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Old 23-03-2004, 19:08:47   #151
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Should it be illegal for men to buy Smirnoff Ice for girls in clubs and then go back to their place as well?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:11:17   #152
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'Cause as we all know girls only have sex to get men to buy them drinks.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:14:31   #153
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Do you think there is any moral difference (for the man) between buying a girl drinks and then having a one-night stand, and giving a girl money and doing the same thing?

You seem to think that a girl would never have a one-night stand for her own enjoyment, or have sex without commitment, so what's the difference?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:18:38   #154
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No, that's what you appear to think judging by the previous post. If you really can't see the difference between hate-filled submission to a person you despise and a bit of fun on the side you're really out of it.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:19:25   #155
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Of course dodgy dance clubs do exist, exploiting their employees into awful situations. But factories, which get round the minimum wage, still force their workers to sign contracts accepting personal responsibility when they lose a limb or two. Equally exploitative in my opinion. We don’t assume, however, that all factories do this.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:19:52   #156
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Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
It makes immoral things that are grossly harmful to others illegal while making not immoral things legal? It's the purpose of any change in law one would imagine.


here's some advice, Justice and The Law have very little to do with eachover. The main purpose of the law is to enforce property rights, and enshrine governments role in conflict resolution.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:20:48   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary
Gary, find a prostitute that doesn't hate her clients. "The Happy Whore" is and remains a myth.

Have you not seen the documentaries on the subject. There are happy hookers as well as those doing it just to get by. It is the minority that hate their clients. Oh sure none of us is guarantied job satisfaction, but we don't hate our customers.


tihnk you both could do with a healthy dose of Feminist literature.

I've read some feminist stuff. It tends to be clearly nonsense. Annoyingly so. Doesn't encourage one to read more.


Gary since he's obviously so far behind

Roughly translated to "Gary, since he's not been brainwashed into thinking green is blue" ?

cant get around the fact that prostitution is basically a one way street in which men are the entertained

One can say the same thing about singers or comedians or whatever. It's a service industry which in this case tends to appeal to male customers more than female. It's pointless trying to suggest there's something wrong in that.

None of you actually seem prepared to admit that there is something in the male psyche or the role of being male in a modern society that leads to this disproportionate imbalance of power and exploitation

Again what's with this power and exploitation kick ? It's a connection some of you want to exist, but it just doesn't. It's a simple agreement between individuals to buy and sell something that's in demand. If some don't like that, well one can't please everyone, but there's no need to decide it's something other than what it is.

Paying someone does not cleanse the act, or make it non-exploitative

Cleanse the act ? What's there to cleanse ? And who is exploiting whom here, if anyone ? Both parties get something out of the deal which is why it is entered into willingly. No one can change that because it doesn't fit in with their beliefs.

its a society tipped in the male's favour

Not the society I've grown up in. I used to get VERY pissed off with the advantages society gave girls and women. more leniency and understanding, less expectations, more prepared to take their side. For someone who is basically a shy person it seemed very unfair, but to a large extent I've chilled out now. But the idea that society is in favour of the male simply because the female representation is in the minority in higher positions of authority would be laughable if it wasn't so irritating. All it shows is that women are less pressurised in joining in the Rat Race, the very thing a lot of us would prefer to be out of anyway.

Using prostitutes ...

In the same way one "uses" the grocer when buying from their shop ?

What could be more disenfranchising than having your body sold over and over again

They're not having their body sold, they are renting their body out of choice.

And what's all this about "disenfranchising" anyway ? Who's being deprived of anything ? Surely this is a red herring to throw all off the main discussion here ?


a trophy for people

I do not wish to be rude, but reality seems to have been totally lost at this point. Trophy ? What trophy ? Some folk had sex, that's it.

I don't believe it is useful to continue pulling out further bits of this particular post since it's so far off reality one wouldn't know where to start. But, unfortunately, I guess that's often the case when feminism is being discussed. Which is why it tends to be a waste of time reading about it.

