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Old 03-02-2004, 17:21:31   #201
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Maybe you were born upside down?
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Old 03-02-2004, 17:41:43   #202
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Given that we were bornin the Southern Hemisphere, I think we both were.
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Old 03-02-2004, 17:45:05   #203
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Old 03-02-2004, 17:47:21   #204
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Originally posted by QtFLW@Work

Here's an anecdote for Mike: Once upon a time, I was much younger than I am now (let's say 50%). I was in high school, and one of my fellow students was a girl who was born 15 hours later than I was. Same day, same year, everything.

Our personalities couldn't have been more different. I was a shy, introverted nerd with bad hair. She was a bright and bubbly outgoing and popular person. She went into (I think) nursing (being a people-oriented profession) wheras I went into IT (though I was briefly considering a detour into accounting).

I can firmly suggest that the only reason we would both be able to look at a generalized Aquarius chart and agree with some of the descriptions is because it's way too general. Even considering the rising sign it's too generalized. It's generalized because myself and my co-student had very little in common, other than our birthdate and the classes we were put in by the school administration.

Maybe my doctor was a big fat man exerting more than 0.02 microNewtons which warped my brain. Or maybe my parents screwed my upbringing up. Who knows?
Easy. You're a changeling. The goblins took the real Qaj.
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Old 03-02-2004, 17:56:03   #205
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"a girl who was born 15 hours later than I was"

In fairness to astrology, that means a different ascendent and a lot of other differences.
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Old 03-02-2004, 18:07:40   #206
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In just 15 hours? In no-fairness to astrology, how are those 15 hours going to affect physical brain development?

Astrology seems like it would be more accurate if it was based on time of conception, since the 9 months prior to that are must more responsible for brain development than a few minutes during which you're born.
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Old 03-02-2004, 20:34:39   #207
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That one site says that Aquarii come in types: introvert and extrovert. Even Angelhorns admits that you're not a slave to the stars.
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Old 03-02-2004, 20:58:09   #208
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On the nature/nurture thing, I'm adopted and have met my biological mother & her family. It is truly amazing how much more I have in common, r.e. basic likes, dislikes and tastes and inclinations than I do with the family that raised me, which seems to have influenced my mannerisms, prejudices, sense of humor, etc.
Seems like genetics has a lot to do with tempermant (basic) than nurture does, though nurture seems to have more to do with how I "react" to things.
It's pretty weird, really.
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Old 03-02-2004, 21:02:50   #209
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Originally posted by DaShi
That one site says that Aquarii come in types: introvert and extrovert. Even Angelhorns admits that you're not a slave to the stars.
Introvert and extrovert? Kinda covers all the bases there, huh? It's like saying Aquarians are either left handed or right handed (conveniently ignoring the no-handed wretches, of course).

I bet Geminis come in three sorts: tall, short, and medium!
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:08:48   #210
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
Can someone physics orientated who can be bothered work out what a gravitational force exerted on me from Jupiter is compared to normal household objects (not anything to do with being against astrology, I'm just really interested) I could work it out myself but I can't be bothered.



If you are "sifting the info" by applying "an objective eye" in science you are doing what you accused all scientists of ie. manipulating data to correspond to your own predjudices.

A computer can sift out duplicate data or work out what data is more important than other data. You just tell the computer the rules that a human would use. If there are logical rules about what's important and what isn't then a computer can do it. If there aren't logical rules then how can a human sort it?
ASTROLOGERS DO NOT BELIEVE THE PLANETS EXERT A PULL ON US AND THEREFORE ASTROLOGY WORKS- SEE HOW SCIENTISTS NEVER BOTHER TO RESEARCH BEFORE THEY ARGUE?

SAYING A COMPUTER CAN COMPOSE A CHART, IS LIKE SAYING IF YOU GIVE A COMPUTER A BUNCH OF WORDS, IT CAN WRITE YOU A MEANINGFUL POEM. COMPUTERS DO NOT EVALUATE, HUMANS DO. REMEMBER WHEN I SAID IT WAS AN ART?

LAZY ARGUMENTS MIKE
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:16:33   #211
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Originally posted by protein
I guess the way that we prove it is to have some people born at roughly the same time in roughly the same place with a different upbringing and genetics.

