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Old 22-03-2004, 10:43:50   #51
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Scabby: Are you implying that if all females were offered a reasonable, state provided income and free education, that there wouldn't be any prostitution?
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Old 22-03-2004, 10:47:48   #52
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No, I'm implying that if men and women had equal power in society there wouldn't be any prostitution. It's far from being "the world's oldest profession" as some would have it- it only appeared once hierachal, male-dominated "civilization" did.
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Old 22-03-2004, 11:00:42   #53
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This girl probably had the same opportunities as everyone else to a) Speak to friends and family b) seak mental help and so ultimately c) Find a job to help he pay her fees.
Sounds to me that she wanted a quick way out of her situation and so serve her right for that.
Yes, this sort of story wouldn't happen if we didn't live in a society where money could buy you sex, but as with any transaction you need a buyer AND a seller, luckily we live in a society where the seller has (almost) all the opportunities to find an alternative career.
From the sounds of things, this girl is a stupid idiot, who probably should speak to her mother more.
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Old 22-03-2004, 11:07:33   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
No, I'm implying that if men and women had equal power in society there wouldn't be any prostitution. It's far from being "the world's oldest profession" as some would have it- it only appeared once hierachal, male-dominated "civilization" did.
...because obviously, there have never been any male escorts or strippers have there?
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Old 22-03-2004, 11:31:25   #55
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Allright, that does it, SB's a chick in disguise. Or he's trying to impress one.
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Old 22-03-2004, 12:07:17   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
...because obviously, there have never been any male escorts or strippers have there?
...and there are more and more as in correletion with the rising financial equality for females. Face it, Scabby, it's not a "male thing", it's a "human thing". Do you really there would be thousands of bids if an 18-year old gay boy put his "heterosexual virginity" up for sale? I can bet diamonds against nuts that he would end up shagging with some 44-year old bussinesswoman or suchlike.
IMHO, stating the she was unable to see the consequences of her decision because of the "evil inherent in the system" is sexist in itself, since that's basically questioning her ability of reasoning because she is female.
You know what's really evil in this case? The stand of her girlfriend. Instead of financially supporting her (which she was able to do according to the previous story) and stoping her to make the wrong move (and AFAIR the gf was a couple of years older, so quite probably more capable of correct judgment), her SO pulled a Madonna on her and allowed her to go ahead for the money and publicity, even if it will scar her mind for the rest of her mind.
Now, that such actions are a result of an extremely egoistic, aempathic, money orientet mentality and hence the capitalist system is apparent for me. But of "patriarchy", I fail to see.
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Old 22-03-2004, 12:20:50   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
...because obviously, there have never been any male escorts or strippers have there?
Oh yes, the liberal "Oooh look, an infitessimally smaller portion of men are also exploited, therefore any feminist argument is bollocks". Yes, some women have more power than some men. As a totality the difference is vast in the other direction though.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:15:29   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
No, I'm implying that if men and women had equal power in society there wouldn't be any prostitution. It's far from being "the world's oldest profession" as some would have it- it only appeared once hierachal, male-dominated "civilization" did.
I have to say Scabby, that I disagree with that at such a fundamental level that it seems pointless to discuss the higher consequences, since IMO the they will be "built on foundations of quicksand".

Prostitution can be a way a disadvantaged person find a way to survive, but the implication that this is the only cause is surely not the case. If it were then for every poor woman "forced" into prostitution a poor man doesn't even have that option (by and large) so presumably dies on the street. I'd suggest that this is not in evidence.

Surely by far the biggest reason for prostituting oneself is the fact that it is a way to get a large financial reward for a small amount of "employment". It tends to be a choice thing. OK if you don't have a lot of money it may prove a more tempting option that if you already do, but it's hardly the driver.

