I have the perfect solution. Increase capital controls to 100%.


No hard cash no real money.

Everything through plastic.


Grandma doesn't know how to use her card? Give her a wireless no-touch transaction card. She just waves it in front of the machine. Done.


All payements through cards. PERIOD.

Then double check all bank invoices of doctors lawyers plumbers car mechanics, contruction workers, every last fucker and see that they have properly given a receipt for the fee they got.

Sweden abolished hard cash. Are they better than us sitting there in their -40oC freezing their dicks off?

OF COURSE NOT.


receipts
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Old 23-01-2016, 18:58:33   #5
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEkhs6n37RI
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Old 24-01-2016, 21:32:07   #6
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I actually agree. Tax evasion is a massive problem so is the government's decision to stop collecting many taxes as soon as an election gets close. They could solve this by moving to a tax system which is much harder to cheat on, such as a property tax system, but Greeks got upset when they saw a tax they could not escape from.
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Old 26-01-2016, 14:28:20   #7
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Hey paik, told you so.
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Old 26-01-2016, 15:15:11   #8
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No point in rubbing it in, eh, guys?
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Old 26-01-2016, 16:53:09   #9
paiktis
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It's not that there are no taxes payed.

It is too complicated to explain now but I have the solution right here in my mind.

If Tsipras can use all the (rapidly evaporating) public support and just do one or two things right, we're out
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Old 28-01-2016, 07:12:51   #10
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What is your solution?
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Old 28-01-2016, 10:22:09   #11
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sheep tax
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Old 28-01-2016, 12:52:48   #12
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I'll tell you what the fuck I'd wrong, the goddamn smoke alarm went off at 4:34 am and I had to change the worthless no- damn-good batteries. Thats what the fuck is wrong.
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Old 28-01-2016, 14:31:24   #13
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You have to PAY to go to the doctors?!!?!?! WTF
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Old 28-01-2016, 15:29:12   #14
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Under the table, even!!!
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Old 28-01-2016, 15:43:02   #15
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Of course there is free healthcare.
We're talking about private doctors.
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Old 28-01-2016, 16:03:54   #16
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ABout what should be done, it should start by telling people the fucking truth:

that the eurozone is screwed that the suprluses of the north are the deficits of the south and that they can go all fuck them selves.

Then we need to explain why Greece was hit hard and first and why it can't recover.

The story starts in 1980 and the first socialist government. It layed the foundations for the clusterfuck albeit increasing life standards 10 fold.

We need to go back to the roots of 1950! when Greece GDP growth rate put to shame even Japan was at the top 3 of the world and was sustainable.

Although now we need radical things done.
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Old 28-01-2016, 16:08:55   #17
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relative and absolute scales
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Old 28-01-2016, 17:18:01   #18
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Ok. So the plan is to cut gdp by 90 % and then grow it by 900%. Brilliant.
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Old 28-01-2016, 20:04:56   #19
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It was a figure of speech although it would indeed give a sense of progression that's sorely lacking
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Old 28-01-2016, 20:27:30   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funko View Post
You have to PAY to go to the doctors?!!?!?! WTF
Please don't make our USA "health care system" seem even shittier than it already is.
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Old 30-01-2016, 16:46:16   #21
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It is insane that Greece spends one of the most percentage for free health care and the results are not appropriate.

This goes for many areas.

I have had enough of this and of the public discourse that is PURPOSEFULLY obtuse, unclear and misleading.

Smart up.
Some people have profit in keeping the people in the dark.

Smart up and it's insanely easy to pass this crisis and retain a good social welfare model.
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Old 31-01-2016, 18:11:56   #22
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There is certainly a lot of room for improved efficiencis in many government programs. Paiktis's example of the government spending much more than average on health care yet getting less than average results is a good example. It seems like improving transparency so people can better find and remove waste, removing regulations to increase competition, and some how breaking the stranglehold special interests seem to have over the Greek government is what needs to be done.
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Old 01-02-2016, 16:32:26   #23
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And it's these special interests that are so hard to crack.
Because these were developed after 1980 by the socialist government and noone is openly talking about them. So we have 36 years living in this model.

The tax system is unjust but it kept going because there was outside funding for years.

Now, someone has got to break those special interet groups (that are elongated all along greek society) and has to make the tax system fair (it's not) and the pension system fair, it's not either.