You really are thick. If the depth of your thought extends only to acts and not to motivations or social/psychological influences, patterns of behaviour and blindingly obvious imbalances I cannot be bothered to engage in a conversation with you.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:21:56   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
No, that's what you appear to think judging by the previous post. If you really can't see the difference between hate-filled submission to a person you despise and a bit of fun on the side you're really out of it.
I think the only person demonstratably "out of it" is the one making ridiculous character judgements to suit their argument despite a remarkable lack of any proof whatsoever.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:22:42   #159
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
No, that's what you appear to think judging by the previous post. If you really can't see the difference between hate-filled submission to a person you despise and a bit of fun on the side you're really out of it.
Why do you assume all 'jons' are hate filled? Have you ever actuially.. ah, shall we say interviewed a prostitute? I think you're assuming stuff coz it fits with your bad-guy good-girl view of the world.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:23:42   #160
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If she wants to be a whore then i say we let her.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:23:59   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qweeg
Why do you assume all 'jons' are hate filled? Have you ever actuially.. ah, shall we say interviewed a prostitute? I think you're assuming stuff coz it fits with your bad-guy good-girl view of the world.
Of course he hasn't. He's making it up to suit his argument, as I've said several times in this thread already.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:25:14   #162
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And what "ridiculous character judgement" would that be? That prostitutes hate and are treated like scum by their "clients"? Find me an example where that's not the case (and not Pretty Woman) and we can begin to discuss the psychology of the thing.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:26:23   #163
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I read, you know. Since it's an area that actively interests me I read articles and books and crap about it. It's not that strange.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:26:38   #164
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Did you read the article I posted?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:26:47   #165
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Let's go by price range, an 'Escort' who charges 50 squid an hour probably isn't treated like scum.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:28:20   #166
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I'm sure all the latvian and polish girls on the streets of Stockholm (brough here under false pretenses by their violent pimps) really love their jobs.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:29:45   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
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Of course some prostitutes are treated appallingly. Some people in all industries are treated appallingly. What grounds do you have to say that all prostitutes are treated badly?

Moreover, what grounds do you have to say that all men use prostitutes to exercise power? What makes using a prostitute "abuse" but spending a small fortune on a girl in a club and then taking her home "a bit of fun on the side"?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:30:36   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Did you read the article I posted?
The "They think we're prostitutes but we're not" article?

Made, I might add, in the club under the boss's watchful eye?

That pretty much proves my point about many (most?) clients of the sex "industry" being well-heeled businessmen?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:31:24   #169
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Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I'm sure all the latvian and polish girls on the streets of Stockholm (brough here under false pretenses by their violent pimps) really love their jobs.
That's wrong, but the issue is exploitation and slavery. Prostitution is merely the method through which they are exploited. What's the difference between that and forcing males into slave-labour elsewhere?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:32:31   #170
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This is starting to get really sad.

It should be illegal for one contracting party but not the other? How stupid is that? They're both of age; if they choose to enter into an illegal contract then they're both at fault.

Just because this is starting to piss me off, I'm going to go hire a prostitute and instead of enjoying the sex I'm going to get on a huge power trip about fucking some dirty, disease-ridden drug addict...
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:34:13   #171
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You mentioned Polish and Latvian girls in Stokholm, what about Polish and Latvian men in Europes construction industry? Long hours, no hard-hat, no health insurance... but of course being men and therefore part of the Grand Patriarchy Society, those hardships mean nothing. Okay, so what about children toiling away in the sweat-factories of the 3rd Worlds "New Democracies"...

etc


etc


etc
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:34:59   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
The "They think we're prostitutes but we're not" article?

Made, I might add, in the club under the boss's watchful eye?
For a feminist you are appalling patronising about women...