Nills Laagerback was born a few hours apart from me.

Let the tests begin.
ANY ASTROLOGER WILL TELL YOU THAT A MINUTE CAN MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE TO A CHART, SINCE IDENTICAL TWINS CAN BE BORN UNDER DIFFERENT SUN ASCENDANT OR MOON SIGNS. ASTROLOGERS ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE FREE WILL AS I KEEP REPEATING, AND SO THEY BELIEVE YOUR BIRTH CHART REPRESENTS PREDISPOSITION, RATHER THAN ABSOLUTIST PRESCRIPTION.

AGAIN- LAZY ARGUMENT, DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE YOU ARGUE.
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:22:07   #212
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
That genetics and environment are what effect personality. That's too unspecific though.

Incidently your theory doesn't discount astrology. You could argue that astrology fits into that because the planets do exert a force on people and that could have an effect.

The reason Astrology isn't scientific is because it doesn't do any of these tests and the best experimental evidence we have shows that astrological personality models do not seem to represent people any more accurately than they can apply to someone else with a different birth date/time. The best scientifically produced evidence so far is that it is something we can discount in further understanding the way human personality develops. Theories are proved wrong all the time though.
SCIENTISTS DID A TEST WHERE THEY CREATED A GENERIC PERSONALITY DESCRIPTION AND GAVE IT TO A BUCH OF PEOPLE WHO ALL SAID 'THAT IS TRUE! I DO LIKE EATING FOOD!', HENCE TONS OF PEOPLE LAUGH AT ASTROLOGY. BUT ASK YOURSELF IF THAT TEST WAS NOT UNFAIRLY BIASED: IF YOU DELIBERATELY CREATE A GENERIC DESCRIPTION, OF COURS LOADS OF PEOPLE WILL SAY ITS THEM TO A TEE. ASTROLOGY DOESNT PRODUCE GENERIC REPORTS IF DONE PROPERLY SO ITS HARD TO SEE ANY FAIR COMPARISON, AND HAD YOU GIVEN THESE PEOPLE A REPORT SAYING 'YOU LIVE ON CRAB MEAT AND YOUR MOTHER IS A BOTANIST' MOST PEOPLE WOULD HAVE SAID NO. ALL THAT TEST PROVES IS THE FLAWED LOGIC OF THE PEOPLE WHO DEVISED IT
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:23:25   #213
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:23:27   #214
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I THINK ASTRO STEMS FROM THE TIME OF BIRTH BECAUSE THAT IS CONSIDERED TO BE THE TIME THAT YOU ARE TRULY A PERSON IN YOUR OWN RIGHT, IE NO LONGER PART OF SOMEONE ELSE'S BODY AND DEPENDANT ON THEM.
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:24:02   #215
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:35:08   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by QtFLW@Work
Apparently I'm Aquarius with Taurus rising, but it's still a load of dog's bollocks.






Sorry, just seeing science and astrology in the same sentence does that to me.



Here's an anecdote for Mike: Once upon a time, I was much younger than I am now (let's say 50%). I was in high school, and one of my fellow students was a girl who was born 15 hours later than I was. Same day, same year, everything.

Our personalities couldn't have been more different. I was a shy, introverted nerd with bad hair. She was a bright and bubbly outgoing and popular person. She went into (I think) nursing (being a people-oriented profession) wheras I went into IT (though I was briefly considering a detour into accounting).

I can firmly suggest that the only reason we would both be able to look at a generalized Aquarius chart and agree with some of the descriptions is because it's way too general. Even considering the rising sign it's too generalized. It's generalized because myself and my co-student had very little in common, other than our birthdate and the classes we were put in by the school administration.

Maybe my doctor was a big fat man exerting more than 0.02 microNewtons which warped my brain. Or maybe my parents screwed my upbringing up. Who knows?

once again, stupid kid at the back isn't listening. 15 hours on a birth chart (not to mention place of birth) change the entire chart critically. Your Moon, Mercury, Rising and Midheaven, Nodes, Element, and Modality could all have been changed by this, not to mention all the aspects of the chart, and therefore the entire interpretation. Probably the only reason you could both look at an Aquarius description and both recognise yourselves in it , is because its the only thing you had in common.