Someone could be working for 40 years, he will get the same pension maybe even less than someone who worked only 15.

If you are in the special interest groups, you could get humungous pensions (3000+) but that aren't financed by your fund but in huge percentage by the state.

The state has no money to fund this difference? No problem. It borrows
Plus there are a dozen unjust out of the box taxes in order to fund these pension funds, that should not exist at all (the taxes).

And that's how we arrived at the clusterfuck

We're talking about a whole systemic shift that needs to be done (for the benefit of justice) and noone is talking CONCRETELY about it. They just throw mud in the eyes of the people.

BUT small steps could be taken. For example, tax evasion can be erradicated over night (with plastic money) because ALL the infrastructure is in place but there is no political will.
I understand that this could be a shock, but there could be rectifying measures along the way to smooth the edges of any disrepancy.


Vested special interests are harder to crack because they are thick in smoke, hiding behind complicated regulations that urgently need simplifying etc etc

Last edited by paiktis; 01-02-2016 at 16:59:40.
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Old 01-02-2016, 16:49:47   #24
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Also, there was all the time in the world in the golden years to reduce debt to gdp ratio but noone even bothered.

So...
I'm dissapointed.
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Old 01-02-2016, 17:18:22   #25
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Greece joining was a political decision. Not a financial one.
That was acknowledged from all sides.

But in financial terms, as Greece (and the whole of the south) entered a tolls free union with countries with far better industry effficiency, the import/export ratio imploded, thus producing the need for external borrowing.

It's just that the models operandi are different so in Spain etc it translated to private debt, in Greece to public debt.

So EU is not blameless in no way.

The net is in favor of joining, no doubt. Strengthened political institutions etc


Unfortunately the structural funds were used for consumption/ serving elongated vested special interests etc etc that were in turn used to keep political parties in power. They hugely improved quality of life sure.
But were not used for modernizing industry and all the political parties are fuck all responsible for anything else than staying in power.

They didn't crack down on vested interests, they promoted them.
They introduced a "lay back and collect" attitude.
They force fed the public sector to unimaginable hights.

Even when they saw the train coming in 2007-2008 they did nothing (actually expanded borrowing)


The quality of the political personel is very very low.

Either we choose to make the necessairy steps or we are uncapable/unwilling and should leave the EU now rather than later.

That's all, no need sugarcoating it.
Of course noone is examining this meticoulusly, point by point.
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Old 01-02-2016, 17:43:24   #26
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80% of farmers do not correctly report earnings.
Tax evasion in the heavy industry of tourism is rampant.

What do they do?
They increase taxes even more. That's the wrong way to go. It will make tax evasion explode.

I mean, that's fine, that's a model, but it is an unjust model.

The only ones who are paying taxes are the salaried and the public servants that have secure work for a lifetime guarantees.

private business owners tax evade like crazy. Tourism is based on that for example (but not only)

The state has been fucked royally. Used as loot for the "our guys" of whoever wins power.

Fuck that shit because it is unjust.

Don't increase taxation. Crack down on tax evasion. We're in the 21th century there are ways.

Stop using the state as your private little shop. It's not yours.

Quit relying on the hugely unjust indirect taxes. Make direct taxes work.

Depolitisize the public service employees, with concrete crystal clear laws of meritocracy and evaluation.

Everything can be made better 10 times but everyone is keep talking about shit.
We get what we give
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Old 01-02-2016, 19:59:42   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paiktis View Post
Also, there was all the time in the world in the golden years to reduce debt to gdp ratio but noone even bothered.

So...
I'm dissapointed.
I think that is completely true but not a problem just in Greece. There was a 20 year period where the global economy was growing strongly and during that time structural changes could have been made relatively painlessly if the political leaders had the foresight and desire to do so. Sadly, instead of using that opportunity to maximum effect the political elites used it to not make reforms and pretend reforms were not needed. Now, now it is obvious to all reforms are needed but it is the hardest time to actually make the needed changes.