Do you not think they are intelligent enough to make their own choices?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:35:31   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qweeg
You mentioned Polish and Latvian girls in Stokholm, what about Polish and Latvian men in Europes construction industry? Long hours, no hard-hat, no health insurance... but of course being men and therefore part of the Grand Patriarchy Society, those hardships mean nothing. Okay, so what about children toiling away in the sweat-factories of the 3rd Worlds "New Democracies"...

etc


etc


etc
Hear, hear, hear!
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:35:40   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
What makes using a prostitute "abuse" but spending a small fortune on a girl in a club and then taking her home "a bit of fun on the side"?
The mutual enjoyment of the two parties? The internal power dynamics of the tryst? The respect given to the girl in the club not given to the prostitute? The equality? Loads of stuff. Don't you think there's a difference?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:35:48   #175
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xpost.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:37:28   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
The mutual enjoyment of the two parties? The internal power dynamics of the tryst? The respect given to the girl in the club not given to the prostitute? The equality? Loads of stuff. Don't you think there's a difference?
Mutual respect? Have you been to Toffs on a Friday?

You're just a hypocrite if you think one is any worse than the other from the man's perspective.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:39:50   #177
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At ‘The Purple Door’ the dancers were just dancers, the clients just everymen on nights out. Sleazy? Not compared to the tides of peroxide blondes with which ‘Toffs’ is awash at the weekend, girls who can’t dance but will let you take them home for the price of a Smirnoff ice. And I can’t help feeling that the men who pay to watch professional entertainers in a salubrious environment are demonstrating far less prurience than those leering over the balconies at ‘The Gallery’ for four hours every Friday.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:41:38   #178
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I've heard prostitutes saying (on crappy talk shows admittedly) that many of their 'regulars' really like to talk, a few only talk! Don't get me wrong, I myself percieve prostitution as a bad thing, dangerous and demeaning to the woman, and demeaning for the man... but it's by no means as clear cut as you think Scab, from the mans or the womans point of view.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:54:49   #179
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Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Let's get something constructive out of what you want.

First off, violence to prostitutes is already illegal under a whole raft of legislation. They get the same protection as everyone else under the law.

Theft from them is also illegal, and that applies to the money they earn from prostitution.

Selling them drugs, or giving them drugs, is already illegal.

Pimping is illegal, under the Common Law definition of "Living off immoral earnings". This is specifically aimed at pimps, not prostitutes.

Kerb-crawling is illegal.

Soliciting is illegal.

Running a brothel is illegal, under the rather archaic (but still enforced) Common Law definition of "Running a bawdy house".


What else do you (and/or Scabby) want to be made illegal or compulsory? Let's get some specifics, rather than vague expressions of displeasure taking broad swipes at stereotypes.
Oh well if its all illegal, then it doesnt happen and I must be imagining it. Glad you put together such a strong case there Laz.

For one, I think prostitution should be legalised so that these women are protected PROPERLY under the law as any other worker is. Get them to pay tax and national insurance, then its a valid career choice.
My second point was really that you can all sit and say no one's getting harmed, they all have a choice and hey- they're free to spend their happily earned money, but basically, you and I all know thats a big fat lie. Its exploitation of people who can defend themselves least. I'm sure you'd all love to believe prostitutes live the high life of Belle de Jour, and they've all chosen this as their career path after GCSE level but sadly they dont. Protein's friend is a prime example of someone forced into selling herself for drugs. Whatever the reasons and however little you like them, most prostitutes do it out of desperation not choice. YOu can argue till you're blue in the face, but you wont change that.
My third point was that this exploitation is almost entirely men exploiting women, and that male escorts poncing about London with ladies who lunch hardly compare anyway. I didnt make any generalisations about the men who visit prostitutes. I know several men who have and I wouldnt categorise them as unable/desperate as KH did above. My point was that if there is such a one sided activity going on, what does that say about the role of being male or the male psyche in our society. As per usual you all read that as me saying 'ALL MEN VISIT PROSTITUTES!!'. No. But there is I think, a validity to ask why its just men who do it (apart from the odd 50 year old male escort addict).
I dont know what the answers are Laz, I just object to everyone looking at this as a Capitalist transaction where everyone gets what they want. Its not. It is about power and exploitation and one party ends up traumatised. A lot of prostitutes talk about how they no longer enjoy regular sex or relationships, how they feel they dont own their body anymore etc. There are whole books on this very topic. I'm surprised that someone with such a usually enquiring mind seems to be so 19th century about it.

