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Old 22-03-2004, 21:49:11   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by maroule
8.000 children are dying every day for lack of access to water, and they don't get a line in our papers
Oh yeah? Name one.

SP
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:50:00   #102
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Books read in the last month:

Flames Across the Border: the Canadian-American Tragedy
Down and Out in Paris and London (reread)
Guns, Germs and Steel
The Sound and the Fury
Vimy
Treason (reread of a sci-fi book from adolescence)
The Pinball Effect (reread)

some more, I'm sure, that I can't think of

And only the dull think that physics or math are boring. Those are the ones who can't see a big picture, but instead are lost in details. Studying a subject as masturbatory as literature or any of the "blank studies" (insert Gender, Race, etc.) is such a useless exercise in navel-gazing it hurts my brain to think that some waste their lives at it.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:52:29   #103
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Your definition of "academic" seems to be "somebody who twiddles their thumbs all day", whereas scientist is "somebody who works at a subject where the bounds of human knowledge may actually be furthered".

Thanks, I'll stick to science and let the academics deal with feminist readings of the Cat in the Hat.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:56:43   #104
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Actually it's precisely the opposite - the humanities try to reach deeper into the core of human existence and analyses everything, maths and sceince does not challenge anything but blindly ploughs down a very tightly bounded lane without even attempting to question what it's doing and why.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:57:33   #105
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What, exactly, has the study of humanities taught us?
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:05:19   #106
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I'll answer for you, if you don't mind.

Nothing.

Why not?

Because there's no verifiability. Until there is, it's just a bunch of people spouting a bunch of nonsense. That's why I don't do string theory.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:06:45   #107
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Only perspectives and ideas, new ways of looking at the world and ourselves. New questions to ask.

Unlike science, we don't blindly believe that what we look at is the truth.

Don't get me wrong, I like natural science and it's a useful compliment to more worthy studies like aesthetics and sociology that actual deal with ourselves. It's the scientists attitude I dislike, the inability to view themselves in terms of truth and power and culture and world-view. The arrogance, if you will.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:08:00   #108
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you lot are so desperate to prove feminism wrong you can't even acknowledge when someone is right.

whatever you say about scabby's reasoning, some of which is highly dubious I agree, you cant get around the fact that prostitution is basically a one way street in which men are the entertained, despite the odd example of male prostitution for women (and lets face it you dont see many teenage boys getting kerbcrawled by straight women). I think scabby is trying to highlight the way in which men use women as recreation. None of you actually seem prepared to admit that there is something in the male psyche or the role of being male in a modern society that leads to this disproportionate imbalance of power and exploitation just because you yourselves havent done it. Perhaps then its just a statistical error, or a figment of the imagination?

If any of you think its OK to pay someone for using their body in that way, you're even more disaffected than you make out. Paying someone does not cleanse the act, or make it non-exploitative. Patriarchy isnt a shadowy organisation, its a way of life, its a society tipped in the male's favour, its a way of ridiculing women when they question the system and punishing them when they try and speak out or break the rules that govern the behaviour prescribed to them. Patriarchy is about setting up and supporting a society that reveres maleness, and disenfranchises women. Using prostitutes supports patriarchy in the same way that calling black people niggers supports racism. What could be more disenfranchising than having your body sold over and over again, as a trophy for people who couldnt care less about your wellbeing, your personality, and just want to use you as a tool for their dirty pleasure? Its an out of body experience for the fully awake. Your body isnt yours, its property, available to the highest bidder. And lets not kid ourselves that most prostitutes are well paid sex workers, asserting their capitalist rights and shopping at Fendi on their day off. They are poor, trapped, abused women with a raft of social and psychological issues, being pimped out by men who take half their earnings. Many are underage, on drugs, forced into it, or homeless. Its not a product you buy off a shelf, its a fucked up human life.

