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Old 26-05-2004, 10:15:35   #1
Qweeg
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Art

Quote:
The artist, i.e., the painter of pictures, does not necessarily
have anything more to say to the world of intellectual interest
or social importance than the plumber, the accountant, or the cab
driver, although he spends his time doing something which our
culture has assigned a high status to.
We are all taught early on and well that to be regarded as
sophisticated, cultured, worldly, refined, educated, etc., one
must learn to highly esteem pictures hanging in an art gallery or
art museum, or at least learn how to pretend to esteem such
things highly, dropping seemingly appropriate comments about color,
form, art history, or "meaning".

"A painting in a museum hears more ridiculous opinions than
anything else in the world." Edmond de Goncourt (1822-1896)

"Abstract art? A product of the untalented, sold by the
unprincipled to the utterly bewildered." Al Capp

... but the painting gave off the sanctified odor of serious art,
so he hesitated to be candid ...

The art-collecting spirit can be a variety of greed.

Art, like history, belongs to the winners.

Painting vases and flowers and other "still life" is comparable
to writing a poem beginning "Roses are red, violets are blue".

Any institutionalized maniac is able to create chaos out of
order, but is that art?

Critics of certain "obscene" art have objected to the NEA giving
grants to the artists on the grounds that taxpayers who object to
such work should not have their tax dollars supporting work they
find obscene. "This is a novel theory," author Lawrence
Weschler has observed. "I notice, for example, that such logic
was never applied to funding for the Stealth bomber or aid to the
regimes of El Salvador and Guatemala."

Art and radicalism don't mix well because radical art would have
to be art that convinces people that you can't change society
through art.

John Cage theorized that music does not have to have sound but
can be anything that fills a space in time. He scored a piece
that included the noise from 12 radios, and wrote scores that
left choices of sounds to the performers. In "O'O" - he sliced
vegetables, put them in a blender and drank the juice. In
"4'33" - he presented four minutes and 33 seconds of silence in
which a pianist simply steps onstage, sits at a piano in silence
and then walks off.
In an interview, Cage said he had once listened to several
mundane sounds and tried to figure out why he didn't like them.
He was forced to conclude that there was no reason why he didn't
like them.
What, I wonder, if he ate some excrement and didn't like it.
Would he conclude that there was no reason why?
Consider a patient in a mental hospital being examined by
the psychiatrist to determine if he's well enough to be released.
The patient says he's composed something. The psychiatrist is
very interested and says he'd like to hear it. The patient sits
down at a piano and sits there in silence for 4 minutes and 33
seconds. Would he be released?
"I have nothing to say and I am saying it." John Cage,
response to questions about his music and his musical philosophy.

Coming soon: minimal film -- two hours of a completely white
screen, with a long list of credits at the end.
thoughts?
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:16:12   #2
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:20:31   #3
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"We are all taught early on and well that to be regarded as
sophisticated, cultured, worldly, refined, educated, etc., one
must learn to highly esteem pictures hanging in an art gallery or
art museum"

No, you have to call it crap and give an arrogant explanation that no one understands. Only then are you truly regarded as
sophisticated, cultured, worldly, refined, educated. Or as an artist.
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:21:43   #4
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Isn't that what critics do? Call things crap I mean...
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:22:54   #5
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Shame about the Saatchi gallery going up in smoke... a real loss to future generations.
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:35:46   #6
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It misses entirely how and why you need to be critical of the art establishment and art critics. In fact, this sort of badly written nonsense does nothing but politically strengthen the deeply conservative art-world, who're able to say "look, here's sone buffoon with no theoretical backing who's trying to do us down! Ha ha!"

The challenge needs to understand the reason why they do what they do, or at least make an attempt to explain it. I think the art-world is blatantly counterradical and is one of the chief preservers of right-wing ideology in society today, and you can't (as this man does) attempt to attack it from the right and expect to be taken seriously.
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:49:00   #7
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You think the guy's criticing from the right? Struck me as kind of... red.
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:55:27   #8
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Old 26-05-2004, 10:55:37   #9
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there are several possbly conflicting arguments in qweeg's quote, so it's hard to answer all of the points, but on visual art at least:

the visual art world is no different from any of the other arts of cinema or music or whatever, except that as a rule fewer people have an interest in or knowledge of it.

