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Old 22-05-2002, 10:31:43   #1
DialecticMaterialist
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Tough love, empty condemnations and fake friends

I am going to get straigh tto the facts in regards to this board. And many of its members who expressed rather dogmatic and ill thought condemntaions for both me and Crystal. One (Orange) even went so far as to suggest that I "deserved a firing squad". In a fit of closed-minded fanaticism that would have never been said had Orang thought to actually apply a tiny bit of thought before blurting out his dribble. :idea: Others have said I did more harm then good in defending Crystal and imply that they did better.


In any case here are the facts and some logic applied to them:

1) I actually (with Andre) got Tia and BW to get off Crystal's backs for a little while. Something that didn't happen for months while Crystal took your people's advice and "ignored them", as well as something, that you people obviously didn't want(due to a lack of concern for Crystal) to or were unable to pull off.

2) I was the only one here that stuck up for Crystal the whole way. I actually took time to get her some justice and show her some support. Show her that at least someone wasn't going to let three older people pick on her and watch idly.

3) I exposed Tia's betrayel while many of Crystal's board friends were talking about how bad a victim Tia is. :tear: Nobody else even cared.

4) The people on this board didn't even interfere until the last minute and when they did, they did so with cheap one liners and even backed down in the face of Widow.

5) If anyone added more to this, it was people on this board. By A) Critizing Crystal for actually defending herself. (Why they criticized her and NOT Tia or BW is for initiating it is very amoral). B) And by in no way supporting Crystal.
C) Blaming her for my posts. The whole guilt by association argument, which is actually considered a fallacy in basic logic. (Not that I expect any of you to know basic logic.)

If anyone there had actually supported her or come to her aid, like a good friend or even decent person, she could have walked away from this issue unhurt. Instead people chose to giver her cheap advice and even condemn her.....the vicitim.

What would have happened even if she had taken CG's advice and ignored BW,Tia and Biased like she had done for months? The same thing, Tia and BW would have stalked Crystal and gotten under her skin again and again. With you guys doing nothing....because imo you guys quite frankly don't give a damn about Crystal.

Had you guys done anything besides what you did this would have been over a looooonnnggg time ago. I guess your idealist fantasies are more precious to you then justice,logic or someone's feelings though.

6) The advice you guys gave: "get over it" was BS and you know it. Sure it takes more effort to actually try to comfort someone and stick up for them....but it is the right thing. Some people cannot just "get over it" and even if they can, they still know or will believe that others just don't care about them. Even still, if you really believed Crystal should just "get over it" why no encouraging words to her for comfort at least? ....why did Ming then blame her for my actions getting her back "into it" Why not tell BW or Tia to "get over it" or Darkstar even or Orange who thinks I should be shot? The reason: You know how empty such statements are and so do neuroscietists:
http://www.sciam.com/2002/0302issue/...rentissue.html

a newer issue of scientific america, if you read the article, which I'm sure people with even poor analytical skills like you can do, you'd see that in it, the neurologist explains why asking certain people to "get over it" is like asking a cripple to walk.

Quote:
Until recently, psychologists believed that mistreatment during childhood led to arrested psychosocial development and self-defeating psychic defense mechanisms in adults. New brain imaging surveys and other experiments have shown that child abuse can cause permanent damage to the neural structure and functioning of the developing brain itself. [Scientific American, March 2002, Scars that Won't Heal: The Neurobiology of Child Abuse, page 70.]
In other words, a lot of personality traits stem from how the brain is developed, and things like that are not easily reversed by a snap judgement.

To quote one of the 19th centuries greatest thinkers on the concept of "tough love"

Quote:
"In my judgment, no human being was ever made better, nobler, by being whipped or clubbed." -- Robert Green Ingersoll, Cruelty in the Elmira Reformatory
You guys "supported" Crystal in one of the worst, most insesntitive, counter-productive ways possible. Showing to me that you really don't care about her. And the fact that you *only* applied that standard to Crystal, instead of Tia,BW, Darkstar or Ming shows how empty that principle was.