Virginity is a considerable trophy for most men. Otherwise why would most women guard it so fiercely, pin their honour to it and wait for the 'right person' etc, and why would men do everything in their power to divest women of their virginity? You only have to look in a porn mag to see how highly prized the intact virgin, or the inexperienced initiate is to a sexually voracious male. Its a territorial conquering of someone's body. I was there first. She's ruined for all men etc etc etc

I think a lot of the time you guys on here think that because you havent done something, all men are whiter than white and that you have to ridicule feminism to feel better about it. Some time, you might just look at whats going on, and see why it appears this way to millions of intelligent women. What is it men are doing that makes us believe there's a patriarchal society, or that men exploit women or seek power over women? Then you might start to understand. Excuse making and denial dont take away the problems, or the facts.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:08:11   #109
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The discussion of what is verifiable and what is not is a humanities discussion.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:12:16   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
you lot are so desperate to prove feminism wrong you can't even acknowledge when someone is right.

whatever you say about scabby's reasoning, some of which is highly dubious I agree, you cant get around the fact that prostitution is basically a one way street in which men are the entertained, despite the odd example of male prostitution for women (and lets face it you dont see many teenage boys getting kerbcrawled by straight women). I think scabby is trying to highlight the way in which men use women as recreation. None of you actually seem prepared to admit that there is something in the male psyche or the role of being male in a modern society that leads to this disproportionate imbalance of power and exploitation just because you yourselves havent done it. Perhaps then its just a statistical error, or a figment of the imagination?

If any of you think its OK to pay someone for using their body in that way, you're even more disaffected than you make out. Paying someone does not cleanse the act, or make it non-exploitative. Patriarchy isnt a shadowy organisation, its a way of life, its a society tipped in the male's favour, its a way of ridiculing women when they question the system and punishing them when they try and speak out or break the rules that govern the behaviour prescribed to them. Patriarchy is about setting up and supporting a society that reveres maleness, and disenfranchises women. Using prostitutes supports patriarchy in the same way that calling black people niggers supports racism. What could be more disenfranchising than having your body sold over and over again, as a trophy for people who couldnt care less about your wellbeing, your personality, and just want to use you as a tool for their dirty pleasure? Its an out of body experience for the fully awake. Your body isnt yours, its property, available to the highest bidder. And lets not kid ourselves that most prostitutes are well paid sex workers, asserting their capitalist rights and shopping at Fendi on their day off. They are poor, trapped, abused women with a raft of social and psychological issues, being pimped out by men who take half their earnings. Many are underage, on drugs, forced into it, or homeless. Its not a product you buy off a shelf, its a fucked up human life.

Virginity is a considerable trophy for most men. Otherwise why would most women guard it so fiercely, pin their honour to it and wait for the 'right person' etc, and why would men do everything in their power to divest women of their virginity? You only have to look in a porn mag to see how highly prized the intact virgin, or the inexperienced initiate is to a sexually voracious male. Its a territorial conquering of someone's body. I was there first. She's ruined for all men etc etc etc

I think a lot of the time you guys on here think that because you havent done something, all men are whiter than white and that you have to ridicule feminism to feel better about it. Some time, you might just look at whats going on, and see why it appears this way to millions of intelligent women. What is it men are doing that makes us believe there's a patriarchal society, or that men exploit women or seek power over women? Then you might start to understand. Excuse making and denial dont take away the problems, or the facts.
Right on! You go girl!
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:13:44   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
kerbcrawled
That's the second time you've used that term. I'm afraid to even ask.

As to your actual point:

a) We've moved on and have turned this into a humanities-bashing party.

b) So what if there are more female prostitutes? Do you want to initiate some sort of affirmative action program to get more men into the biz? There's simply more demand for female prostitutes because the number of men wanting (and unable/too lazy to get) casual sex at any one time is higher than the number of women in that situation. The fact is that this gives women more power, not less. In other words, a man who's down and out is SOL, but a woman always has another career if she wants to engage in it.
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Last edited by KrazyHorse@home; 22-03-2004 at 22:15:58.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:14:57   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
When it becomes useful and/or interesting or pays well.
men will never find it useful to study something that has the potential to knock them off their perch.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:15:01   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
The discussion of what is verifiable and what is not is a humanities discussion.
No it isn't.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:18:07   #114
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Yes it is.