everyone has an opinion about whether a film or a piece of music is good or not and what it means and visual art should be no different

an abstract work might be less immediately accessible than a catchy tune or a thriller, but to argue that because something requires greater effort on the part of the viewer means it is actually more intellectually devoid would be perverse

i actually have sympathy with the view that there is something of an unreasoning assumption that great art is great art and everyone should bow down to it - i for one find the deification of the likes of the mona lisa horribly vulgar. People who think great art means famous pictures are no more intellectual than those who think movies with big stars are great movies.
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Old 26-05-2004, 11:59:35   #10
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I agree with scabrous, typical right wing rant, on the lines of 'they think they are better than us, these sophisticated urban cosmopolitan faggots, but I prefer a plummer to an artist' which leads directly to 'degenerate art' or 'the earth, at least, never lies' (Petain)

first rule of tolerance : it's not because you don't understand something that it's devoid of value

and a story : a man walked to Picasso and told him 'you're a fake, my 7 year old kid draws better than you' to which Picasso replied 'when I was 7, I was drawing like Michel-Angelo'
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Old 26-05-2004, 12:27:21   #11
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I heard that ages ago, except in the version I heard Picasso was 8.
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Old 26-05-2004, 12:33:15   #12
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that changes everything!
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after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
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Old 26-05-2004, 12:40:29   #13
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After reading about the destruction of works by Tracy Amin and Damien Hurst and other 'great modern artists of our time... that being modern' and wondering why it was considered such a terrible loss (more like doing future generations a favor) I agree with some of the points made. It's not interesting where I found the quote.
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Old 26-05-2004, 12:40:35   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qweeg
I heard that ages ago, except in the version I heard Picasso was 8.
it's the third time I tell this story on CG,

but I'm not sure about the age, I might have changed it in my earlier quotes
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Old 26-05-2004, 12:47:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by maroule
I agree with scabrous, typical right wing rant, on the lines of 'they think they are better than us, these sophisticated urban cosmopolitan faggots, but I prefer a plummer to an artist' which leads directly to 'degenerate art' or 'the earth, at least, never lies' (Petain)

first rule of tolerance : it's not because you don't understand something that it's devoid of value

and a story : a man walked to Picasso and told him 'you're a fake, my 7 year old kid draws better than you' to which Picasso replied 'when I was 7, I was drawing like Michel-Angelo'
Half an hour later, on the bus home... the guy replays the exchange again, but different:

A man walks up to Picasso and says to him 'you're a fake, my 7 year old kid draws better than you' to which Picasso replied 'when I was 8, I was drawing like Michel-Angelo'
'Oh yeah' replies the man 'well my kid draws like Rodin!'
'Oh' says Picasso, whose shoulders slump dejectedly, realising that he is- indeed, rubbish at drawing.
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Old 26-05-2004, 12:47:11   #16
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I'm sure Funko mourns the loss of his icon.

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Old 26-05-2004, 12:50:21   #17
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Well any radical artist is happy Saatchi burned down. Britart is a right-wing art movement.
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Old 26-05-2004, 12:51:24   #18
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Dunno about the sheep but I thought the cut in half cow was great.
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Old 26-05-2004, 13:07:03   #19
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'don't worry' says the man, kindly, 'my 3 year old draws a good Picasso'.
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Old 26-05-2004, 13:33:06   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qweeg
Half an hour later, on the bus home... the guy replays the exchange again, but different:

A man walks up to Picasso and says to him 'you're a fake, my 7 year old kid draws better than you' to which Picasso replied 'when I was 8, I was drawing like Michel-Angelo'
'Oh yeah' replies the man 'well my kid draws like Rodin!'
'Oh' says Picasso, whose shoulders slump dejectedly, realising that he is- indeed, rubbish at drawing.


(both at the joke and at picking a sculptor as the best graphic artist you could think of)
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Old 26-05-2004, 13:54:57   #21
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The sculpture is Exactly my Point!
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Old 26-05-2004, 13:57:04   #22
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Have you heard of the sistine chapel ceiling?
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Old 26-05-2004, 14:07:19   #23
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that job by that painter bloke named after that ninja turtle... what about it?
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Old 26-05-2004, 14:09:38   #24
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The one about the Sistine chapel? No. How does it go?
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Old 26-05-2004, 16:11:39   #25
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here's a great joke: a guy stats a thread about art but doesn't have anything interesting to say about it himself

boom boom
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after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
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Old 26-05-2004, 16:13:29   #26
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Old 26-05-2004, 16:19:34   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
here's a great joke: a guy stats a thread about art but doesn't have anything interesting to say about it himself

boom boom
Why the fuck do you think I started a thread about art in the first place, if not to collect interesting things to say about it?
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Old 26-05-2004, 17:28:38   #28
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hmm...you have a dinner party coming up?
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Old 26-05-2004, 17:30:39   #29
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No, I just felt I needed more sophisticated reasons to justify my contempt for most modern art.
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Old 26-05-2004, 17:33:17   #30
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well i would like to think you recognise that a phrase like 'most modern art' is likely to arouse contempt itself

isn't it enough to like some things and not like others, why do you need an 'attitude' to modern art unless you're a pretentiouss dinner party type?
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Old 26-05-2004, 17:44:47   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qweeg
No, I just felt I needed more sophisticated reasons to justify my contempt for most modern art.
This should help. http://www.billemory.com/NOTES/wolfe.html
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Old 26-05-2004, 17:45:09   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by King_Ghidra@home
well i would like to think you recognise that a phrase like 'most modern art' is likely to arouse contempt itself

isn't it enough to like some things and not like others, why do you need an 'attitude' to modern art unless you're a pretentiouss dinner party type?
BecauseIhateitBecauseIhateitBecauseIhateit!!!!!!