As for when it appeared. I suspect you male dominated slant is more down to personal viewpoint than fact. Prostitution occurs when the opportunity to get rewards for it are available. And you get more female prostitutes purely down to opportunity and market forces. Some men feel compelled to indulge in sex, fewer women feel that way since they tend, as a group, to not separate it from relationships. It's not so much domination, as perceived need to purchase and the opportunity for the other sex to take advantage.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:25:55   #59
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The flaw in your arguement is that it's not about sex as we see it, it's not a shared experience but a systematic subdual of someone who hates you. Like rapists these men get off on the power trip, not the actual sex. Even deeper than that it's part of a system whereby men at all levels from the private to the political dominate women. It's all connected - from domestic violence to the low occurance of women in high societal positions, it's all the patriarchy asserting and maintaining its power.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:27:25   #60
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I've been waiting for years to say this..."Overpriced WHORE!"
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:32:10   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
The flaw in your arguement is that it's not about sex as we see it, it's not a shared experience but a systematic subdual of someone who hates you. Like rapists these men get off on the power trip, not the actual sex. Even deeper than that it's part of a system whereby men at all levels from the private to the political dominate women. It's all connected - from domestic violence to the low occurance of women in high societal positions, it's all the patriarchy asserting and maintaining its power.
How the fuck do you know why they're paying prostitutes? Do you have a fucking survey and stand outside brothels?

"Excuse me, sir, I was wondering whether you enjoyed the sex or did you just get off on the power trip?"

I've never heard quite so much condescending bollocks in my life. It's just as well I don't know anyone else with quite such absurd views on this.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:32:46   #62
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The only prostitute I know is someone in a horribly desperate situation because she is addicted to heroin and crack cocaine. Before her addiction and horrible fall into the sordid realms of prostitution she was actually a pretty nice person with regular morals. If I imagine for a second what it is like to be her I can imagine that she needs help rather than people writing her off as stupid.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:32:48   #63
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But they are not like rapists because they have to pay for it. What does it matter how these men get off, they wouldn't get off on anything if it wasn't on sale.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:35:45   #64
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There are some prostitutes who are prostitutes because they believe there is nothing else they can do. There are also some very shrewd ladies who use prostitution as a way to exploit men (yes, they pimp themselves out, there are no men involved). What do you think of the latter then?
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:37:15   #65
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Well, *End*, since they enjoy having sex with women who don't like them that's pretty much the only conclusion you can take. Do you believe rapists are only after sex too?

The paying is part of the assertion of power. I have money, you don't, therefore I can dominate over you.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:38:56   #66
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It's all alien to me. I don't know why people would want to have sex with a prostitute in the first place. I wouldn't enjoy sticking my cock in someone who didn't really want it there and was looking at her watch waiting for the ordeal to end.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:40:24   #67
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What about some men who reckon their marriage would fall apart of they didn't have close contact with another woman, someone who makes them feel loved (even if it isn't real). Do you believe them?
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:41:28   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
The bleeding hearts may think it's sad that sex is sold as a commodity but the fact is that this girl has exploited this fact for her own financal gain.

Let's just say that again, she has exploited the system for her own financial gain. She may have to live with the consequences on a psychological level, but she has reaped the rewards of this scheme exactly as she planned.
I more or less agree with KG.

I acutally just have scanned this thread 5 minutes long, and could not read all the posts, plus the article is gone too, but I had read the other thread and site when it came up.

There's one thing to be said tho:

NAV SHOULD BE DESIGNING A "POLY THREAD" ICON, TO MARK THIS ONE IN THE FORUM LIST...



On the topic I'd even go furhter:
only reading what reported here, I'd say the guy is a philanthropist!

There are lots worse ways to lose one's virginity, at least she was knowing what she was doing, so this is not in discussion.
The payment and its amount raise much of the shock.
Well, technically speaking... there is a market for such "services". Se didn't just sell "the good", but made an appeal to consider her situation. And she was not even driven by starvation or survival issues, she could have lived off better than thousands of citizens even without completing the studies the way she wanted.
SO, he paid much more than the "bare" product, as a matter of sex he'd have got much more and better bangs for the bucks (if I may say so ), he got maybe moved by her desire to fill her need (and quit not a basic one)....

I can only imagine he gave her all that money because he's a philanthropist.
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:42:17   #69
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I can't believe you're comparing consensual sex with rape. Why not just dig a huge hole in your own argument?