The fact that you're even thinking in those terms, futhermore, is a success of humanities. Asking "what is science" and "what is the scientific method" are humanities questions.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:21:04   #115
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Right on! You go girl!
Like you read all that.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:21:25   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
That's the second time you've used that term. I'm afraid to even ask.

As to your actual point:

a) We've moved on and have turned this into a humanities-bashing party.

b) So what if there are more female prostitutes? Do you want to initiate some sort of affirmative action program to get more men into the biz? There's simply more demand for female prostitutes because the number of men wanting (and unable/too lazy to get) casual sex at any one time is higher than the number of women in that situation. The fact is that this gives women more power, not less. In other words, a man who's down and out is SOL, but a woman always has another career if she wants to engage in it.
This is the kind of lazy response I expect on CG

Assuming its 'natural' that men want more sex and therefore all is right with the world

Assuming men who go to prostitutes are all sad desperadoes and therefore all is right with the world.

Do you really think that being a prostitute gives you power???

Please engage brain KH
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:29:09   #117
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Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Yes it is.

The fact that you're even thinking in those terms, futhermore, is a success of humanities. Asking "what is science" and "what is the scientific method" are humanities questions.

Repeating it doesn't make it true.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:33:14   #118
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Originally posted by Angelhorns This is the kind of lazy response I expect on CG

Assuming its 'natural' that men want more sex and therefore all is right with the world
If you want to change this, start hiring more male prostitutes. You're obviously not keeping up with your responsibilities.

Quote:
Assuming men who go to prostitutes are all sad desperadoes and therefore all is right with the world.
Some are, some aren't. That's why I said "unable/too lazy". Some men just don't want the responsibilities of a relationship, i.e. the prostitute is paid to go away when they're done.

Quote:
Do you really think that being a prostitute gives you power???
I think having the choice to become a prostitute gives you power.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:34:19   #119
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Originally posted by Angelhorns
Please engage brain KH
Only have to once you disengage the tired mantra of the modern feminist.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:40:29   #120
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You mean feminists are now united on the concept that prostitution is a bad thing? Last time I checked, there was some high-profile dissent on the issue.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:42:39   #121
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I should probably say "feminism of 1980", then. AFAIK this view of female sexuality among feminists is fairly recent (in the last decade or so). Could be wrong on this.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:49:43   #122
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There's too many big posts. I'll just assume that, although the general consensus is that nobody should face criminal sanctions in this case, I'm still supposed to feel guilty about something.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:50:27   #123
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Jesus Christ. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. You actually managed to make me feel bad for starting this thread, which is, given the drivel that I have posted over the years, something of an achievement.

Bloody Hell. Time Out I say....
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:51:57   #124
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Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
There's too many big posts. I'll just assume that, although the general consensus is that nobody should face criminal sanctions in this case, I'm still supposed to feel guilty about something.
That's about the size of it, apparently.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:54:39   #125
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Originally posted by Angelhorns
men will never find it useful to study something that has the potential to knock them off their perch.

Like it would be any better if you lot were in charge - you'd be paying men to shag each other in front of you, I bet. Probably.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:55:23   #126
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ewww.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:56:34   #127
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Like it would be any better if you lot were in charge - you'd be paying men to shag each other in front of you, I bet. Probably.
How much?
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:57:03   #128
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Is she paying, I mean, not how much do you bet.
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Old 22-03-2004, 22:58:51   #129
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How much?
Dunno - got to wait for her auction on Ebay to finish
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Old 23-03-2004, 00:02:59   #130
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I cant even be arsed to argue back If 'tired modern feminist mantra is the best you can do.

