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Old 09-11-2004, 05:39:22   #201
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Hey Chris. You haven't been feeling lonely, have you?
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Old 09-11-2004, 06:03:27   #202
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I've finally caught up ... for now.
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Old 09-11-2004, 06:07:07   #203
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Congrats! That's a lot of time wasted! Are you waiting on Halo2 like Asher was?
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Old 09-11-2004, 06:10:42   #204
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I don't own any gaming systems ...
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Old 09-11-2004, 06:13:07   #205
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Too bad. Maybe some day.
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Old 09-11-2004, 06:23:34   #206
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I move that Darkstar sucks!
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Old 09-11-2004, 06:36:09   #207
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That's not true! I do not suck.

Ok. I had a grilfriend once that would go absolutely happy crazy if her toes were sucked. So back then, I'd suck now and then.

And when I am drinking something from a fast food place through a straw. Then I suck.

And when I breathe in... I suck gently. But that cannot count, as everyone sucks when they breathe in.

And sometimes...

Ok. Never mind. Objection redrawn.

I second the motion. Darkstar sucks!
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:19:57   #208
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I think we move onto a vote at this point.
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:24:15   #209
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Not another vote!

Who is inspecting the ballot boxes to make sure their is no votes already in them?
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:27:05   #210
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Hmmm, there seem to be a lot of 'Darkstar sucks' votes already cast in the few I examined.

Oh well, I guess we don't need the formality. Motion carried. *bang*

Darkstar sucks!
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:32:45   #211
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Wait. It appears that exit polls were mistaken. I feel so manipulated.
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Old 09-11-2004, 07:38:08   #212
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I don't know... 99 to 1 for "pro-Sucking". I think that's pretty accurate exit polling.
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Old 09-11-2004, 08:29:52   #213
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Gawd, two months of pent up Darkstar bullshit. Someone flush this forum.

Welcome back, btw - I missed you.
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Old 09-11-2004, 09:34:07   #214
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Did anyone read even one of Darkstar's posts on the previous page? I saw how many there were and immediately gave up.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:09:39   #215
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Dyl! Why, thank you!

That wasn't pent up. I didn't stop POSTING while I was gone. I just wasn't posting HERE. After all, I *like* this place.

Funko, most of it was supportitive of Chris, and calling out HK's bullshit. So skipping it wouldn't be a big deal... Nothing universe saving or damning in it. (You know, regular DS BS.)
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:12:17   #216
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Looking over it... a lot of American "near-centrist" thoughts from what I can tell... so that's probably pretty far right outside of America. Of course, I'm probably more self deluded about that then normal... we tend to view ourselves as the average yardstick that everything else is measured against...
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:15:23   #217
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Well, let me just say that the Iraq war was and is both criminal and idiotic. I won't comment on DS' sucking.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:22:48   #218
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Criminal... by what standing today? UN approved, US approved. The Vatican disapproved. Are you going by Vatican guidance?

Idiotic... that is certainly a valid point of view. Most wars are idiotic, in the long term. After all, if the people would just suffer a bit more, a few more generations, technology, teachings, religions, something would have changed and then the situation would have changed so you didn't need war.

Hell, we could have let Hitler take all of Europe and saved a whole lot more lives in the long wrong. All England had to do was sign off and mean it. While England is unthreatened, the US stays out. So what if the mainland of the Old World all speak German, yah? Would have unified Europe earlier.

It really is just a matter of tolerance and patience for most wars, historically speaking.

Lot of valid ways to appraise the worth of a war. And in most of them, war comes out as idiocy.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:23:29   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
Looking over it... a lot of American "near-centrist" thoughts from what I can tell... so that's probably pretty far right outside of America. Of course, I'm probably more self deluded about that then normal... we tend to view ourselves as the average yardstick that everything else is measured against...
Yeah, that's a fair assessment. Even the Democrats are pretty right wing in European terms. I certainly wouldn't vote for them.

Kitty's views are pretty consistent with the mainstream European view. From the reactions I was seeing after the election even a relatively large proportion of our right wing party voters feel uncomfortable about Bush. Allthough not all of them by any means.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:27:30   #220
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The Demonsuckers really aren't very different from the Repukingtons here. They both answer to the same corporate lobby groups (most of the time). Generally, whichever party is out of favor just fills the role of "oppositition" to the other party. When the Demons were the dominate party doing Tax and Spend, Repukes were the "smaller government" party. Now they've flipped around, so have their stances.