Basically, though, you are making things up to suit your own arguments. Most people enjoy sex - why shouldn't they pay for it if both parties are willing? Are you not accepting that sex is enjoyable outside a relationship? Are one-night stands signs of male oppression as well? What's the difference between that and a guy meeting a girl in a club, buying her a Smirnoff Ice and taking her home?
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Old 22-03-2004, 13:52:18   #70
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The flaw in your argument is that it's not about sex as we see it, it's not a shared experience but a systematic subduel of someone who hates you.

I can't see how you come to that conclusion. I believe you seem to tie enjoyment of sex up with relationships. There would not normally be any hate involved with prostitution. Why should there be ? The buyer is getting sexual relief, the seller financial gain. As in most other financial transactions both parties are getting something out of it.

Like rapists these men get off on the power trip, not the actual sex.

This is an even more confusing claim, but I guess we all have to speak from out own understanding. You seem to have a lot of hate involved in yours.

Even deeper than that it's part of a system whereby men at all levels from the private to the political dominate women. It's all connected - from domestic violence to the low occurrence of women in high societal positions, it's all the patriarchy asserting and maintaining its power

I believe this is not the case, and the present siruation is more of a reflection of personal decisions. Fewer women are in high office mainly because they have more opportunity to choose a different life style. Gender differences means that they inevitably have a bigger stake in pregnancy. which has a knock on effect both on the parental role they are likely to adopt and on their partnership role. This in turn means fewer wish to turn their back on that opportunity and join the rat race to reach the 'exulted positions' you refer to.

It's mainly down to differing roles not dominance. Do you not see that ? There may be the odd individual that fits your description, but it's not the norm in my experience. Is your personal experience different ?

since they enjoy having sex with women who don't like them

Mmm since they don't know the men, is any consideration to like or not like relevent ? Not sure how you then apply it to power and hatred and rape anyway.
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Old 22-03-2004, 14:01:46   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
What about some men who reckon their marriage would fall apart of they didn't have close contact with another woman, someone who makes them feel loved (even if it isn't real). Do you believe them?
Then their marriage should fall apart then surely? If they don't want to be with each other and seek sex elsewhere then that's game over and they should move on.
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Old 22-03-2004, 14:05:50   #72
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Agreed, but this is one example where a man might pay for sex, NOT as a vulgur display of power (as SB was suggesting all bought sex is)
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Old 22-03-2004, 14:16:51   #73
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Old 22-03-2004, 14:24:08   #74
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you should have stopped before the last two words
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i check my hair at the elevator mirror and the highlight of my day when I say hi to a girl who's opposite of the elevator door at my floor. the one i went out with.
after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
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Old 22-03-2004, 16:15:52   #75
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this is why I am against prostitution

but she was most definitely not in the desperate straights that most prostitutes find themselves

and he shuold not be punished anymore than anyother john

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Old 22-03-2004, 16:17:15   #76
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Do you mean any other Jon?
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Old 22-03-2004, 16:25:58   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
You're a misogynist bastard, KH, your kind of thought was banished from more civilized societies long ago. "Whore" indeed.

I'm not talking victimhood (although a case can certainly be made for it), I'm assigning blame. And the blame is entirely and fully with the man and the system he represents whereby a woman's sexuality can be bought for money. It is a sick individual in a sickening system that has sex with a basically unwilling participant purely to exhibit his power, and the power money gives him. I realise in your world it's okay for sex to be purely about power and exploitation (especially if it's of women, a group of people you clearly hold in contempt), but I for one think the bastard should be locked up for a long time.
Oh please...
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Old 22-03-2004, 16:37:21   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Oh she's got every right to sell it - I'm disputing capitalist-patriarchal society's right to buy it.

Anyway, why do you see sex as a commodity ("provided for free" is apparently your view of female sexuality)? Are women just obejcts to you?
The right to buy is given by the seller... I'm bothered by your bringing up 'patriacal society', what Patriacal Society exactly? Fathers First maybe? Old St Gregs Fathers and Sons Assosation? If some bloke wants to buy sex, and some woman wants to sell it, or if some bloke wants to sell sex, and some woman wants to buy it, or permutations thereof, how does that suddenly represent the entire world and every man in it? I'm tired of this use of the term patriacal society, it's meaningless.