Some have also gone so far as to say that Crystal was at "Tia's Level"

so in other words.

Tia: Cyberstalking Crystal
Cheating on Crystal with her ex-behind Crystal's back
Phone stalking Crystal
Making Chris leave Crystal with no food for 2 weeks
Ganging up on Crystal for months with Widow and Chris
Saying anything bad that happened to Crystal was deserved
Calling Crystal Ugly and loose
As well as Pretending to be Crystal's friend in order to back stab her later on

is= to

Really bad insults about fetuses in self-defense

Wow! Those insults must have been really bad to even that scale. Especially since Crystal made them in self-defense. Especially since Crystal told the truth while Jaynie lied her ass off. Those insults must have ruined Tia's life....do you people really believe it works that way? Are you really THAT delusional and short sighted?

Also people say that it doesn't matter "who started it". In which case we should always punish anyone for self-defense as it doesn't matter about "who started it".

Sorry but the retribution theory of justice, our best theory of justice, says the opposite friends. If you disagree then better show me a better theory on what justice is.

It's obviously to me that many of you have not yet applied very much thought or logic to this situation at all. To most of you, the issue has been more about popularity than justice. To you it doesn't matter if what I said was just, because what I said wasn't "popular". My goal was to promote justice, not popularity. To be the only one that stood by Crystal as everyone else "looked the other way". To anyone who still thinks I'm wrong, all I can say is: Try to actually apply logic to the situation instead of sneering at us from on top of your high horses.

I expect all responses to this to be short as I know none of you can refute me point for point in a rational or moral manner. That is why I don't respect a single one of you. Or take a single thing you say seriously even if Crystal does. Good day.
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Old 22-05-2002, 10:34:53   #2
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You don't really expect anyone to read that do you?
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Old 22-05-2002, 10:40:50   #3
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BTW, MIng, as for your holding Crystal hostage for things I do and trying to use her to get at me: That's fucking sick. And you know it.

But then again what should I expect from someone ho openly says "I don't care about who's right or wrong".

Then tells me to "Take it to PMS"...and bans me after I do.

Showing that you were partial to a side and were willing to get involved.(Which is obvious as I didn't disturb anyone via the public forums).

I could tell that rather quickly after you threatened BW for bad mouthing me and then failed to do so after she did(calling me shit, etc)....Ming the merciless .
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Old 22-05-2002, 10:41:23   #4
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Mike:Case and point

Quote:
I expect all responses to this to be short as I know none of you can refute me point for point in a rational or moral manner. That is why I don't respect a single one of you. Or take a single thing you say seriously even if Crystal does.
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Old 22-05-2002, 10:44:05   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
<snip>
I expect all responses to this to be short ...
<snip>
Fuck off and leave us alone.
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Old 22-05-2002, 10:46:37   #6
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I've got much better things to do with my life than read all that and refute it point by point and I don't give a fuck whether you respect me or take me seriously.
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Old 22-05-2002, 10:53:48   #7
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I don't know who the fuck you are, who Crystal, Orange, Tia and Andre are.

I have no idea what you're talking about. This is obvioulsy yet more PolyCrap (tm).

Why the fuck are you posting your dribble here, and why in the world should I (we) care ? If you have a problem with the advice that was given to you by some people who happen to be posting here as well as on Poly, then why don't you post your complain there, or send a private message to those people, instead of boring us with your problems ?

In other words, as Noisy put it: Fuck off and leave us alone.

Thank you.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:04:39   #8
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Someone bring me a hot towel, my brain hurts...

Dialectic Materialist? Is that something like a Logical Realist?
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:04:41   #9
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Aredhran if you really didn't care you wouldn't have responded. Your actions contradict your statements.

