Counterglow Forums  

Go Back   Counterglow Forums > General Discussions > Games

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 24-02-2010, 09:06:24   #1
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
Civ V Announced

The other day.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ci...ced-for-autumn

Out in the autumn. It uses hexes instead of squares for the grid, which some nerds are creaming their pants about. And apparently it's "one unit per tile". It does look pretty nice.

Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 09:29:34   #2
Fistandantilus
Registered User
 
Fistandantilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
But but... there is no religion!!!one11!!11one
Fistandantilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 09:36:42   #3
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
They might have gone back to generic religious buildings. I don't really mind. It's just one other distraction from managing your military.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 10:08:27   #4
Scabrous Birdseed
for your usergroup and post count
 
Scabrous Birdseed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Among the clouds
CIVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
__________________
Birdseed's Tunedown
Scabrous Birdseed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 12:00:08   #5
MDA
Registered User
 
MDA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: updated his email address and can look but not post
whoa
MDA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 12:31:24   #6
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funko View Post
It uses hexes instead of squares for the grid, which some nerds are creaming their pants about.
I'm presuming you're tlaking about that incredibly nerdy civ site there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funko View Post
And apparently it's "one unit per tile". It does look pretty nice.
I am guessing that cities are exempt from that rule (I ask here seeing as I can't see the info on the eurogamer page)?

That's going to make for some interesting tactics. If your attack minded units move to the front line to attack, they leave themselves open to counterattack as you can't stack them with defensive units any more. And with units like Chariots and horsemen you will need to balance their speed against their weak defence w/r to how quickly you advance!

It will add some strategy, but whether it will be a good thing or not I am not sure...
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 12:50:31   #7
Cheshire Cat
on a branch
 
Cheshire Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ches-here
Hexes:
FreeCiv already introduced hexes as one of the available topological options, so they had to cope with it


One unit per tile:
hhhmmmm... Diplomacy-style?
will this lead to several units attacking the same target at the same time from different tiles, i.e. simultaneous-turns?


________________

see also

http://www.firaxis.com/news/news_detail.php?id=761

http://www.civilization5.com/


____
edit:
and http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61185
__________________
< grin >

Last edited by Cheshire Cat; 24-02-2010 at 13:07:16.
Cheshire Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 12:54:08   #8
Cheshire Cat
on a branch
 
Cheshire Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ches-here
Lapha Centauri?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg W View Post
I'm presuming you're tlaking
are you still on that "paly", or is that just a honest typo???
__________________
< grin >
Cheshire Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 13:11:05   #9
Cheshire Cat
on a branch
 
Cheshire Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ches-here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funko View Post
It uses hexes instead of squares for the grid, which some nerds are creaming their pants about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg W View Post
I'm presuming you're tlaking about that incredibly nerdy civ site there.
not only that

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60150

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._3_1_duale.gif

__________________
< grin >

Last edited by Cheshire Cat; 24-02-2010 at 13:13:13.
Cheshire Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 13:33:30   #10
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
I'm sure it'll still be cylindrical.

Love the messageboard heroes:

"I see no reason for a few pentagons to affect the AI."

Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 13:39:26   #11
Fistandantilus
Registered User
 
Fistandantilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Quote:
Lapha Centauri?
Fistandantilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 13:51:50   #12
Cheshire Cat
on a branch
 
Cheshire Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ches-here
OP pic, full size

http://www.civilization5.com/img/scr...eenshot_03.jpg
__________________
< grin >
Cheshire Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2010, 14:57:26   #13
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheshire Cat View Post
are you still on that "paly", or is that just a honest typo???
Er... Honest typo.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2010, 09:28:56   #14
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2010, 09:38:32   #15
Fistandantilus
Registered User
 
Fistandantilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Cool.
Fistandantilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2010, 12:23:32   #16
MDA
Registered User
 
MDA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: updated his email address and can look but not post
The trailer reminds me of the tech quotes from Alpha Centauri
MDA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2010, 13:16:09   #17
Fistandantilus
Registered User
 
Fistandantilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Yeah, that's what makes it so good
Fistandantilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-02-2010, 13:43:00   #18
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
They are going back to something more like the AC method of civics too by the sound of it.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 12:35:51   #19
maroule
Intermittent du spectacle
 
maroule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
yay, nice trailer
I'm one of the nerds creaming my pants, btw
maroule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 12:55:23   #20
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Well, at least they're your own pants you're creaming!
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 12:58:10   #21
MDA
Registered User
 
MDA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: updated his email address and can look but not post
you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last tissue
MDA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 12:58:10   #22
Venom
Look out behind you!
 