By the way, the capitalist converts nature into commodities and commodities into finance, anything stuck at one end of a financial transaction can be considered a commodity.
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Old 22-03-2004, 16:40:41   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by protein
You think a lesbian teenager having painful and uncomfortable sex with a male stranger is a sale of a "good or service they are in possession of" rather than a rather sad and sorded story of a girl that needs psychological help?

Do you regularly sell your ass to men for money?
She claims to be a lesbian and then decides to sell herself to a man for the night. She's obviously not a very good lesbian is she.

If she's so lesbian why didn't she come up with some other brilliant idea... this is so typically Western.... Oooh I'm such a Victim, all the men in the world are trying to Victimise me... even though I told them I'm a lesbian.... Oooooh! Now I'm crying and it's every body elses fault but mine

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Old 22-03-2004, 16:50:30   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
I think she knew exactly what she was doing and she wasnt exactly being kerbcrawled here and in that respect it doesnt matter what gender she is.
I do however think she obviously didnt realise the psychological impact it would have on her. She's 18 and thats still very young and we all make mistakes. she has every right to be upset, and a 44 year old man should be ashamed of himself for taking advantage of her youth and inexperience like this. It does make me sick that our society treats women in such a way that virginity is regarded as a trophy like this. This girl will be fucked up for a long time.
As for Tony Blair, he wont be content until we're all selling our bodies for his new world order.
I agree with everything you said (especially about Tony "The Liar" Blah), but I don't think our society treats virginity as a trophy... I have no particular stance regarding virginity in a partner... apart from that I don't really approve because she'd probably be a weirdo. I think many men feel the same way as I... if some are prepared to pay for virginity- then that's them, I don't think that's a reason to say we're all crazy about virgin trophies or something.
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Old 22-03-2004, 16:59:04   #81
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I'd rather have a girl who had lost her virginity than one who hadn't. In fact i've never had sex with a virgin, so lucky me.
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after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:12:58   #82
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Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
What "system"? The "system" whereby 44-year-old men excercise the power their money has given them expressely to humiliate young women as much as possible? Yeah, nice using of the system, Rosie. You really got that sucker that time.

KH: Saying that prostitution is not a problem of the patriarchy is like saying domestic violence isn't - the fact that there are a few cases in the opposite direction does not mean it's not almost entirely a way for men to boost (keep!) power over women. The number of male prostitute users vastly outnumbers the female.
KER-BOLLOCKS!

First of all, I don't know what the guy specifically wanted- but you can't assume he was anymore interested in humiliating her, then you can that he was interested in being humiliated himself, or water-sports, or nanny-action, or straight missionary, or any of the other 'services' available within the sex industry.
And once more you reffer to this all-enveloping evil empire force called The Patriarchy... get off it man... there is sexism, there are sexist institutions, there are wife beating arsholes- but there is no all powerful cabal of power mad conspiritors known only as The Patriarchy.

As for your theory about men who use prostitutes doing so as part of some kind of plan to keep all women in their place... I think you're nuts if you really believe that. Men who use prostitutes are sad losers who either can't get a sex life in the natural course of social interactions, are in unsatisfactory relationships already where if anything they are engaged in a conspiracy of one to not let their partner know she doesn't satisfy them like that- or are just into paying for sex... none if these reasons have anything to do with keeping the female population somehow 'down' beneath the iron hobbed boot of your power-mad Patriarchy conspiracy movement or whatever the fuck it is.
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:28:58   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Oh she's got every right to sell it - I'm disputing capitalist-patriarchal society's right to buy it.

Anyway, why do you see sex as a commodity ("provided for free" is apparently your view of female sexuality)? Are women just obejcts to you?
Hi Scabby. Can I introduce you to Human Nature? I can see you haven't met before.
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:31:25   #84
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I'm trying to understand Scabby's point of view and I'm struggling. Does the act of prostitution only become reprehensible in a non-matriarchal capitalist society?