And to recap:
Quote:
I expect all responses to this to be short as I know none of you can refute me point for point in a rational or moral manner. That is why I don't respect a single one of you. Or take a single thing you say seriously even if Crystal does.
Every post I see proves my point to be more and more true.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:08:10   #10
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are you fucking a man?
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:09:18   #11
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Look to your pro-centre in your time of need.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:14:11   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by DialecticMaterialist
Every post I see proves my point to be more and more true.
Well done. You can go now.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:14:35   #13
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who? who? who? think you got the wrong board buddy.

if any thread her deserves closing. this does.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:14:56   #14
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So is Crystal ugly and loose?
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:21:52   #15
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I was soo hoping for a funny, short first post, but nope, long story with difficult werds. So dogmatic.

Remind me to skip Texas if I ever visit the states.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:24:10   #16
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Is the the complete moron contest?
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:26:02   #17
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The more I read the first post, the less idea I have what he is waffling on about...
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:27:40   #18
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What's it about?
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:27:57   #19
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DialecticMaterialist you really are one sad fucking cunt.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:29:17   #20
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Does Crystal have balls?
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:29:18   #21
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it's called pissing on a forum
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:37:59   #22
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I read the first post in the end and I have no idea what 99% of this is about. I don't want to know either. I don't know why DiureticMoron thinks we do want to know about it and I certainly don't know why he thinks we've given bad advice when we have no idea what he's on about. Perhaps he thinks we read those posts when the poly equivalent of the Jerry Springer show decides to come and argue here. Actually DM we don't read those posts in exactly the same as we aren't reading your post now. Please go and annoy someone else with this crap.
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:41:21   #23
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....and you are a fucking twat!
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:41:32   #24
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Yes, take this crap and go to, .... go ... to ..... g .. oo .. tt ... .tt.. . tas. g.. g gffg v gfyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyn go ... to ...Po ... po .... Pouatemala!
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Old 22-05-2002, 11:50:29   #25
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" expect all responses to this to be short..."

Really ?

Look, the view of EU governance and of the need to reform it has markedly changed over time. For a long time, the major problem of EU governance was seen to lie in its limited decision-making capacity. Member states? wide-ranging veto powers (Scharpf 1988), collective action problems for private interest groups (Streeck/Schmitter 1991) and the regulatory competition triggered by the Single Market Programme (Woolcock 1996) severely constrained the leeway available for political decision-making. Recently this view has changed. Empirical research has demonstrated how time and again the EU has overcome the different interests of its member states and has moved into new policy fields (Hritier et al. 1996, Eichener 1997, Hritier 1999). This literature concludes that the EU?s decision-making capacity is in fact greater than previously suspected (Grande 2000).

2

However, the European Union?s better-than-expected success as a decision-making machine has not removed the concern with governance performance. Without contesting relative (and variable) ?success?, most observers still consider the EU political system plagued by serious performance problems. These concern effectiveness (of decision-making) and, even more often, democratic legitimacy. New challenges to EU governance compound these problems: Partly as a victim of its own success, the EU is now confronted with an ever-expanding agenda, of which Eastern enlargement constitutes only the tip of the iceberg. Most dramatic of all, the discrepancy between what the EU is expected to manage and the level of legitimacy enjoyed by EU institutions seems to be increasing. This translates into a growing reluctance to grant regulatory powers to the EU, notably to the Commission. The mismatch between the challenge and the capacity, between the expectations and legitimacy, threaten to turn into a vicious circle in which low effectiveness and low legitimacy fuel one another.

Can new governance provide escape routes? First of all: what is new about new governance? Defined in negativo, new modes of governance depart from the Community Method of legislating through the use of regulations and directives. They build on the participation of private actors in policy formulation, relying on broad consultation and substantive input. Policy-making follows a procedural logic in which there is joint target-setting and peer assessment of national performances under broad and unsanctioned European guidance (cf. Hritier 2001a).