So sorry my views dont meet with your approval- probably because they dont make you feel good or entitled

Lets see how empowered you feel though after a good few months of streetwalking, probably a couple of beatings, your pimp taking most of your money and using drugs mainly as a means to forget about what you're doing.
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Old 23-03-2004, 00:06:50   #131
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I just popped in to say this is a really, really long thread. I'm not planning on reading it.

Haven't you all solved the world's problems yet?
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Old 23-03-2004, 00:08:13   #132
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yes, get rid of krazy twat
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Old 23-03-2004, 00:23:34   #133
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...and surrender to the hamsters?
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Old 23-03-2004, 00:29:10   #134
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hamsters are the dark overlords

you will see
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Old 23-03-2004, 00:35:18   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
yes, get rid of krazy twat
You'll have to twatstitutionalise me.
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Old 23-03-2004, 01:28:38   #136
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I bin hoit gonz alla, niemand mog mi,
I konn nur waana, und wort'n auf di.
I hob doch olles, wos ma ho'm kon,
doch oll's wos i hob, mi schaut kane on.
Irgendwo, Irgendwem muaß doch a für mi geb'n,
A bisserl a Liebe braucht jeder im Le'm.
I suach nur ane, die zu mir sogt:
Ob heut bist Du meina, weul i di mog.
I bin hoit gonz alla, kaner mog mi,
i konn nur wana, weu Du möd'st Di nie.
I hob doch olles, wos ma ho'm kon,
doch oll's wos i hob, mi wü kana hob'n.
Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwem muaß doch a für mi geb'n,
a bisserl a Liebe braucht jeder zum Leb'n.
I suach nur jemand, der zu mir sogt:
ob heut bleib' i bei Dir, weil i Di mog.I bin hoit gonz alla, niemand mog mi,
I konn nur waana, und wort'n auf di.
I hob doch olles, wos ma ho'm kon,
doch oll's wos i hob, mi schaut kane on.
Irgendwo, Irgendwem muaß doch a für mi geb'n,
A bisserl a Liebe braucht jeder im Le'm.
I suach nur ane, die zu mir sogt:
Ob heut bist Du meina, weul i di mog.
I bin hoit gonz alla, kaner mog mi,
i konn nur wana, weu Du möd'st Di nie.
I hob doch olles, wos ma ho'm kon,
doch oll's wos i hob, mi wü kana hob'n.
Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwem muaß doch a für mi geb'n,
a bisserl a Liebe braucht jeder zum Leb'n.
I suach nur jemand, der zu mir sogt:
ob heut bleib' i bei Dir, weil i Di mog.I bin hoit gonz alla, niemand mog mi,
I konn nur waana, und wort'n auf di.
I hob doch olles, wos ma ho'm kon,
doch oll's wos i hob, mi schaut kane on.
Irgendwo, Irgendwem muaß doch a für mi geb'n,
A bisserl a Liebe braucht jeder im Le'm.
I suach nur ane, die zu mir sogt:
Ob heut bist Du meina, weul i di mog.
I bin hoit gonz alla, kaner mog mi,
i konn nur wana, weu Du möd'st Di nie.
I hob doch olles, wos ma ho'm kon,
doch oll's wos i hob, mi wü kana hob'n.
Irgendwie, irgendwo, irgendwem muaß doch a für mi geb'n,
a bisserl a Liebe braucht jeder zum Leb'n.
I suach nur jemand, der zu mir sogt:
ob heut bleib' i bei Dir, weil i Di mog.
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Old 23-03-2004, 10:41:55   #137
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I just don't see why if some stranger I don't know out there books a prostitute I've never met, why does that mean I'm an asshole, or hate women, or want to control anybody?

And furthermore, although there are definately lots of sexist atrocities going on in the world, that doesn't mean every spoilt Western brat who of their own accord decides to 'sell sex' is a true bonifide victim. Who wants to be a fucking victim anyway? (excuse the pun) Western society with all it's little boxes and niches and politicaly correct brackets seems obsessesed with victimhood as a means to feel special and somehow 'moraly elevated'. That's what the woman is doing, and she can stick it right back up her where it fell out of.