Is the problem with the act, or the society it takes place in?
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:32:44   #85
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this is what happens when people think only with their head and not their balls
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i check my hair at the elevator mirror and the highlight of my day when I say hi to a girl who's opposite of the elevator door at my floor. the one i went out with.
after that, it's the same old fucking thing all over again.
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:46:26   #86
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:47:34   #87
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I think this is what happens when you have one of those men who spend all their time trying to impress women by telling everybody how shit other men are, and how evil and powerhungry and insidious The Patriarchy is.
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:48:44   #88
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I believe Scabby is suggesting that if the act is allowed, then the society is already beyond the pale as far as he is conerned.

hope he comes back and continues his line of reasoning. IMO his personal distaste coupled with the belief it causes problems to women is his starting point. But if you don't accept that, then the rest doesn't follow.
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:58:47   #89
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Is the use of male prostitution also illegal in Sweden? Or female use of prostitutes (male or female)?
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Old 22-03-2004, 17:59:24   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary
I believe Scabby is suggesting that if the act is allowed, then the society is already beyond the pale as far as he is conerned.

hope he comes back and continues his line of reasoning. IMO his personal distaste coupled with the belief it causes problems to women is his starting point. But if you don't accept that, then the rest doesn't follow.
In some parts of the world I'd agree, but a spoilt fat Westerner who want's more money to add to her mountains of things and isn't prepared to do illegal-immigrant work for it- is not an oppressed woman, nor a victim of the shadowy Patriarchy organization.
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Old 22-03-2004, 18:06:39   #91
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8.000 children are dying every day for lack of access to water, and they don't get a line in our papers
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Old 22-03-2004, 19:15:12   #92
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but they're not being exploited by the patriarchy, the swedes don't care about them
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Old 22-03-2004, 19:20:51   #93
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Half of them (being boys, and therefore male and potential rapists) are obviously in collusion with The Patriarchy.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:28:44   #94
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Er, where to begin? Can I call the "I don't want to turn into Darkstar" clause?

I think I'll just drop in random comments instead.

Gary, find a prostitute that doesn't hate her clients. "The Happy Whore" is and remains a myth.

If it's only "role distribution", why is it that "male" roles are consistently higher paid and higher valued by society than "female" ones? Why is it that even in female-dominated professions (academics, for instance) it's the men who rise to all the leadership positions? Why are there roles to begin with, and why should people be compelled to conform with them? Why are the "male" roles all the ones that are creative, forceful, leadership-based while the "female" ones are all subservient maintenance/care roles?

Queeg, I think you'll find that a very large part of prostitute users are in fact successful people with healthy sex lives and good careers. Jeffrey Archer is an example that comes to immediate mind. The "sad loser" thing is another myth more or less, and many of those that do do so to take out their anger at womanhood.

"The patrarchy" is just another way of saying all the sexist institutions in the world put together. Or rather, the system of ideas whereby its justified that men dominate over women and over each other in a hierarchal manner. It's no more a conspiracy organisation than "Capitalism" is, it's just an underlying systemic factor whereby, de facto, men have more power than women and are organised hierarchically. Like capitalism it works on many levels and is world-encompassing, but that doesn't make it any more tangiable.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:32:21   #95
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I tihnk you both could do with a healthy dose of Feminist literature. It's the predominant form of analysis today after all together with postcolonialism. Gary since he's obviously so far behind should start with Simone De Bouvoir's classic The Second Sex, Qweeg who's slightly more concious could jump straight into the radical feminism debate of the seventies, then read a bit of two-system theory and some post-socialist feminism.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:33:31   #96
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That sounds riveting.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:34:45   #97
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:35:16   #98
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I think scabby could deal with reading something that doesn't suck ass.
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:40:29   #99
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Says the man who is studying maths.

And the man who did the entirely mind-numbing subject of physics. When will you two become real academics instead of mere scientists?
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Old 22-03-2004, 21:48:49   #100
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When it becomes useful and/or interesting or pays well.
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