The best example of new governance is the ?Open Method of Coordination?. This concept originated in the European Employment Strategy as laid down in the Amsterdam Treaty (1997). The Lisbon European Council (March 2000) coined the expression and defined the contours of the ?Open Method?, and the Portuguese Presidency called for its general implementation.(1) The essence of the OMC is ?not to establish a single common framework, but rather to share experience and to encourage the spread of best practice? (Wallace 2000: 33). OMC seeks to initiate an iterative process of mutual learning on the basis of diverse national experiences with reform experiments. While there are fixed guidelines and timetables for achieving goals at the EU level policies and specific targets are spelled out on the national level. National performance is constantly monitored and evaluated through peer review and benchmarking ? mechanisms which act as ?soft law? catalysts for greater convergence towards European ?best practice?. This clearly contrasts with traditional, top-down and command and control type regulation backed by ?hard-law? sanctions (for presentations of OMC see Mosher 2000; Hodson/ Maher 2001; Bisopolous 2001).

The Open Method has been touted as the ?third way? in EU governance, to be used when ?harmonization is unworkable but mutual recognition and the resulting regulatory competition may be too risky? (Trubek/ Mosher 2001: 21). It avoids strict regulatory requirements and allows experiments that are adapted to local circumstances, while fostering policy improvement, and possibly policy convergence, through institutionalized mutual learning processes. This sounds like a very attractive escape route from the dilemma of European governance ? but is it relevant and effective?

A priori, many doubts and concerns can be levelled against the Open Method (e.g. Mosher 2000). As a largely voluntary exercise, it lacks the bite of real sanctions, especially when it comes to implementing broadly defined targets. Participants might only be ?willing? to learn from others and adopt ?best practice? if there is a credible ?shadow of hierarchy?. Thus, it might simply serve to support the pursuit of symbolic politics, instead of supporting real action. Also, participation is likely to be selective, so that exclusive interests will shape the content of ?best practice?. Decision-making might not be less elitist and opaque than in traditional governance, and thus it may not enhance the legitimacy of EU governance.

Finally, there are concerns related to the novel character of the Open Method. In the past, a similar type of informal coordination has often been used, notably by the Commission, to prepare the ground for formal legislation. Therefore, the Open Method could turn out to be a subtle ?transitional mechanism?, geared towards transferring formal competences to the EU level (Hodson/ Maher 2001: 16).

In the debate on the actual significance of new modes of governance for the EU, two lines of inquiry have thus far been dominant. The first seeks to assess the salience of new governance on the basis of the strategic and programmatic role they play in the repertoire of EU institutions, most notably of the Commission. The second tries to empirically measure the significance of new modes of governance ? either their relative weight compared to old-style regulation or their success in terms of performance indicators.

The first strand is exemplified by the current discussion about the White Paper on European Governance. Many analysts expected this paper to give a considerable boost to new modes of governance. Early last year the incoming Prodi Commission launched a large debate on the reform of European Governance. The idea was to explore and investigate new concepts and methods for European governance, in a large consultation process involving governments experts, academics and civil society. ?Governance Teams? within the Commission developed the White Paper on European Governance that was finally published on 27 July 2001.

Academic observers who had hoped to find a radical reorientation of the aims and strategies of European governance in the White Paper were rather disappointed.(2) Sure, on the basis of five principles of good governance (openness, participation, accountability, effectiveness and coherence) the Commission advanced proposals for change so as to achieve, most notably, ?better involvement?, and ?better policies, regulation, and delivery?. And in this context, new modes of governance, ranging from co- and self-regulation to the Open Method of coordination and independent regulatory agencies, received considerable attention. However, ?the White Paper concludes by proposing an enhanced (more supranational) ?Community Method?, with an augmented executive role for the Commission itself, the cornerstone of its model for the future of the EU. The result seems somewhat unbalanced, with new modes of governance ? which the exercise apparently aimed at exploring ? defined so to limit their encroachment on the Community Method and relegated to a secondary role? (Wincott 2001: 2).

True, the White Paper reflects the ?institutional self-interest of the Commission? (Scharpf 2001: 2; also Hritier 2001b) and the ?lack of a new vision? (Metcalfe 2001: 3). However, on the basis of this, one should not rush to dismiss new modes of governance as nothing but a convenient smokescreen for the Commission to pursue revitalised but old-style regulation. For one thing, ?the published papers of the Commission working groups that contributed to the White Paper show forward thinking and a recognition that innovation is essential to meet new challenges? (Metcalfe 2001: 3) ? even if the progressive elements apparently did not muster up sufficient politico-bureaucratic support to dominate the thrust of the White Paper, which, after all, is a highly political document.