Anyway, not having paid too close attention to her particular story, last time I checked, the point this middle-class I'm-a-Lesbian-ACTually was making is about student dept, not the insidious plots of The Patriarchy organization in it's neverending drive for global domination of all things even vaguely female.

And I still don't buy that the shitty way the world works is any more in the power of all-and-any-man-anywhere to 'CONTROL' then it is in womens power. I suppose all the uncivilised male-on-female crap that happens in the rest of the animal world is part of The Patriarchy's evil plans... or maybe nature just gave males ugly impulses, that is as much a part of new life as it is a part of why wars and claws exist. You're confusing Nature with some kind of intentional effort to demean females by human males, and that that sucks. Nature decided that males seek sex with females alot and more, nature decided that sex is way more biologicaly expensive for females then for males, nature decided that male mammals should compete aggressively with eachother, and entagle themselves in domination games when part of a social species.... you don't like the way our stinky slimey mucky species conducts its affairs... fine, niether do I alot of the time, but don't blame me, I didn't make the world, and I refuse to have the other major aspect of my 'description' made out crappy.

As a black-male, I feel that niether the two major description-words that 'sum me up' are very welcome in the world, only 'black-females' have it worse really... (again I acknowledge the existance and evil of sexism) but I feel fuck-all pity for that middle-class student brat. Probably the same character trait she used to decide she is a lesbian is what made her decide to prostitute her virginity (Shock the Parents).

And lastly, I think women are idolized way more then men in our society, I don't know if that's a good thing, but our society realy 'digs the godess' on a scale not seen since Earth Mother worship. There are giant picture of them everywhere, beautiful, powerful, wise, all-powerful mother-executives superior to us foolish and immature males that fall around chasing them and hoping to be 'good enough' to impress them... I think the problem with that is the pressure it puts women under living up to the she-idols of the media.
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Old 23-03-2004, 13:30:26   #138
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Gary, find a prostitute that doesn't hate her clients. "The Happy Whore" is and remains a myth.

Have you not seen the documentaries on the subject. There are happy hookers as well as those doing it just to get by. It is the minority that hate their clients. Oh sure none of us is guarantied job satisfaction, but we don't hate our customers.


tihnk you both could do with a healthy dose of Feminist literature.

I've read some feminist stuff. It tends to be clearly nonsense. Annoyingly so. Doesn't encourage one to read more.


Gary since he's obviously so far behind

Roughly translated to "Gary, since he's not been brainwashed into thinking green is blue" ?

cant get around the fact that prostitution is basically a one way street in which men are the entertained

One can say the same thing about singers or comedians or whatever. It's a service industry which in this case tends to appeal to male customers more than female. It's pointless trying to suggest there's something wrong in that.

None of you actually seem prepared to admit that there is something in the male psyche or the role of being male in a modern society that leads to this disproportionate imbalance of power and exploitation

Again what's with this power and exploitation kick ? It's a connection some of you want to exist, but it just doesn't. It's a simple agreement between individuals to buy and sell something that's in demand. If some don't like that, well one can't please everyone, but there's no need to decide it's something other than what it is.

Paying someone does not cleanse the act, or make it non-exploitative

Cleanse the act ? What's there to cleanse ? And who is exploiting whom here, if anyone ? Both parties get something out of the deal which is why it is entered into willingly. No one can change that because it doesn't fit in with their beliefs.

its a society tipped in the male's favour

Not the society I've grown up in. I used to get VERY pissed off with the advantages society gave girls and women. more leniency and understanding, less expectations, more prepared to take their side. For someone who is basically a shy person it seemed very unfair, but to a large extent I've chilled out now. But the idea that society is in favour of the male simply because the female representation is in the minority in higher positions of authority would be laughable if it wasn't so irritating. All it shows is that women are less pressurised in joining in the Rat Race, the very thing a lot of us would prefer to be out of anyway.