I really would like for us to have several more valid parties around here. Would at least make our elections more entertaining, wouldn't it?
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:28:47   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
Criminal... by what standing today? UN approved, US approved. The Vatican disapproved. Are you going by Vatican guidance?
Article 2(4) of the United Nations Charter,

"All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter1.htm
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:33:06   #222
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"Criminal... by what standing today?"

By the Nuremberg standards.

And what UN approval?

"Hell, we could have let Hitler take all of Europe and saved a whole lot more lives in the long wrong."

You were on track to do that until Pearl Harbour and Germany's declaration of war, remember? And the Iraq-Germany comparison is farts to space stations.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:39:06   #223
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But there was all the prior sanctions and grants made, Funko. It wasn't like the Coalition went into Sudan... there was outstanding resolutions which had granted that authority. And none made to revoke that. They should have put an expiration date on those resolutions.

That's the problem with telling someone it's okay to go beat up someone else. You cannot revoke that and make it stick until they finally do.

You aren't breaking the law when you've been granted a license to do so. The fact that is glossed over just shows that people want to believe it is illegal when the internation community outsmarted itself in making it legal and not puting that expiration date or terms on it.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:44:07   #224
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Let's not repeat the debate about the UN mandate. The 1990/91 resolutions in no way cover Bush's grab war. And I'll not get into the legal nature of "licenses"....
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:44:32   #225
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Iraq to Germany comparisons are a lot closer then space stations to farts. The main difference is that we haven't spent years beating down the Iraqi resistance capability through war, and thereby had the region already be drained of the fire brands, zealots, and impassioned when the occupation and rebuilding has begun.

Sorry, UN okayed the war. Now, if you want to say the UN cannot grant that, fine. We can still play lawyer and invoke "Defense of self or allies". Isreal is an ally of the US, and Saddam admits he was funding Hamas to fight it. Destabilizing a country is counted as an act of war (although most serious powers of the world have done it often enough).

You are a lawyer. You know that there is no way you can legally win the distinction. There is too much room to allow for a nation to defend itself legally or defend its business partners/dependants, Dyl.

This is a total rehash of the "Iraqi Invasion: Legal or Not" threads that are on this site already. Ah... I see you remember losing that debate. Good. Fine by me to drop it. And you know it's only a grab war if we keep it as our territory. Honestly, considering the American election, you'd find more traction with me arguing it was a "Wag the Dog" deal...
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:47:25   #226
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Quote:
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You aren't breaking the law when you've been granted a license to do so. The fact that is glossed over just shows that people want to believe it is illegal when the internation community outsmarted itself in making it legal and not puting that expiration date or terms on it.
Have you ever read resolution 687?

Tell me where it says that you are allowed to invade Iraq with the intention of regime change

http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm

In fact it explicitly says the opposite:

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Welcoming the restoration to Kuwait of its sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity and the return of its legitimate Government,

Affirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Kuwait and Iraq, and noting the intention expressed by the Member States cooperating with Kuwait under paragraph 2 of resolution 678 (1990) to bring their military presence in Iraq to an end as soon as possible consistent with paragraph 8 of resolution 686 (1991)
I don't see any way that resolution could feasibly be used to justify a war to remove Saddam from power. However bad a leader he was, that resolution just doesn't grant those powers.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:54:57   #227
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Dyl... Honestly... Some comments that have surfaced repeatily makes it clear to me it's not a proper land grab, or American Capital Imperialism, nor even revenge. The phrase "opening a second front on the war of terror" is found repeatily in the Repukingtons material, before, during, and after the various presentations on Iraq. Why? The Repukes have even answered that question a few times. And the Demons agreed with them. So guilt all around... sucks for Saddam, but he was our bully boy, so us trying to fix that seems okay to me. Not sure if it is a real positive thing for the Iraqi getting the power change out now or waiting until he'd fall over dead from assassination if we hadn't toppled him though... Is it better to delay a painful and traumatic process or get it out of the way so you can start building for a real future? Tough call for most people in their own lives... and we didn't let the Iraqi choose for themselves.
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:01:36   #228
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Funks, its been a while since I looked at all the material. However, there were a bunch of riders. And I don't recall the full terms for the "removal of forces" being met.