Most importantly, documents such as the White Paper cannot be viewed as an authoritative and exhaustive guide to the ?real? policy-approach of key actors such as the Commission. They are notoriously political, ambigious, and thus difficult to decipher. And they are not a reliable guide to a complex ?policy reality?.

The second strand of inquiry seeks, by contrast, to empirically assess the significance of new modes of governance in the reality of EU policy-making. From a purely quantitative viewpoint, the bulk of EU governance clearly governs traditionally, i.e. through legislation. Alternative approaches to governance are confined to a small group of measures concentrated in a very small number of policy fields. Next to environmental policy, most examples for new modes of governance can be found in the field of social policy and industrial relations (Hritier 2001a).
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:02:27   #26
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You are wrong, Roland
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:08:13   #27
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:11:33   #28
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I can in fact refute Roland's argument point by point, so that I don't seem like an obvious idiot.

Point 1: This is wrong.
Point 2: This is also wrong.
Points 3-17: These are so wrong.
Point 18: This may be right, but it makes everything else wrong.
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:29:49   #29
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"Point 18: This may be right, but it makes everything else wrong."

Petitio principii. Pathetic. Pfft.
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:35:07   #30
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The only thing I have to say on this matter is that Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) was first identified in the early 1980s. AIDS is one of the best examples of an acquired immunodeficiency disease is probably the best studied due to the extreme risk posed by the disease to the whole of society. This disease renders its victims open to attack by a whole range of diseases and rare forms of cancer.
AIDS was first identified in the United States in healthy people who were attacked by diseases only found in people with immune deficiencies, and upon investigation, the count of CD4+ cells was markedly diminished in these individuals. Although it was initially found only amongst homosexuals, it was soon found in other sectors, including those who have taken intravenous drugs, blood transfusions and had sexual intercourse with people with AIDS. This indicated that the disease was transmissible. Since this time when the number of people infected was low, recent worldwide figures for infection by HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, is estimated in the millions. Research on AIDS revealed that HIV (human immunodeficiency virus), a retrovirus, was the causative agent.
Two forms of HIV exist, HIV-1 and HIV-2. They share structural and molecular similarity with SIV (simian immunodeficiency virus) and other members of the lentivirus family. Structurally, HIV possesses an RNA genome with two bound molecules of reverse transcriptase. Surrounding the genome is a cylindrical core of protein consisting of p17 and p24. Outside this is a lipid bilayer envelope which is acquired from the host cell by a process known as budding, with the glycoproteins gp120 and gp41, the former spans the membrane and the other is covalently attached on the outer surface, e.g.:

HIV Infection of Target Cell: The entry of HIV into the cell involves two processes. Firstly, the virions must bind to the appropriate proteins on the target cell, followed by fusion of the viral envelope. Upon entry of the virus into the host cell, its genome is converted to DNA and is integrated into the host genome, forming a provirus, which can be activated to produce more viruses.
In the first step of HIV infection, the viral glycoprotein gp120 binds to receptors in the target cell. Because the CD4 membrane molecule on the surface of TH cells is the principle cellular receptor for HIV, the virus is said to be lymphotrophic. Some other cells such as macrophages, monocytes, dendritic cells also express low levels of CD4 and thus exhibit some binding of HIV. HIV-2 is the less virulant strain, and this may be accounted for by the fact that it has a lower binding affinity of CD4 by a factor of around 25.
It has been proved that CD4 is the protein which HIV recognises due to transferring the gene that encodes CD4 into cells in culture that lack CD4. It is found that after this transfer, these HIV resistant cells become susceptible. The CD4 binding sequence has also been determined. This was done by investigating gp120. After cleaving it into fragments and then raising monoclonal antibodies against each fragment, and then determining whether any of these antibodies can inhibit gp120 from binding to CD4. From this, a largely conserved region of amino acids on the carboxy terminal region of gp120 was found, which is involved in binding to CD4.
Although the CD4 is a high affinity binding molecule for HIV, it has been shown that it is not sufficient for binding, for example, even if the gene for CD4 is transfected into mouse cells, it is still not possible for HIV to attack the cell. Also some cells that lack CD4 can still be infected by HIV. This would indicate that another protein may be present for HIV to infect the immune system, and another pathway could exist other that gp120 and CD4.
After the initial binding of HIV to its receptor, the viral envelope fuses with the target-cell plasma membrane. This fusion is thought to be induced by a hydrophobic region near the amino terminus of gp41 (known as the fusogenic domain). After this fusion, the nucleocapsid is internalised and the viral RNA uncoated, and then infection can proceed.
Once this stage of infection has occurred, the RNA present within the virus is transcribed into DNA, and is then integrated into the cells genome to create the provirus. Once this has occurred, the cell can enter a latent phase, in which nothing will occur and can pass on the information to its progeny. When activation does occur, transcription of the viral DNA into mRNA occurs, which results in the synthesis of the appropriate protein and the construction of viruses. The host plasma membrane will then have gp41 and gp120, and the capsid protein can assemble beneath the surface of the modified membrane, and this host membrane becomes the viral envelope, which is known as budding. In some cases, this process goes on at a low level and the cell can survive. Alternatively this can occur so much that it results in lysis of the cell. Infection of monocytes and macrophages, however, does not lead to the death of the cell and it is thought that they are responsible for acting as a reservoir and carrying the virus to various organs, including across the blood-brain barrier. It is thought that the major method of transfer of HIV is directly between cells as the level of HIV is usually low in fluids such as serum and vaginal fluids and even lower in fluids such as urine and saliva.
Although HIV can infect other cells, not just CD4+ T-cells, these cells are the major target of the attack and are severely depleted as a result. The infection of other cells does have an effect, such as the infection of microglia cells in the brain is thought to lead to many of the neurological problems associated with AIDS.
The effect of the attack of HIV on CD4+ T-cells is quite dramatic. Normally, the ratio of CD4+ to CD8+ is about 2. However when under attack, this ratio can be anywhere between 1 and 0.2. The bizarre thing about this infection is that only a low proportion of these T-cells are infected (0.001%), yet a very large proportion of the CD4+ T-cells are destroyed in the infection. This is thought to be because of several reasons. It could be the result of soluble gp120 binding to CD4 on the membrane of T-cells inducing the fusion of cells leading to syncytia formation (a large cluster of fused cells), which lyse within a short period of time. This large amount of soluble gp120 is available because the association between gp120 and gp41 is fairly weak, and hence a lot of gp120 is released into bodily fluid. Another theory of why this depletion occurs is because as gp120 binds to CD4, it prevents its capability in binding to an antigen-presenting cell and thus results in cell death, as the interaction with the antigen-presenting cell is stabilised by CD4 which is involved in transducing the activation signal. Also the binding of the gp120 may also resulting in the binding of antibodies raised to gp120 to the T-cell, resulting in cell lysis. Another theory that could also potentially account for the depletion of CD4+ cells is that gp120 binding to CD4 may produce an incorrect signal to the cell. This inappropriate activation may prevent memory cell formation, leading to an exhaustion of memory T-cell formation and a gradual decrease in CD4+ T-cells. This can account for many of the findings of AIDS, such as non-specific immune activation, spontaneous lymphocyte proliferation and hence the autoimmune response. Of course, such a problem may be as a result of various factors.
Under normal circumstances, this depletion of T-cells would induce T-cell maturation in the thymus gland to restore numbers. However, it is also thought that gp120 also interferes with maturation, interfering with positive selection of class II MHC restricted cells, resulting in destruction of T-cells in the thymus. This destruction of T-cells in action, as well as those in education could account for the extremely low numbers of CD4+ T-cells.
This pronounced deficiency of CD4+ cells in the body would lead to an imbalance in the production of lymphokines, and there are findings that would back up that this imbalance contributes to the pathogenesis of AIDS. Elevated levels of IL-6, GM-CSF and TNF-a have been reported in the serum, and that the concentration of certain lymphokines may contribute to the transformation from the latent phase to the lytic phase, as it has been shown that TNF-a stimulates HIV expression in infected T-cells, and other lymphokines have similar effects in other cells. Indeed, the proviral genes are flanked by LTR sequences, which are involved in the transcription regulation of the proviral genes and show considerable homology to similar sequences involved in the activation of T-cells, thus indicating that the same stimuli that activate T-cells may also activate the lytic stage of the production of HIVs.
Activation of the provirus genes have been found to be activated by several nuclear binding proteins (two of these, NFAT-1 and NF-kB normally take place in the activation of genes involved in the proliferation of T-cells) including those responsible for the synthesis of IL-2 and receptors to IL-2. This would appear to suggest that HIV activation is dependent upon T-cell activation.
Although the HIV virus appears to principally attack CD4+ TH cells, due to their central role in both humoural and cell-mediated response, the result is one that incapacitates the entire immune system. The effect of this attack interferes with the cells secretion of lymphokines, which are extremely important messengers in the immune system. Of course, if there are fewer TH cells, there are less lmphokines secreted. The effect of this lymphokine imbalance on the relatively unaffected CD8+ TC cells is severe, as IL-2 is required for the progression of these cells into CTLs.
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:35:44   #31
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I expect all answers to be rather long-winded actually
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:37:02   #32
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*faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaart*
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:43:35   #33
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Excellent
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:52:15   #34
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PH, you forgot to quote stuff in your post. Once more, but correct this time, please.
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:52:57   #35
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And this time with feeling.
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:54:58   #36
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You don't really expect anyone to read that do you?