Qweeg- please don't cite and abuse the good name of mother nature in debates about humans. Animals have fuck all to do with us, and I could give you millions of examples of animal behaviour that dont correlate. I think its also particularly odd for someone who by his own admission is seen by society as 'black-male' to be invoking 'nature' when 'nature' has been used so frequently and erroneously to denigrate black people as 'savages' 'subhuman' having 'animal instincts' etc. A lot of Southern Americans liked to use nature to prove that black men had a savage desire to rape white women and murder white men. Great. Really solid facts then. Human behaviour is learned and very little of our behaviour is natural. I cannot believe you actually think men want or need sex more than women. This is PATRIARCHAL bullshit

Patriarchy isnt a load of men huddled round a desk in the pentagon, obviously, but as explained before, its the word use to signify a system or series of beliefs that give greater credence and power to men and 'male activities'. Saying things like 'Men need sex more than women' just supports that system. I think any denial that this is in evidence is just futile- clearly men are more wealthy, better respected and more powerful than women on the whole, and clearly, sexism in varying degrees still exists. Patriarchy is about reinforcing stereotypes, refusing to question or explain patterns of behaviour that damage women and just providing an environment where these ideas can be be acceptable. A bit like in the police force where we have 'institutionalised racism' you can think of patriarchy as 'institutionalised sexism' that runs through our whole society, and yes, is also enforced by womens behaviour.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:58:31   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qweeg
You mentioned Polish and Latvian girls in Stokholm, what about Polish and Latvian men in Europes construction industry? Long hours, no hard-hat, no health insurance... but of course being men and therefore part of the Grand Patriarchy Society, those hardships mean nothing. Okay, so what about children toiling away in the sweat-factories of the 3rd Worlds "New Democracies"...

etc


etc


etc
Thats just trying to take the argument off on a tangent Qweeg. WHo said we dont have sympathy for these people too? It just happens we arent talking about them right now, and their plight is irrelevant to this debate.
Please stop going on about patriarchy like we think its a communion of men.
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Old 23-03-2004, 20:00:51   #181
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Originally posted by Qweeg
but of course being men and therefore part of the Grand Patriarchy Society, those hardships mean nothing.
I want you to read post-socialist feminist literature for a reason you know, and mostly it's 'cause of your misunderstanding of this point, which I've felt like commenting on before (it's appeared several times) but didn't cause of the "No Darkstar" clause.

Traditionally, lefty thought has only ever recognised one type of oppression - that of class. It took well into the 60s and 70s for feminist, black-power, gay-rights etc. issues to even penetrate the hardline left, and well into the 80s you can find examples of (for example) communists calling homosexuals "decadent bourgeoisie". In the 70s feminists were basically divided into two camps: those who capitulated to socialism and said "yes, the oppression of women is really class oppression too" and those who rejected class oppression entirely in favour of a patriarchal model.

In 1981 Heidi Hartmann's essay "The Unhappy Marriage of Marxism and Feminism: Towards a More Progressive Union" caused quite a lot of stir in feminist circles. It proposed a "two-system feminism" whereby there is both a capitalist oppression and a patriarchal oppression, and neither is part of the other. Nor, for that matter, does fighting one mean fighting the other, and gains in one struggle may equate losses in another.