All I can recommened if you people truly want to see if astrology works, is to get the book I recommended (its the standard starting point and very reputable) and learn about it.

You can sit there and criticise all you want, but you're just exposing your own prejudice, because none of you appear to know jack shit about how astrology is actually done.

Good luck with that.

I'm off to criticise some rocket scientists now, or maybe some surgeons because I don't understand how their methods work
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:37:44   #217
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sorry spartak, i was in a caps kinda mood
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:39:46   #218
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Thank you. I can hear a bit better now... (you are still allowed to puntuate!)
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:43:08   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by QtFLW@Work
In just 15 hours? In no-fairness to astrology, how are those 15 hours going to affect physical brain development?

Astrology seems like it would be more accurate if it was based on time of conception, since the 9 months prior to that are must more responsible for brain development than a few minutes during which you're born.
You're obviously determined not to be even remotely concerned with what astrology actually claims, and what you ASSUME it claims. Thats rather like me saying 'Well Delia, you can tell me you're going to boil an egg, but I believe you are frying it'
I have never heard an astrologer associate horoscopes with brain development
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:44:23   #220
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So it's not about gravity exerting a force? What exactly is astrology then? We've come so far and had absolutely no answer.
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:46:35   #221
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Originally posted by DaShi
That one site says that Aquarii come in types: introvert and extrovert. Even Angelhorns admits that you're not a slave to the stars.
I don't know which website this refers to, but most internet astro information is dubious to say the least- most sites are run by amateurs, or are a bit of a fun look at astrology. Its best to see these as karaoke, compared to true astrology's opera. Most professional astrologers don't have a website, and those who do are quick to say its the lighter side of astrology.
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:50:39   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns

I have never heard an astrologer associate horoscopes with brain development
Personality traits are brain functions.

Surely the actual second and location of your birth is the important factor in astrology. What I want to know is how the location and time you are born in combination with the position of the stars affects your personality and therefore brain chemistry and structure.
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:52:09   #223
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Originally posted by protein
So it's not about gravity exerting a force? What exactly is astrology then? We've come so far and had absolutely no answer.
I don't think any astrologer claims to know HOW exactly it works- probably because all the twat scientists won't get their heads out of their arses, and get over the 'I think I know everything about astrology' phase to bother and actually help them find out. But when you consider that certain things always happen at certain times of year, and most of life moves in provable and obvious cycles, I don't think its too big a leap to say that humans do too (on one level, because obviously we can then use our intelligence to over ride it if we want to). I have a book about this very topic, but I haven't read it yet!
I'm not sure why gravity started to come into it, I think it was Mike who brought that up in error.
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:53:34   #224
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That is normally the answer given by astrologers. "the moon moves the tides and we are mostly water" etc.
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Old 03-02-2004, 23:59:37   #225
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Originally posted by protein
Personality traits are brain functions.

Surely the actual second and location of your birth is the important factor in astrology. What I want to know is how the location and time you are born in combination with the position of the stars affects your personality and therefore brain chemistry and structure.
Says you. Lots of people believe in souls. If astrologers could get things down to the second, I'm sure they would, but its impossible to get that degree of accuracy, and in fairness, when new evidence is discovered, astrologers debate it and integrate it. Chiron theories are the latest thing. I'm not so hot on this particular area of astrolgy tho, so can't help out much, I just know that as new planets are discovered etc, astrologers add them in.
Incidentally, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are 'generational planets' because they only move position (in astrological terms) about once a generation, so they are used to look at the generation rather than the individual, suggesting a lesser influence with distance in one sense. Its not quite that simple tho.
Also- the second of birth wouldnt change the chart that much based on how we can measure personality now. It may do if we made a move forward with astrology, but its a fairly crude tool in the sense that we can't just run it through a computer. Great if we could.
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:03:05   #226
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Originally posted by protein
That is normally the answer given by astrologers. "the moon moves the tides and we are mostly water" etc.
Well I think what they actually say is that we know the moon influences behaviour, or at least we observe changes in behaviour concurrent with the moon's activity. ie submissions to loony bins increase.