I think my record is about 2 sentences of any of their bile.
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Old 22-05-2002, 12:55:12   #37
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I don't need to quote it as I wrote it
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:01:10   #38
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I presume Crystal = Devil Munchkin and you disagree with the advice she wa sgiven here in the Ming thread. Frankly I don't care one little bit what you think of us or this board. As Noisy put it: Fuck off and leave us alone. I'd rather have James than you any day.

er ... [size=0.5] Did I really say that?[/size]
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:04:07   #39
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I hate it when people spill their problems nobody cares about across a forum and complain about the advice later.

My only advice for all of you:

get professional help.
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:11:14   #40
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The only thing I have to say on this matter is that Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) was first identified in the early 1980s.
Serious question - is that true? AIDS wasn't known about before the early 80's?
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:11:47   #41
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Yep
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:19:13   #42
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Those were the days :-)
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:21:10   #43
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All you had to worry about when you forgot your condoms was to avoid getting girls preggie.... (apparently - I was only 14 at the time and not particularly adavanced).

Does anyone remember the first Government advert campaign warning against aids?
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:23:27   #44
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I remember some of them not necessarily the first one.
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:24:33   #45
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Something to do with a gravestone falling into the screen. Really crap.

Jesus - was it really 20 years ago.....
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:28:02   #46
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Quote:
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Serious question - is that true? AIDS wasn't known about before the early 80's?
I am just trying to remember, but this is right. I don't think they knew what it was before then, it was then it was identified and then, of course, they could identify what it was in previous cases, and thus attempt to track it back to it's origins./
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:29:28   #47
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I think I heard about it in 1982
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:29:32   #48
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Something to do with a gravestone falling into the screen. Really crap.

Jesus - was it really 20 years ago.....
I remember that advert when I was a kid...at least they did achieve their objectives, public awareness.
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:31:47   #49
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They were advertizing AIDS? It was free over here.
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Old 22-05-2002, 13:31:59   #50
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Got a great email today about how high school kids now doing their exams are born in 1984, 1985. About them not knowing what a longplay record is, that data could be stored on cassette tapes, why people would wear neoncolourd clothes and shoulderpatches, who JR was, etc, etc,. Unfortunately, it's in Dutch.

I'm old. I even saw a young kid who had to make a phonecall and didn't know how to use a dial phone.
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