Cleaned of its marxists root this theory flourished (with the natural addition of more systems of oppression, like racist and homophobic ones) as "post-socialist feminism" from the early 90s onwards. In fact, the theory-building done by people like Anne Phillips ten years ago is a cornerstone in today's identity politics debate. A modern lefty (by my standards) is someone who recognises the multiple, paralel types of oppression but doesn't conflate them, someone who can recognise the complexity of someone being oppressed (as the working-class man is) and at the same time being an oppressor (as the working-class man is when he votes for the BNP). Yes, the black working-class woman is probably worse off than the white middle-class one, but that's because there are multiple, independent forces working against her.

No, Iain, no need to comment, this is an internal Lefty debate.
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Old 23-03-2004, 20:05:35   #182
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Old 23-03-2004, 20:31:08   #183
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Originally posted by Angelhorns
Oh well if its all illegal, then it doesnt happen and I must be imagining it. Glad you put together such a strong case there Laz.
That's a downright ridiculous statement.
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Old 23-03-2004, 20:34:57   #184
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I'm glad you agree with me
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Old 23-03-2004, 20:46:33   #185
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Originally posted by Angelhorns
For one, I think prostitution should be legalised so that these women are protected PROPERLY under the law as any other worker is. Get them to pay tax and national insurance, then its a valid career choice.


Though does it validate their being objectivised sexually?

Quote:
My second point was really that you can all sit and say no one's getting harmed, they all have a choice and hey- they're free to spend their happily earned money, but basically, you and I all know thats a big fat lie.
Was anyone claiming that? In the story that sparked this thread, some might argue that to be the case, but I don't see many arguing that this is typical of prostitution in the wider world

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Its exploitation of people who can defend themselves least. I'm sure you'd all love to believe prostitutes live the high life of Belle de Jour, and they've all chosen this as their career path after GCSE level but sadly they dont.
Protein's friend is a prime example of someone forced into selling herself for drugs. Whatever the reasons and however little you like them, most prostitutes do it out of desperation not choice. YOu can argue till you're blue in the face, but you wont change that.
The chances of me ever arguing that were non-existant before this thread started and haven't changed. Are you confusing me with somebody else?

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My third point was that this exploitation is almost entirely men exploiting women, and that male escorts poncing about London with ladies who lunch hardly compare anyway. I didnt make any generalisations about the men who visit prostitutes. I know several men who have and I wouldnt categorise them as unable/desperate as KH did above. My point was that if there is such a one sided activity going on, what does that say about the role of being male or the male psyche in our society.
Well, first of all there are a lot of female pimps happily exploiting women. Secondly, the fact that males are programmed to seek sexual opportunities where they find them has little to do with our society- it's evolutionary. In our society that translates into prostitution as well as casual sex, etc. In less enlightened (?) times I dare say it would have been even nastier.


Quote:
As per usual you all read that as me saying 'ALL MEN VISIT PROSTITUTES!!'. No. But there is I think, a validity to ask why its just men who do it (apart from the odd 50 year old male escort addict).
No I didn't, but I did see another set of "Statistical glitches" and "self-delusion" smears by association. It's just stereotypes, and I refuse to believe any group battling class prejudice is well-advised to use the tactics of their thicker oppressors.

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I dont know what the answers are Laz, I just object to everyone looking at this as a Capitalist transaction where everyone gets what they want. Its not. It is about power and exploitation and one party ends up traumatised. A lot of prostitutes talk about how they no longer enjoy regular sex or relationships, how they feel they dont own their body anymore etc. There are whole books on this very topic. I'm surprised that someone with such a usually enquiring mind seems to be so 19th century about it.
You are confusing me with someone else, aren't you? I'm happily arguing that criminalising prostitution isn't the answer. You agree with me on that point. Yet suddenly I'm a Victorian Empire-building oppressor in a top hat for agreeing with you? You can understand my confusion....
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Old 23-03-2004, 20:59:54   #186
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Well perhaps we are agreeing but not understanding what the other is saying then.