Russia, Greece, and numerous other countries sadly missed the golden opportunity to reform things in a sustainable manner. It was a missed opportunity to really strengthen their economies for the long term.
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Old 02-02-2016, 18:37:50   #28
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tax evasion and incredible gayness
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Old 02-02-2016, 19:06:43   #29
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Old 02-02-2016, 21:07:15   #30
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Greece needs a tax on gayness
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Old 03-02-2016, 13:30:14   #31
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Theres no money in the world to pay that debt


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Old 03-02-2016, 16:18:02   #32
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The debt will never be payed back.
Instead of performing a brave debt reduction the IMF and co installed a program that whereas it envisioned a 12% GDP fall and an increase to 15% of unemplyment by 2011, in which year Greece would exist the memorandums and access markets again, it produced a staggering 25% GDP fall and a skyrocketing 28% unemployment and two more memorandums and keep counting. The drastic GDP reduction also helped balloon the gdp to debt ratio even further.

The program was wrong. The debt reduction not taking place was wrong and some things not implemented by the state (special interests still protected, direct tax evasion still not tackled etc) produced all this.

Still the people need to be aware that there was 100 bil. euros debt reduction (PSI) already and there will be an OSI in the future.

Greece cannot recover while the debt restrucuring is not taking place even if it did everything right. It drives away all investors.

Last edited by paiktis; 03-02-2016 at 16:26:42.
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Old 03-02-2016, 16:23:15   #33
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Thing is that politicians completely betrayed their role.
As said all the special interets that were and are protected helps them stay in power.
Noone will stay in power if Greece goes bust, so there needs to be a minimum consensus
I'm positive there will be a debt reduction in the future if some measures are advanced.
In the off chance that there isn't, once the economic model is restructured and made to stand on solid ground, it would be exactly the same to default.
So the changes that have to be made are non negotiable one way or the other.

You can't even have a good social policy if the system is so screwed.

It's not even a matter of "neoliberalism" vs "socialism".
For each model to produce effects (of course I prefer the latter) some bad habits need to be tackled eitherway.

Last edited by paiktis; 03-02-2016 at 16:27:39.
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Old 03-02-2016, 16:43:27   #34
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What really busts my chops is injustice.
The model, as it stands now, apart from the fact that is completely unsustainable, it is also unjust.

We need to go back to when hard work and competence was rewarded no penalized.
Everyone needs to be right vis a vis the state and the state vis a vis him/her.

Special interests and tax evasion must be tackled, no matter who is in power. Not simply because the previous model is unsustainlabe but because it is unjust.

I believe all the potential is here for this change to take effect although I do realize the immense challenges of changing something that has been in place for 36 years and counting.

I think though that the results not only are 100% wanted by the people they would make this country realize its full potential.

I'm tired of politicians selling this country short.

One good approach would be by starting to tell people the truth.
My desesperation comes from the fact that this is not taking place.
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Old 03-02-2016, 16:54:12   #35
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Everyone (economy nobelists, analysts) had predicted that by this time Greece would be out of the euro.
They had underestimated both the will of the eurozone to remain intact as well as the amazing tenacity of the Greek people to go through hardship.

The financial adjustment done from 2010 onward has no parrarel in post ww2 history.

Greece went from an unbelievable 16,7% deficit to a 2,3% surplus in a matter of years. That's unseen, anywhere.

But it was done in an unjust way because many of the pathogenies are still present.
We're so close. It would be a shame to fuck all that up.
But again, one must respect democracy and that the people know best.
But they need to be informed. They already know all of this.
It needs to be made concrete.

That paying humungus taxes for any special interest group pension fund is injust.

That tax evasion to the degree that is going on, is not normal.

That the model is screwed and a much better model is just around the corner for the benefit of all.
I know that's what they want.
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Old 03-02-2016, 17:27:46   #36
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I went there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agia_Lavra

to the birth place of Greece re-born and it kind of filled my soul (either that or fooling around with the SO on holidays)


and I bought some souvenirs and I thought
why not?
Why not the re-birth on a personal, on a national level.

Greece is filled with stories and quests that far supercede its side or influence but always manages to basically involve the whole world and pull through, many times with the beneficial intervention of external powers (that do it for their own reasons).

Why isn't that just such a case?

I think it is.
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Old 05-02-2016, 18:02:49   #37
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I agree that the tax increases only make tax fraud more likely. If everyone would just pay what is owed then the over all tax rate could be reduced and revenue would remain the same. What is needed is a system where it is much harder to cheat.

The good news is if Greece can successfully complete this round of reforms and not have the politicians blunder the economy into another recession due to a political show down then debt release talks are scheduled. Then people would be able to see that the process is producing results.
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