>ahem<

Well, when I say most modern art, I do of course mean absolutely all modern art with no exception whatsoever. I'd just like to know why. I figured if I got people to say stuff about art, and how it sucks, I could pick and choose clever new reasons for my emotional response to it (the modern stuff anyway... and lots of the not so modern stuff... in fact any of it that doesn't look like a person, or bowl of fruit or a pretty landscape or something).

I don't consider myself ignorant.
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Old 26-05-2004, 17:57:17   #33
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Boy how wrong Wolfe was, both about the new realists and the direction art would take...
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Old 26-05-2004, 18:02:00   #34
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The book is hilarious though.
j
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Old 26-05-2004, 18:03:54   #35
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"other Canadas of the soul" ! That man says crazy stuff

some of which I also agree with
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Old 26-05-2004, 18:31:10   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
It misses entirely how and why you need to be critical of the art establishment and art critics. In fact, this sort of badly written nonsense does nothing but politically strengthen the deeply conservative art-world, who're able to say "look, here's sone buffoon with no theoretical backing who's trying to do us down! Ha ha!"

The challenge needs to understand the reason why they do what they do, or at least make an attempt to explain it. I think the art-world is blatantly counterradical and is one of the chief preservers of right-wing ideology in society today, and you can't (as this man does) attempt to attack it from the right and expect to be taken seriously.
attack it from the right?

This isn't a left-right issue.

It's a "what's crap and what's not" issue.
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Old 26-05-2004, 18:35:27   #37
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Well—how very shortsighted! Now, at last, on April 28, 1974, I could see. I had gotten it backward all along. Not “seeing is believing,” you ninny, but “believing is seeing,” for Modern Art has become completely literary: the paintings and other works exist only to illustrate the text.
That's what I feel. If you need to explain your art to somebody then it ceases to be art and starts to be sociology.
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Old 26-05-2004, 18:56:44   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
attack it from the right?
The chosen line of attack is straight out of the Nazi textbook on degenerate art. Modern artists are a meaningless elite compared to the plumbers/volk, let us inter them in camps.

Whereas what I would say is that the modern art world is a strongly institutionalised hegemony which maintains its power through essentially being deeply conservative.

Definately left-right.

You have a problem with the literariness of the modern art world, and so do I, but I try to think of why it is so.
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Old 26-05-2004, 18:57:25   #39
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All issues where power is involved are left-right issues. The cultural elite definately weilds power.
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Old 26-05-2004, 19:06:43   #40
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?

It's a populist/elites issue.

Both of those types exist on both sides of what I would consider the left/right divide.

The Canadian Coalition of Farmers, the forerunners to today's social democratic New Democrats were populists.

So, to a large extent, were the Nazis.

So was the Reform party in both the US and Canada.

They exist over the entire political spectrum. The only thing they share is an appeal to common people in the cause of reform of a system they see as corrupt and malfunctioning. Sometimes these movements are wise. Sometimes they're foolish. Sometimes their leaders are great men, and sometimes they're unspeakably evil.
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Old 26-05-2004, 19:29:45   #41
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There is an elephant who can paint with his provoskida. He paints trees and such which are discernable (not surrealist).
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Old 26-05-2004, 19:37:38   #42
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provoskida
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Old 26-05-2004, 19:41:45   #43
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And surrealist is not the word you're looking for. You're thinking abstract.

Surrealism:



Abstract expressionism:



By Dali and Pollock respectively.
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Old 26-05-2004, 19:47:52   #44
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I couldn't write aphairetiki after provoskida it would be too much.
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Old 26-05-2004, 19:53:01   #45
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I have no fucking clue what you're on about.

I hear the Olympics are going to be a complete mess, my Ottoman friend.
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Old 26-05-2004, 22:38:35   #46
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I think the Greeks should just admit they won't get it all finished, and try to blag a "Return to the ancient Olympics"-theme Games. Saves money on equipment and stadia, wouldn't have to worry about the shit sports they added in later, wouldn't have to build houses for the female athletes, saves money on clothing... It would work a treat.
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Old 26-05-2004, 22:48:59   #47
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provoskida sounds like it is similar to proboscis...which is a nose. So therefore he means trunk.
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Old 26-05-2004, 22:51:29   #48
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These were painted by a friend of mine from school. I absolutely love them.






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Old 26-05-2004, 22:52:36   #49
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He's very good. I like the red city in the middle...
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Old 26-05-2004, 22:55:07   #50
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