Frankly, the Administration would do what it wants regardless. And the American public wouldn't care... because we already view the world as being hateful, ignorant, and jealous of us. We have a bit of the "bell of the ball" complex. But that's just our reaction to all the Anti-Americanism we get exposed to every day. "Fuck you if you don't like us, and we won't care what you think then" sort of deal.
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:08:32   #229
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"because we already view the world as being hateful, ignorant, and jealous of us"

Now that's irony.
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:21:46   #230
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Yeah, isn't it?
Check out what even the most enlightened Leftist American leadership says about you. It's much worse. They just happen to think that Americans, as a rule, aren't as stuck up, but are more ignorant (only finishing school though the age of ten to twelve, instead of dropping out at 14 like those Parisans or Londoners).

We don't really think much of Europe. It's much, much, much less then we think of the UK. The UK varies between being smarter and better refined then us to just one small step about those nasty, jealous, wimpy, spiteful Euroes who cannot do anything without a good native English Speaking Whitie coalition to actually do it for them.

I'd say we've gone backwards in our views, but I dont think that they really evolved since the late 18th century. And the internet (sites, interactions, etc) and the media we get from Euro reinforces that view for many.
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:39:22   #231
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Dropping out of school at 14? WTF?
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:41:52   #232
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It didn't alter my perception of Americans or Usa. Basically because it is clear that neither Kerry or Bush would have made any difference vis a vis what happens in this neighborhood of nations. For Americans proper there are two divisions. You can view them as "the USA" in which case it is negative, or view them as people where it depends on each person. But from my experience and generalizing wildly they're polite and fun loving something with which I agree. There are exceptions where one or two can ask a really silly question but basically that's a combination of inner stupidity and lack of knowledge something quite widespread all over the world. But, the onces I've met were really polite and careful but also knew how to party so I'm left with good impressions. Politics stay outside, is there any reason to drag them in? We never did. All that is before 11/9 though, so I don't know wether 11/9 changed the american psyche and how but I surely believe that electing Bush or Kerry (Pepsi or Coke) doesn't change anyone's perceptions.
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:44:48   #233
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DS:

Look at the wording of the 1990/91 resultions. The legal nature of chapter VII resolutions. And concepts like rebus sic stantibus and desuetudo in international law. I'm not telling you how to do your NASA work, you don't tell me about international law.

And for anti-americanism - much of it is a reaction to american anti-restofworldism.
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:46:55   #234
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Old 09-11-2004, 11:47:50   #235
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Quote:
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. But from my experience and generalizing wildly they're polite and fun loving something with which I agree. There are exceptions where one or two can ask a really silly question but basically that's a combination of inner stupidity and lack of knowledge something quite widespread all over the world. But, the onces I've met were really polite and careful but also knew how to party so I'm left with good impressions.
True! and down with politics spoiling all the partying.
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Old 09-11-2004, 16:43:45   #236
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darkstar
Qaj, the trick is that extremists don't tend to notice the subtle distinctions. Like, for instance, being an innocent child just going to school. They do these splashy things to get on the news so people understand that they aren't safe, no matter what, until the terrorist get whatever it is they want. Otherwise, terrorism doesn't work. It's just psychos hurting and killing without any moral justification then. And they don't want to be seen as psychos, they want to be seen as heroes of their people!

Well, obviously.


Quote:
It has been noted that terror bombings by Hamas have dropped against the Israeli since Saddam has stopped paying them. I wonder if the Israeli feel that Saddam paying Hamas was a big deal?
Don't confuse correlation with causation, Darkstar. If you can conclusively prove that that is the case, fine, let's see your evidence. But there are many other factors that can explain the reduction in bombings: the anti-terror wall; the peace talks and Sharon claiming to pull settlements from disputed zones; even possibly Arafat's illness (if it's been prolonged); and probably a bunch of other stuff we don't even know about.


Quote:
Humm... So, your position is to allow the evil you know is hurting and killing people and let time sort it out?
Nope. As in my original long-ass post, I think Bush should have either played the U.N. game better, or pulled out completely. What he did was go against the U.N., and acted before a proper war resolution was in place.


Quote:
What if it wasn't countries... what if it was people? If Saddam was your neighbor, beating his wife, kids and elderly mom, selling questionable goods, and paying the local gang to make sure that no one else competed with him? Do you do nothing, cause eventually he's going to die? After all, no domestic abuse is ever a global consequence. And that is exactly what you are arguing...
Well, I could go over and blow Saddam the Neighbor away with my trusty 12-gauge, but then I figure the cops would probably arrest me. But your analogy is flawed. Instead, let's say a vigilante group, comprising a bigger group than the city PD, went in and took him out instead, and the PD couldn't touch the vigilantes without a hell of a lot of fallout because they're too big and control much of the economics of the city. That's a bit more like it.