Venom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rudolph's stable
PASS!
__________________
TO MY BALLS!!!!!
or
TO LazyView!!!!

Venom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 13:08:55   #23
maroule
Intermittent du spectacle
 
maroule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg W View Post
Well, at least they're your own pants you're creaming!
well no, funny thing actually, we just found out the missus was pregnant
maroule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 13:32:15   #24
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
Congratulations
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 14:12:17   #25
MDA
Registered User
 
MDA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: updated his email address and can look but not post
ha!
MDA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 14:12:47   #26
MDA
Registered User
 
MDA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: updated his email address and can look but not post
<tadpole joke>
MDA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 14:49:43   #27
maroule
Intermittent du spectacle
 
maroule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
hey, thanks!
number two is supposedly easier than the first one (one hopes)


coming back on civ 4, it would be nirvana if they could keep the amazing global balance in strategic terms, and yet incorporate tactical brilliance, which has always been a game changer ; in a game of civ, you just can't re-enact historical shifts like alexander, the bigger forces win, full point. It's quite mecanic, and cumulative, once you reach the tipping point (for example taking the opponent's capital), it's pretty much game over.

I'd wet my paints even more with a merge civ 4 / total war tacticalr esolution... we'll get there one day...
maroule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2010, 15:01:45   #28
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Ah, what a way for me to ferret out that piece of information!

Congrats, that's great news!
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 10:34:09   #29
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Was reading up on this a bit earlier on the 2k games site forum as they had a link off the front page to it. Sounds very interesting, though there are perhaps a few ideas that will need to be seen before I make my mind up if I like them or not.

City States sounds interesting. Religion I am not so sure whether losing it is a good thing or not. Barbarian Cities could be good too. No tech trading I am really not sure about, even if your allies help with tech. Different continent types sounds intriguing.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 12:23:08   #30
Fistandantilus
Registered User
 
Fistandantilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
No tech trading is really surprising, going to have a big impact in MP.
Fistandantilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 12:30:03   #31
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
but you can combine research with allies to research quicker. And if you later backstab them and go to war you lose your shared research. Which I quite like. It's given a simple good reason not to backstab your allies, and a way of getting research done faster.

The tech trading was so hard to teach the AI to do properly I think this is a great option.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 13:31:27   #32
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Can't see why the AI found it so hard to trade techs, really, especially since you can see figures (tech costs) for them. They basically need to trade 1-1 at the least, but they should be willing to pay less for techs that aren't suited to them (ex: military techs for a peace loving civ) and more for those they love (Military techs for war mongers). Same applies to trading away techs they are suited to or not.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 13:38:04   #33
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
'cause it is one of those things that humans find very easy to do but it's very hard to program the myriad of things we take into account when we make that decision.

Because some techs are much more important than others and the tech cost doesn't reflect their importance. Plus many massively vary in importance depending what else you've researched and what the other civ has. Quite a few have benefits if you are the first to research them but after that they are low priority... And the AI was rubbish at being able to see what techs other civs have, work out what they wanted and beeline to a tech and then sell it to everyone else who wanted it. And it depends on how militant the other tech is and how far away they are.

eg. I would often give away military techs to Monty when he was too far away to attack me because he was never good enough to survive/win on his own but he could really annoy other AIs if he had enough tech. Or I'd sell a low grade/low impact tech for cash to many people, when I needed the money.

Human ability to be creative in tech trading was a massive imbalance in CivIV. Fine in MP because everyone is on a level playing field.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 14:05:27   #34
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
See, I'm not sure I ever broke it down that far tbh. About the furthest I'd go is not trading techs with wonders I was currently building (until it was too late for someone else to build them) or trading super military techs.