Again I can't help you much with that- its something I'd like to know more about too. I'm not the poster girl for astrology unfortunately.
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:04:46   #227
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So to sum up:

Personality is nothing to do with your brain chemistry or structure, it is nothing to do with your upbringing or your genes it is do do with how the stars metaphysically affect your soul.

Absolute fucking bollocks.
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:05:24   #228
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my personal theory is that the stars just act as signposts to what is happening in the cosmos. Kind of like reading a map. Unfortunately we dont have a better map yet which is why astrology isnt perfect.
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:06:55   #229
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Originally posted by protein
So to sum up:

Personality is nothing to do with your brain chemistry or structure, it is nothing to do with your upbringing or your genes it is do do with how the stars metaphysically affect your soul.

Absolute fucking bollocks.
I said before that astrologers believe that upbringing, genes etc all affect you and your development. I dont think thats really under debate
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:07:56   #230
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We can see it isn't perfect. It is a load of vague and often opposing statements that cover all bases.
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:10:46   #231
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I said before that astrologers believe that upbringing, genes etc all affect you and your development. I dont think thats really under debate
So which part of your personality does it affect? What if you have a history of violence and gregariousness in the family but your stars say you are a timid and calm person. Which is going to win?
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:16:45   #232
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Not at all, but then having never bothered to find out about even its basic principles, how would you know that?
This kind of conversation really bores me because its like arguing with someone who insists that black is white simply to annoy. I don't sit around arguing about whether Einstein's theories were bollocks because I've never studied them, and lets face it, a good many of those are unprovable from the little I do know. Its arrogance to claim you know something is fake or generalised or untrue, when you can't even be arsed to find out about it first, even if that means ditching your assumptions first.

I'm not even that into astrology any more, what surprises me is how utterly irrational a load of supposed rationalists can be just so they can dismiss something because it doesnt fit their world view
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:18:06   #233
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So which part of your personality does it affect? What if you have a history of violence and gregariousness in the family but your stars say you are a timid and calm person. Which is going to win?
No astrologer would ever say anyone was timid and calm. End of. Just go and get a book and come back to me in a year. This is tedious
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Old 04-02-2004, 00:20:36   #234
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Originally posted by Angelhorns
once again, stupid kid at the back isn't listening.
Brave of you to admit that


Quote:
Your Moon, Mercury, Rising and Midheaven, Nodes, Element, and Modality could all have been changed by this, not to mention all the aspects of the chart, and therefore the entire interpretation. Probably the only reason you could both look at an Aquarius description and both recognise yourselves in it , is because its the only thing you had in common.
Okay, so all these things you mention - HOW do they influence personality? Or affect predispositions? You know, the one thing I could never reconcile with religion (well, one of them) was that people claim God is omniscient BUT you have free will. They're total opposites, and no-one has ever specified how to marry the two so that they don't contradict. Never. At least, not without resorting to vague generalities. And thus it is with astrology. If no-one can say how, or why, it's not scientific or credible or plausible.


Quote:
All I can recommened if you people truly want to see if astrology works, is to get the book I recommended (its the standard starting point and very reputable) and learn about it.
But that would be like me going out and buying the Bible. If I did that with everything that zealots of one flavour or another recommended to me, I'd be no wiser and a lot poorer.

Anyhow, like I aid, I'm married to some one who can do the astrology thing (but doesn't necessarily believe in it). I even have a software package that calculates all the important planetary positions with minutes and arcs and crap. It's on my PC right now, and once used it to calculate the chart down to hour and minute, including latitude and longitude. LoC interpreted it for me Even getting my info. direct from "the source" I maintain that it's still bogus.

Quote:
You can sit there and criticise all you want, but you're just exposing your own prejudice, because none of you appear to know jack shit about how astrology is actually done.
I believe that, yes, I am qualified to criticize. Or would you prefer that the only people who can are those who took (perhaps wasted?) the time getting to know all the relevant details and procedures and became a Qualified Astrologer? And doesn't that defeat the purpose? You have been assimilated!!