What I'm trying to argue, without you twisting it to mean something different, is that a legitimate force should have taken care of the matter. And, in a perfect world, it would have happened a decade ago, when Saddam started flouting the original set of sanctions. Or even better, the U.S. would never have armed and coluded with Iraq and Saddam in the first place...


Quote:
As for no plan for piece... you are again claiming it doesn't matter cause it wasn't you. How is what is going in Iraq now affecting you? Other then all the whining and moaning you hear about it? What with you being in California.
Yeah, I do hear a lot of whining and moaning about it in California, esp. since I listen to a Santa Cruz public radio station (For those of you reading this that aren't from here, Santa Cruz is noted as being a bunch of extremely liberal tree-huggers. Some of it's residents make Kerry look conservative).


Quote:
The difference between post-WW2 and now is more of presentation. Back in 47 ot 48, the news wouldn't run such things in such large focus. Just a nasty comment or two in an otherwise "everything is sugary now that peace has been won" report. Of course, if they had 500 channels of medium to fill 24/7, it would have been a different story.
Agreed. Though the media is still at fault for not reporting things accurately or "fair and balanced". They tend to blow some things way out of proportion, and minimize others (this they do with both positive and negative aspects of the coverage of Iraq, though mostly the negative). If the news was less sensationalist, maybe it'd be better quality.
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Old 09-11-2004, 17:32:05   #237
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the comparisons between germany and irak are misguided, for many reasons, but I'll give only one : the arab world today is unable to modernize and democratize because it feels these values are purely western, and imposed on them.

Neither Germany nor Japan had a problem with modernism.


Our real problem is our inability to market convincingly our western values. Certainly the US shock and awe method isn't convincingly winning hearts, which is, in the end (and bar an extermination war), all that matters.
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Old 09-11-2004, 18:56:22   #238
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Damn. It's good to see Darkstar back. He must have gotten bionic finger replacement and a new keyboard.
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Old 09-11-2004, 19:21:14   #239
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Why? Where has his finger been?
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Old 09-11-2004, 19:26:44   #240
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Hey Chris. You haven't been feeling lonely, have you?
Naw, the better half says alot of the same stuff as you see here, and I pay it as little mind.
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Old 09-11-2004, 19:37:28   #241
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Why? Where has his finger been?
Saying that with an Elton John tar is just so wrong.
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Old 09-11-2004, 20:08:13   #242
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Old 09-11-2004, 21:24:32   #243
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Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Look at the wording of the 1990/91 resultions. The legal nature of chapter VII resolutions. And concepts like rebus sic stantibus and desuetudo in international law. I'm not telling you how to do your NASA work, you don't tell me about international law.

And for anti-americanism - much of it is a reaction to american anti-restofworldism.
You are welcome to tell me how to do my NASA work. After all, NASA wants all to be aware and active in its interests.

Well, in the realm of international politics, if the EU isn't going to bother fighting the Coalition on it, nor invoke sanctions against it, then the EU is giving its tactic blessings to it.

I may hunt up all the resolutions and check them out. Not today though. It's become a moot point until the Iraqi people file a class action lawsuit against the governments of the Coalition.

As for Anti-Americanism... it isn't a reaction to American Anti anything. It's basic nature. When Spain ruled the Known World, everyone was Anti-Spain. When France ruled the Known World, everyone was Anti-France. When the UK ruled the Known World, everyone was Anti-UK. When China rules the Known Universe, we will all be anti-China. You can say "We hate your country/administration for this reason..." but in the History of World, America has been one seriously underachieving Nasty Overlord. It's just human nature. People don't like to see others do well. People perfer to see them fail. That's part of the basic wiring of our brains. Someone doing better then you triggers your Zero Sum reasoning... less is left for you. Basic psych has studied the hell out of this. That Zero Sum reaction doesn't trigger as easily for people you don't see competing directly against you (your community), so it takes outsiders having much more then you (compared to others in your community) to trigger that Zero Sum behavior.

As long as the world hates America, that just means it sees America as Top Dog. When it starts hating someone else equally, then the Sun will be setting on America. I'm hearing a good bit of anti-China and anti-India sentiment at this time. Well up above the anti-Jap and anti-German and anti-Arabia these days.