ALthough please get off this 'men are genetically programmed to want sex more' thing though. There is not a shred of evidence to support that statement using genetics. Genetics is in its infancy and we really understand very little about the differences between male and female

Men are not programmed, they are socialised into behaving like this, just as women are socialised into desiring weddings. WOmen have all the sexual urges men have and in most couples I know its the woman who is more voracious, but this is a crappy patriarchal myth that prevails- 'women dont really like sex and you have to coerce them into it, whereas men are so virile they can hardly breathe without getting turned on and then they just HAVE to cheat on their wife'. DOn't blame me honey- it was my genes!

No. Although it is true that women have different choices to make since we cant walk away from pregnancy like you can, and you dont get branded sluts.
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Old 23-03-2004, 21:01:58   #187
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I'm assuming genetics is what you're referring to by 'evolution'.
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Old 23-03-2004, 21:12:33   #188
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All this talk about sex is making me horny.
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Old 23-03-2004, 21:14:52   #189
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Old 23-03-2004, 21:16:06   #190
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Aw go ahead...it'll make you feel better
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Old 23-03-2004, 21:30:39   #191
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Naw, it was a little to nasty, I have to show I got some 'couth.'
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Old 23-03-2004, 22:10:52   #192
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Originally posted by Angelhorns
You really are thick. If the depth of your thought extends only to acts and not to motivations or social/psychological influences, patterns of behaviour and blindingly obvious imbalances I cannot be bothered to engage in a conversation with you.
That is the extent of your argument ? Calling someone thick, and then continuing to claim that this is all about evil motivations etc, when you produce no evidence to support your illusion ?

In that case, I am grateful you can not be bothered to engage in conversation. To make it worthwhile there has to be at least a suspicion you have a case, rather than just a dangerous heartfelt insistence that, that which you find distastful is bound to be oppressive to you and your sisters.
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Old 23-03-2004, 22:20:36   #193
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go fuck your sisters gary
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Old 23-03-2004, 22:49:27   #194
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
Well perhaps we are agreeing but not understanding what the other is saying then.

ALthough please get off this 'men are genetically programmed to want sex more' thing though. There is not a shred of evidence to support that statement using genetics. Genetics is in its infancy and we really understand very little about the differences between male and female

Men are not programmed, they are socialised into behaving like this, just as women are socialised into desiring weddings. WOmen have all the sexual urges men have and in most couples I know its the woman who is more voracious, but this is a crappy patriarchal myth that prevails- 'women dont really like sex and you have to coerce them into it, whereas men are so virile they can hardly breathe without getting turned on and then they just HAVE to cheat on their wife'. DOn't blame me honey- it was my genes!

No. Although it is true that women have different choices to make since we cant walk away from pregnancy like you can, and you dont get branded sluts.
Why would anyone look for an answer in genetics when it's an accepted part of animal and human psychology?

Again you're refuting arguments that absolutely nobody here has even inferred. Having been sexually active for nearly 20 years I'm well aware that women have sexual urges, but I don't accept they are the same as the male instinct (and I'm very consciously using "instinct" and not "programming"). The levels of voracity are pretty much irrelevant- it's how the instincts manifest themselves that differ.

The male sexual impulse is simple- spread the seed. Preferably in the most fertile, nubile ground.

The female sexual impulse is different, as you're doubtless already aware.

As for social programming? It doesn't create the instinct- we were knobbing around before we had societies. It shapes it, and often represses/perverts it. Or civilises it.

Now before this leads into an accusation that this is an attempt to justify phallocentric promiscuity and sexual exploitation (which it isn't), bear in mind this is an instinct. Not an act. It's up to the individual whether they act on it, and having been relentlessly monogamous for my entire life I don't have any apologies to make or guilt to bear based on sweeping generalisations as to what somebody else presumes men to be.