Using prostitutes ...

In the same way one "uses" the grocer when buying from their shop ?

What could be more disenfranchising than having your body sold over and over again

They're not having their body sold, they are renting their body out of choice.

And what's all this about "disenfranchising" anyway ? Who's being deprived of anything ? Surely this is a red herring to throw all off the main discussion here ?


a trophy for people

I do not wish to be rude, but reality seems to have been totally lost at this point. Trophy ? What trophy ? Some folk had sex, that's it.

I don't believe it is useful to continue pulling out further bits of this particular post since it's so far off reality one wouldn't know where to start. But, unfortunately, I guess that's often the case when feminism is being discussed. Which is why it tends to be a waste of time reading about it.
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Old 23-03-2004, 14:11:12   #139
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Great post Gary!
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Old 23-03-2004, 15:35:24   #140
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Does Jamie Leigh-Curtis's character in the film Trading Places count as a legitimate "source" for the purposes of this argument?
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Old 23-03-2004, 15:40:57   #141
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or that gritty documentary 'pretty woman'
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after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
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Old 23-03-2004, 15:49:07   #142
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Apparently there was a massive surge in girls going to LA to become whores after Pretty Woman came out.
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Old 23-03-2004, 15:58:11   #143
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Morons...
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Old 23-03-2004, 17:23:06   #144
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
Apparently there was a massive surge in girls going to LA to become whores after Pretty Woman came out.
yeah, that'd be our fault, as evil men obsessed with controlling anything anywhere even rumoured to be slightly female (especially if it's lesbian), we cunningly arranged for all those girls to want to be prostitutes by watching Pretty Woman, a film we cunningly had made for that exact purpose.
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Old 23-03-2004, 17:42:08   #145
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I cant even be arsed to argue back If 'tired modern feminist mantra is the best you can do.

So sorry my views dont meet with your approval- probably because they dont make you feel good or entitled

Lets see how empowered you feel though after a good few months of streetwalking, probably a couple of beatings, your pimp taking most of your money and using drugs mainly as a means to forget about what you're doing.
Let's get something constructive out of what you want.

First off, violence to prostitutes is already illegal under a whole raft of legislation. They get the same protection as everyone else under the law.

Theft from them is also illegal, and that applies to the money they earn from prostitution.

Selling them drugs, or giving them drugs, is already illegal.

Pimping is illegal, under the Common Law definition of "Living off immoral earnings". This is specifically aimed at pimps, not prostitutes.

Kerb-crawling is illegal.

Soliciting is illegal.

Running a brothel is illegal, under the rather archaic (but still enforced) Common Law definition of "Running a bawdy house".


What else do you (and/or Scabby) want to be made illegal or compulsory? Let's get some specifics, rather than vague expressions of displeasure taking broad swipes at stereotypes.
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Old 23-03-2004, 18:05:45   #146
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Jesus Christ. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. You actually managed to make me feel bad for starting this thread, which is, given the drivel that I have posted over the years, something of an achievement.

Bloody Hell. Time Out I say....
You damned ass-monkey!

Look at all dem long boring posts!

I blame you!
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Old 23-03-2004, 18:57:14   #147
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I for one want everything the prostitute does* made legal, and everything the people who use her do made illegal- no pussyfooting around the subject with "kerbcrawling" charges, make it illegal to buy sex period. And pimping etc., of course.

*no, this does not include all the other crimes they may commit. I know you want to leap at that one.
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:01:28   #148
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What good does that do other than satisfy your own (warped) conscience?
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:03:00   #149
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Some would say that marriage would be illegal if you outlawed the buying of sex. Not me though, I'm just pointing out that some would...
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Old 23-03-2004, 19:05:38   #150
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Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
What good does that do other than satisfy your own (warped) conscience?
It makes immoral things that are grossly harmful to others illegal while making not immoral things legal? It's the purpose of any change in law one would imagine.
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