Quote:
I'm off to criticise some rocket scientists now, or maybe some surgeons because I don't understand how their methods work
By your argument, you can't do that since you're not a rocket scientist (the point you were trying to get across, I'll assume). But I will pretty safely say you can't launch a wet firework.


Quote:
I don't think any astrologer claims to know HOW exactly it works- probably because all the twat scientists won't get their heads out of their arses, and get over the 'I think I know everything about astrology' phase to bother and actually help them find out. But when you consider that certain things always happen at certain times of year, and most of life moves in provable and obvious cycles, I don't think its too big a leap to say that humans do too (on one level, because obviously we can then use our intelligence to over ride it if we want to).
Examples of things that happen at the same time every year please.

I'll give you one for free - every full moon people go crazy. Just ask any hospital. There are plenty of non-astrological explanations for that. And I'm sure there would be for any examples you care to share with us.


re: Brain function = personality vs. souls, if I were to remove part of (say) your brain commonly associated with what neuroscientists call the areas responsible for personality, I can guarantee you your personality would change, soul notwithstanding. Also, as there is, once again, no evidence that a soul exists, it's just wishful thinking. More power to you if you want to believe that, but please, don't call it truth or science. It's belief.


Angelhorns, I'm not trying to be combative to annoy you , but I get a real bug up my butt when someone mislabels their pet belief as scientific when it shares nothing in common with rigorous scientific procedures.

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Old 04-02-2004, 00:57:22   #235
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every full moon people go crazy. Just ask any hospital.
That was shown to be an old wives tale in a study. People in hospitals believe it but when you look at the amount of activity in a hospital during full moon it is no different.
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Old 04-02-2004, 01:06:36   #236
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Originally posted by Angelhorns
Not at all, but then having never bothered to find out about even its basic principles, how would you know that?
This kind of conversation really bores me because its like arguing with someone who insists that black is white simply to annoy. I don't sit around arguing about whether Einstein's theories were bollocks because I've never studied them, and lets face it, a good many of those are unprovable from the little I do know. Its arrogance to claim you know something is fake or generalised or untrue, when you can't even be arsed to find out about it first, even if that means ditching your assumptions first.

I'm not even that into astrology any more, what surprises me is how utterly irrational a load of supposed rationalists can be just so they can dismiss something because it doesnt fit their world view
It's quite infuriating for me too. Everytime we ask a question you will give a vague answer which we will try and delve into and then you will say we are barking up the wrong tree.

The only answer so far is that your soul is governed by stars. In what way, how and any proof is still to be established.

We have seen no readings that are accurate - which you will put down to poor quality readings

We have no explaination as to how it is supposed to work - to which you answer "it is unexplainable"

You will say that none of us understand the basic principals when both you and astrologers don't understand them either.

So basically believe in something that doesn't work, has no explaination and is fatally flawed yet you think our view of the world is distorted somehow.
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Old 04-02-2004, 01:07:03   #237
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Horns:

The problem you have with this part of the arguement is that even if a casual (i.e statistical) relationship can be shown to work (like 51% of people match up with an in-depth report that DOES make a lot of definite claims), you are still left trying to explain the actual physical mechanism that causes this.

Not merely 'does astrology work' but 'why does astrology work'.

A lot of what you've said in this thread about astrology seems to be a denial of astrology anyway. If it has nothing to do with stars and planets and the sun, and astrologers are happy with nature/nuture explaining people's traits, what exactly is left?
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Old 04-02-2004, 02:16:23   #238
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Quote:
Originally posted by protein
It's quite infuriating for me too. Everytime we ask a question you will give a vague answer which we will try and delve into and then you will say we are barking up the wrong tree.

I've been far from vague, but again without you actually bothering to try and learn anything yourself, I'm stopping short of actually giving lessons here, its not my responsibility to see that you understand what you argue about, or at least understand the prevailing methodology. If you ask someone what Hamlet is about, they don't recite the book for you.

The only answer so far is that your soul is governed by stars. In what way, how and any proof is still to be established.

Please show me the thread where I said that.

We have seen no readings that are accurate - which you will put down to poor quality readings

You have as far as I can tell been looking at internet sites that give generalised 'pop' astrology readings, something I've already said bears little relation to proper astrology. A bit like the way table football bears little resemblance to the beautiful game

We have no explaination as to how it is supposed to work - to which you answer "it is unexplainable"

I said I can't explain it, but then I'm not a mouthpiece for all astrologers

You will say that none of us understand the basic principals when both you and astrologers don't understand them either.