Ultimately I make strenuous attempts to avoid interfering, or passing judgement, on the sexual morality of others. That's at the core of why I feel criminalising prostitution sucks. If other crimes are involved then that changes things. However, when you hold such values, you don't half get arsed off by being reminded what a rapist pig you are.
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Old 23-03-2004, 23:25:02   #195
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is it too late to ask for a time out in this thread and it looks like Chris was right for a change.
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Old 23-03-2004, 23:37:40   #196
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I love this Laz.

classic male bullshit

Since when has genetics been an 'accepted' part of anything? They have barely begun reserach let alone made any concrete discoveries yet, although many theories are being bandied about.

Nobody has the faintest clue how primitive societies were ordered beyond the most basic clues, so how come you know so much about the caveman's sexual habits?

The female instinct is 'different'?????
different how? We only want to have sex on Tuesdays? We only want to have sex upside down in a canal boat? I am not aware that my sexual impulse is any different to yours, and I cannot believe that someone as intelligent as you can peddle such tripe. You're accepting learned social behaviour as evidence of 'instincts' (despite the fact that most sociologists/anthropologists will tell you humans are born with no instincts, except fear response). Sexual behaviour is learned in maturity/adulthood (dont you remember your blog about the SUn King having to be literally taught how to fuck?), its not inherent. It takes different forms in different societies. It is also extremely different for different people, hence the many weird fetishes that exist one presumes. It is possible to 'sexualise' anything, even a shoe or a piece of rubber, and your argument about spreading seed on fertile ground is quite useless in explaining that away.

Not only that Laz, but in whose book does it make sense to have a species where one half (according to your theory) wants sex all the time everywhere with anyone, and the other half only wants it with one person (I assume that was the inference) or within certain circumstances? Women want sex just as much as men because lets face it, it takes two sexes to keep a species going, and it makes sense that both sides have to try as hard as possible in a species where fertility happens only once a month, gestation takes 9 months and prenancy usually only produces one offspring.

There's a lot of evidence that sperm from different men 'compete' inside the woman with the strongest and healthiest fertilising the egg which only serves to prove that the sluttier a woman is, the better chance she has of having a child with good genes. YOu imply that you are somehow reigning in a wild animal lust for sex under a monogomous facade, whereas us women are 'different', by which I assume you mean sexually disinterested. Desirous only when a precise set of circumstances comes into play. Personally I could fuck loads of different men all week long and thoroughly enjoy it, and I've met plenty of women the same, but I choose to be monogamous, as you have chosen to be because monogamy provides other things than quick thrills. WOmen want just as much sex as men, but as I have already stated, we have different considerations to weigh up. You are making vast assumptions about female sexuality that just dont stand up. It may not be socially OK, fashionable or acceptable for women to bang on about sex like men do, and it may have different implications for us to talk about or do it, but that does NOT mean we do not have sexual impulses like yours.
SOciety has been heavily weighted until recently towards men being able to be more sexually active and open about it, and women preserving virginity until marriage and babies beckoned. Women were chastised (and still are) for overt sexual displays, whereas men are usually slapped on the back. WOmen also ran risks with far heavier penalties right into the 70's and 80's where there was still something shameful about being a single mum. We may have the pill now, but societal attitudes and behaviour take a long time to change.

Lastly, I have never ever called you, or any other man a rapist pig, or implied it. All men are individuals, although like women, its possible to see trends or patterns of behaviour in the totality. That stands to reason. I've never claimed to know how men think. I wish I could!
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Old 23-03-2004, 23:40:37   #197
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Old 23-03-2004, 23:43:36   #198
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well ffs, this crappy old 'men want it and women dont' argument is so fucking boring and unintelligent. It defies logic and experience, and is just a load of Victorian crap.
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Old 23-03-2004, 23:45:01   #199
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ffs?
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Old 23-03-2004, 23:55:36   #200
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So what is a "No Darkstar" zone? What did you have in mind Scabby? Whatever it was, I don't it actually happened, SB.
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