When America does nothing, its hated for doing nothing. When America goes in to help, its hated for not helping enough and not helping sooner. When America interferes in other countries, America is hated for it. When America doesn't interfere in other countries, America is hated for it. If America chooses to support a side, it is hated. If it doesn't, it is hated. That isn't reasonable behavior. So there isn't any valid arguments to how America makes itself hated... America is hated because it exists. If it didn't exists, everyone would just hate something else. Such is the true nature of humans since before we were humans. Whatever you view as having some say over you and your life (and you are powerless to effect it) is going to attract your fear and hatred.
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Old 09-11-2004, 21:27:24   #244
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Damn. It's good to see Darkstar back. He must have gotten bionic finger replacement and a new keyboard.
What? Oh fuck! I've been bumped up on Venom's hit list! I'd escaped his spying, but now I'm back up in the top 10,000,000! Fuck!

I think I should go hide now!
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Old 09-11-2004, 21:33:01   #245
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As fro Anti-Americanism... it isn't a reaction to American Anti anything. It's basic nature. When Spain (was percieved to) ruled the Known World, everyone was Anti-Spain. When France (was percieved to) ruled the Known World, everyone was Anti-France. When UK (was percieved to) ruled the Known World, everyone was Anti-UK. When China is percieved to rule the Known World, we will all be anti-China. You can say "We hate your country/administration for this reason..." but in the History of World, America has been one seriously underachieving Nasty Overlord. It's just human nature. People don't like to see others do well. People perfer to see them fail. That's part of the basic wiring of our brains. Someone doing better then you triggers your Zero Sum reasoning... less is left for you. Basic psych has studied the hell out of this. That Zero Sum reaction doesn't trigger as easily for people you don't see competing directly against you (your community), so it takes outsiders having much more then you to trigger that Zero Sum behavior.

As long as the world hates America, that just means it sees America as Top Dog. When it starts hating someone else equally, then the Sun will be setting on America. I'm hearing a good bit of anti-China and anti-India sentiment at this time. Well up above the anti-Jap and anti-German and anti-Arabia these days.

When America does nothing, its hated for doing nothing. When America goes in to help, its hated for not helping enough and not helping sooner. When America interferes in other countries, America is hated for if. When America doesn't interfere in other countries, America is hated for it. If America chooses to support a side, it is hated. If it doesn't, it is hated. That isn't reasonable behavior. So there isn't any valid arguments to how America makes itself hated... America is hated because it exists. if it didn't exists, everyone would just hate something else. Such is the true nature of humans since before we were humans.
Summary: Ppl don't hate America, really, they just whoever is the strongest world power at any given time...*


*My summary could be wrong as I didn't bother to read the whole thing


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Old 09-11-2004, 21:34:46   #246
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Naw, the better half says alot of the same stuff as you see here, and I pay it as little mind.
But presumbably, your better half makes up for it to you by doing nice things for you or with you occasionally. I don't think the forum can be said to do the same.
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Old 09-11-2004, 21:37:21   #247
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But presumbably, your better half makes up for it to you by doing nice things for you or with you occasionally. I don't think the forum can be said to do the same.
I usually don't bother with it, but you get tired off all the bomb-throwing, it gets rediculous.

If you listen to Kitty, the Dems are all sweetness and nice, and the GoP are secretly the Nazis reborn, and people here agree with it.
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Old 09-11-2004, 21:45:50   #248
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That's rediculous! Nazi's reborn!? How could we ever aspire to be as great and as disciplined as those saints?!
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Old 09-11-2004, 21:46:48   #249
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Summary: Ppl don't hate America, really, they just whoever is the strongest world power at any given time...*

*My summary could be wrong as I didn't bother to read the whole thing

Yeppers.

I'm not saying that the various American Administration's haven't done nasty or stupid or total fuckwitted things to anyone. There are many legitimate claims as the American Administration has done things to give cause to various people to hate "America". But even where America hasn't, its still hated. And we've frankly been too stuck up to really fuck over the majority of the world as our Dominant Power predecessors did. We certainly could have... but in comparison, we've paddled a few kids in the class with the yardstick, wheren prior to us being one of the big babysitters, the kids got put on the wheel and the wrack.

If China is a meaner master to the world, people will look back and remember the Golden Age when America ruled the world. That's always how Golden Ages are determined... things weren't as bad "back then" but there was no context to put it against.

Of course, if China is a better master, then the older people will *really* bitch about how bad it was before China. "If only they'd allow other countries to have a space program so you didn't have to travel to China to go to reach the Mighty Jade Dragon in orbit, things would be perfect now" they will say.
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Old 09-11-2004, 21:52:34   #250
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So I guess you can understand why Bush is president,.. yet again
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