I guess I see your point on harder difficulty levels, but then to an extent that could be applied to anything, like giving world maps away, giving open borders and so on.

Dunno, did you ever hear a developer say that, or is that just your (or other people's) guesses? AI is always hard to code, but to me tech trading is probably (I've never coded AI so I am guessing) simpler than some of the other things you need to teach the AI to do.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 14:12:07   #35
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
On harder difficulties (Monarch and up) it's practically the only way you can stay in touch with techs at lower levels...

Quite a lot of discussion about it when people were modding the AI at Poly, yeah.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 14:12:53   #36
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
Or the only way I can anyway, finding micromanagement way too tedious.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 14:29:31   #37
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Oh well, we'll see how the new system works I guess. Is going to make alliances more important, which is never a bad thing.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 16:32:36   #38
Cheshire Cat
on a branch
 
Cheshire Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ches-here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funko View Post
but you can combine research with allies to research quicker. And if you later backstab them and go to war you lose your shared research. Which I quite like. It's given a simple good reason not to backstab your allies, and a way of getting research done faster.

The tech trading was so hard to teach the AI to do properly I think this is a great option.
disclaimer:
didn't delve in all the recent news
didn' play Civ III and IV

Consideration:
I find it hard to get excited about "Civ novelties" which are actually old concepts seen and exploited in depth in other games

questions:

no tech trading
so you now can be allied for life to a Civ who knows a key advanced tech, and they "can't" give it to you?
sounds like the Vulcans in ST: Enterprise
- can you still steal tech?
- can you still conquer tech? (spoils)
- can you still learn it thru Great Library?
- allies contribute to your research: I figure that's easily implemented via extra bulbs coming from the Pact (seen in for instance in Space Empires). I find it hard to imagine how you can lose them when you break a Pact once you accumlated them, and especially if you already earned a tech advance

one unit per hex
- can you "cross" a tile occupied by one of your units, if there's a free hex in range behind it?
- would that be allowed at least for jets? can't they fly over an eney land units frontline too?



__________________
< grin >
Cheshire Cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 17:08:06   #39
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
We know that you will be able to stack an air unit, land military unit and civilian unit on one tile. (also all boats can hold land units).

I think that you can't cross an occupied hex, but don't have a definitive answer.

You couldn't conquer techs in CivIV, dunno whether that's back. The Oracle provided a free tech, and I think something else did. Democracy maybe? The Great Library gave you a big research bonus and access to great scientist points... I think the wonders are supposed to be mostly comparable to CivIV.

CivIV really was good.

And yes, there's nothing here that isn't already found in other games, and the designers have been quite open that the combat is based on Panzer General.

And they also seem to be going back to social policies a la Alpha Centauri rather than civics.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 17:26:22   #40
Fistandantilus
Registered User
 
Fistandantilus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funko View Post
... Democracy maybe?
I think it was first to discover Liberalism, possibly others as well can't remember.

Anyway Civ4 was a huge improvement over Civ3 and a big step in the right direction imho. I don't mind if they borrow ideas from other games as long as they are good ones
Fistandantilus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 17:27:03   #41
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
Liberalism, that's it. I think Democracy was next on the chain...
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2010, 17:51:32   #42
King_Ghidra
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo
 
King_Ghidra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: MORAL HARDCORE CHAMPION
I had some big sessions on civ iv not long ago. Bought it off Steam with all the add-ons. Lots of fun.

I think my fave development over the series was the power of culture to expand borders and turn cities. Liked that idea a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fistandantilus View Post
But but... there is no religion!!!one11!!11one
Is that true? I liked the implementation of religion in civ iv, even if it was a bit complicated and messy - lifelike you might say. I had a fun game creating a christian fundamentalist empire.
__________________
i check my hair at the elevator mirror and the highlight of my day when I say hi to a girl who's opposite of the elevator door at my floor. the one i went out with.
after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
-paiktis
King_Ghidra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2010, 01:08:17   #43
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Yeah, it's mentioned in the link I posted.

I bought all the Civ IV games ages ago, but I've also played a few games recently and Civ IV is indeed great fun.