Er..hang on, I understand them perfectly well and what they are supposed to be used for. I can cast a chart and interpret it at least to an intermediate level. I am aware there is more to it than I've studied, but thats not the same thing as not knowing how it works. I know how to use my computer but I'm buggered if I know how it works.

So basically believe in something that doesn't work, has no explaination and is fatally flawed yet you think our view of the world is distorted somehow.

I think you're lazy in your arguments, utterly lazy in your research, and like most rationalists I've met, like to criticise when you don't understand, and demand perfection, when very often those standards are not applied to the disciplines you uphold. Such as medicine, and science. If you accept them, you must be prepared to accept false alleys, limited understanding and failures of explanation, yet not in astrology. Astrology must have all the answers, and it must have them in a format that suits someone who isn't even prepared to pick up a book and read about it.

Good drummer though.

I believe astrology works in some capacity, Einstein believed the universe was shaped like a pretzel. He also believed in God. Go figure.
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Old 04-02-2004, 02:18:58   #239
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Quote:
Originally posted by protein
That was shown to be an old wives tale in a study. People in hospitals believe it but when you look at the amount of activity in a hospital during full moon it is no different.
'a study'

and you accuse me of vagueness. You can prove anything with a study, we know from history and experience that the loony/moon thing is true. It also affects women's cycles and blood flow during operations.
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:11:08   #240
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shining1
Entirely aside from the question of why the brain should form connections between neurons at the moment of birth, based on minute gravitational influences...?

Well, your brain form over a 9 month period (and continues afterward). But, since all the heavenly bodies move at a predictable rate, etc etc etc

Now, why, where, when, and how you come into the world... your first really big hit on your brain for input is going to be birth. Most of your sensory input isn't exactly roaring along, is it? You've had a nice, cosy existance until then. You can sense sound, and touch, temperature, and taste. But so far, the only thing that has changed is sound.

The whole birth experience, though, changes that. Major stimulus, major brain activity results. And it's been shown that stimulated brains develop faster...

Now, environmentally speaking, you've got half the sky blocked out by the Earth. So you may or may not be getting an extra photon in some wavelength or whatever.
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:28:08   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
If you are "sifting the info" by applying "an objective eye" in science you are doing what you accused all scientists of ie. manipulating data to correspond to your own predjudices.

A computer can sift out duplicate data or work out what data is more important than other data. You just tell the computer the rules that a human would use. If there are logical rules about what's important and what isn't then a computer can do it. If there aren't logical rules then how can a human sort it?
That, Mikey, is what to pay attention to.

It's the same with all the "predictive arts" that requires interpretation. You and I can sit down at a table, and I can use a tarot deck to do a seriously accurate read on you. Most, if not all, of that is my brain sorting in what it thinks is approriate or likely. Since we have some significant cultural differences, I probably wouldn't read you as accurate as, say, Walrus or JSorEnd.

Anything that requires significant human interpretation over the data (sorting the signal out of the majority noise) is considered a con by most doubting Thomases.

If it works, and it's purely "fine tuning" the data, then a computer can indeed do a charting and it should be fairly accurate. If it cannot, either the software is bad, or astrology isn't anything more then "reading" a person.
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:33:51   #242
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Quote:
Originally posted by protein
That is normally the answer given by astrologers. "the moon moves the tides and we are mostly water" etc.
Protein, there are several studies showing that the moon affects people. Last I read, both through a physical aspect (as it affects you if you never go out doors) and by light visibility ("large" full moons tend to have a slightly positive mental effect on people). Next online study I see on it, I'll post a link, if I remember this place.

Now, whether there is any real effect because Jupiter is ascendant, now that hasn't been studied so far. Too much like astrology.
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:37:18   #243
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Quote:
Originally posted by protein
We can see it isn't perfect. It is a load of vague and often opposing statements that cover all bases.
@protein

That's why it has to be "interpreted".
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:45:57   #244
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Quote:
Originally posted by protein
That was shown to be an old wives tale in a study. People in hospitals believe it but when you look at the amount of activity in a hospital during full moon it is no different.
Actually, it is true that at most full moon, most police departments get more calls.

It is also true that at most full moons, you spikes of activity in trouble call centers for trouble with computer equipment. Astrologically, that shouldn't happen, as Mercury and Gemini are the aspects that are presumed to rule computers, IIRC.

Now, the computer equipment related matter may just be the same thing at it's core as the police calls... more people are active then usual. More people awake/active on nights with "full" moons, and therefore more trouble. I am leaning to this being the findings in the latest round of "Lunar" influence studies.

Now, you do not get more commitments to mental institutions, but being "committed" happens during the day. You just get sent off for observation at night.

There is a rise in suicides, IIRC, according to the moon cycle. But its only a slight rise at new moon. Again, the "leanings" I've read in the "Lunacy" studies is that its simply darker, and therefore there is a minor psychological effect on a portion of people out there.
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Old 04-02-2004, 07:57:21   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
I'm not even that into astrology any more, what surprises me is how utterly irrational a load of supposed rationalists can be just so they can dismiss something because it doesnt fit their world view
Be glad most of them aren't "scientist". The only people as closed minded as most scientists are the recently reborn fundamentalists, from my life experiences.

Now, we can and are testing Einstien, you know. Scientifically speaking, you come up with a theory, and you test it. If a theory predicts that time slows down the faster you go, then you derive an experiment to test if what is observed matches the theory. Such as, 2 extremely accurate (atomic) clocks are made. One is left on the ground. Another is put into something that goes really fast... like a space vehicle. The very fast vehicle is made to speed along for a significant time span. The clock in the fast travelling vehicle is then checked for its time and compared to your "control" clock. If it is behind, you have observed a test that fits with your theory. One data point/observation, however doesn't "prove" a theory, so more test get down... or the same tests repeated. Until the scientific community feels confident in that theory (for a time, at least).
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:15:37   #246
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BTW, I was going to post this earlier, but CG had its glitch...

Astrology *should* be a favorite of this board. In Astrology, Uranus is the keeper and ruler of all knowledge. People that can plug into Uranus are plugged into the Great Library of All Knowledge and *know things* they have never studied. This is actually known as pulling knowledge out of Uranus (although more properly speaking, its having it served to them from Uranus).





Aspect wise, AIR, Uranus is generally associated with Aquarius. Aquari tend to be very in tune with Uranus, and therefore tend to have more knowledge of things then non-Aquari. (This means, they are the biggest know-it-all of all signs, and that they tend to think they know things that they don't, but do occasionally manage to come up with the right answer or close to the right answer when they really don't have enough data.)
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:27:53   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
'a study'

and you accuse me of vagueness. You can prove anything with a study, we know from history and experience that the loony/moon thing is true. It also affects women's cycles and blood flow during operations.
Studies are data collection and observations. That is part of the scientific method. That's the criteria that the "prove it" side of this debate are using... show us some data points/examples of how astrology isn't just a con of reading people or dumping out so much "aspects means X,Y,Z" that something of that scattershot statement is going to apply.

I don't recall any actual studies in "Lunar influence" turning up with it affecting a woman's menstrual cycle (other then mental effects on a woman and that affecting her), and I only recall one study that said actual blood flow was being affected by the moon... and the two counter studies afterward that found no change.

One of the scientific method's key point is repeatibility. If you get a different result then I get when we run the same test, then the theory is wrong, or at least in need of refining, or the experiment's parameters need to more strigently defined.
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:30:03   #248
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You know, I've always wondered... what are astrology buffs going to do when people start living on the moon? Mars? Outside our solar system?
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:34:29   #249
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And I'm the guy that said the light emitted by/reflected from or the gravity influence... After all, Pluto's light is not observable from Terra to the naked eye, but it's charted in modern astronomy. Chiron and the other large asteroids generally don't shine enough to be visible wandering stars either. Since these objects "affect" things, it seems logical to me that if it's not the photons, maybe it's the gravity.
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:38:45   #250
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That's it, let's tar, feather, quarter and ban that longwinded twat.
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