- Culture = great.

- Religion = good, but with some drawbacks, such as making it very hard to stay peaceful for long with people of other religions. In some cases, that's a good thing, but it's not as if Christians/Muslims/Taoists/etc have bad relations with every other religion. Also only downloaded the most recent patch the other week so it was good to see a religious mission to discover my Holy Mountain. Did add a certain flavour to the game trying to convert AI cities to your religion though.

- Diplomatic history = great. It may have been used before but it was good to see all the modifiers.

- AI cheating = bad. Still caught the AI out exploring over ocean squares with galleys! That really makes rushing to Compass and... er, the other tech that gives you the first ocean going vessels... useless.

One thing I find interesting is that they say that combined arms armies will be much more important. How they're going to implement this with one unit per hex I am not sure. If your warrior unit has an archer unit standing behind it, does said archer unit provide defensive fire if your warrior unit is attacked? What about if they're on a flank rather than behind? I am intrigued to see how that all works.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2010, 08:47:56   #44
Funko
Pubs Minister
 
Funko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Ghidra View Post
Is that true? I liked the implementation of religion in civ iv, even if it was a bit complicated and messy - lifelike you might say. I had a fun game creating a christian fundamentalist empire.
Yeah.

Although when they introduced the apostolic palace in Beyond the Sword it became too important in the game... I liked the initial implementation.
Funko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2010, 12:44:19   #45
Tau Ceti
G8 star
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg W View Post
- AI cheating = bad. Still caught the AI out exploring over ocean squares with galleys! That really makes rushing to Compass and... er, the other tech that gives you the first ocean going vessels... useless.
I think you must be mistaken here, Greg. I must have several hundred games under my belt, and can quite confidently say that this has never happened. I have also never read anything about it anywhere. As a direct violation of the game's written rules, it would have got attention, and people would have demanded a fix.

Galleys are allowed to cross ocean squares as long as they are within your cultural borders, so they can cross some straits. They do not cross open sea, though. If you play on an Archipelago map, you can see this after Astronomy when lots of galleons are sent in all directions as the AI tries to settle the last remaining free pieces of land.

I am skeptical of Civ V. One thing is that I think it would be very difficult to improve on Civ IV in any meaningful way, but another is that the new ideas just do not look particularly good to me. They appear to be trying to turn Civ into a sort of tactical wargame, which I do not think it is particularly suited for. It has always been about both building and warfare, but not about fancy maneuvers on the battlefield. Also, games with one unit per hex have tended to have movement rates of at least 3-4 for the slowest units, and usually maps that are understood to be much more local than the whole world. It would be strange to see Civ go in that direction, but I think it will be hard to make it work if they don't.

Who knows, maybe they can succeed. But nearly all the changes they have listed so far sound like they will make me less likely to enjoy it.
Tau Ceti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2010, 13:40:45   #46
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Ah, I didn't know the cultural borders thing. I thought it was just that Ocean squares were out full stop. It may very well have crossed ocean squares within it's borders. Think that's a little odd though, as is cultural borders spreading over unused ocean squares.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2010, 17:50:15   #47
Tau Ceti
G8 star
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oslo, Norway
I suppose it represents smaller excursions from familiar waters. It is also a way of simulating, for instance, the Vikings going from Scandinavia to Iceland, then to Greenland, and then to North America. A daunting voyage if done in one step, but made possible by the presence of settlements along the way.

Cultural borders never extend more than one ocean square away from the coast, so the effect is limited as well.
Tau Ceti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2010, 02:18:08   #48
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Ok, well that's not so bad then.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-03-2010, 23:29:42   #49
MDA
Registered User
 
MDA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: updated his email address and can look but not post
Ook, Civ4 hates my Vista install. Even tried using a guide from that nerdy Civ site
MDA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-03-2010, 03:01:32   #50
Greg W
This title intentionally left blank
 
Greg W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Down Under
Weird. I installed it on my new windows 7 laptop and it works fine. Would have thought W7 would have been more touchy than Vista.
__________________
NIM
Greg W is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
civilization
Forum Jump

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 20:35:31.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Counterglow 2001-2012. All rights reserved.