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Old 03-02-2004, 01:50:43   #151
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I don't have time to go into this now, and bear in mind I am only an amateur astrologer and there is loads more to it than I am capable of but:

Essentially natal astrology (birth charts) are cast for an individual so that we might see what traits that individual is predisposed to. There are other types of astrology that fulfil different functions but this is a good place to start.
In effect you have a Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, Jupiter, Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto sign. The other major thing we look for is the Rising or Ascendant sign. Your sun sign is considered in Western astrology to be the sign that describes your inner values. I'm a Sagittarius, and therefore freedom, intellectual/spiritual pursuit and travel are traditional associations. However the other planetary signs also have meanings of their own. Before you all go on about random characteristics, no, they are actually quite specific. For instance, Venus is your 'love sign' and reflects your relationship style, your values about love etc. I have Venus in Libra but its on the cusp of Scorpio so I am idealistic and romantic seeking perfection on the one hand, but am influenced by jealousy, mysteriousness etc. Venus also tends to govern taste, so I sway between pretty feminine and tasteful clothes, and overtly sexual/gothic gestures.
Now- your Ascendant tends to reflect the way others see you, and often, your outward appearance. People with Leo rising, more ofte than not have an obsession with their hair for instance.
Your moon sign, reflects your emotional outlook, and indeed the Romans referred to moon signs in the way we use sun signs. A very basic look at most people's character would comprise Sun Moon and Asc.
Ok, well now we have your signs, we put them in achart (the wheel) and depending on how close/far they are from each other, we get 'aspects'. This is something on which I know a very basic level of info, but there are different schools that use different systems here. The information becomes more detailed at this stage, and we can take it a step further by 'progressing' the chart to look at the picture as it stands today, to gain a more fully integrated character (the signs move around and mature).
Now- thats an extremely basic explanation of astrology, but the reason you won't get a good reading from a computer, is that a computer will just churn out every aspect, trine, square, conjunction etc in the chart. You can get good programs to do this, but you still need to sift the info, by which I mean apply an objective eye. Certain aspects are more powerful than others, certain characteristics will come up repeatedly, certain planets or houses (the place where planets sit on the wheel which also have their own theme) will be strong or weak, etc. An astrologer looks at this and compiles a profile. An amateur like me can do a pretty good one. A professional astrologer (you can make sure you get a decent one by checking with the Astrological society) wll be able to give you a detailed, accurate report with more than a level of coincidence about it. I've had one done that even went into details of my relationships with my parents, which was scarily true.
Now, the only way to truly understand astrology is to study it because its very complex, but I hope thats given some idea. A good book to start with is Parker's Astrology, and there are books about the 'science' of astrology.
Personally I believe there is a lot of truth in astrology, but because its interpretive and humans have free will (good astrologers will advise you to work with your personality, and develop in places you are lacking, eg I have no earth signs so I am impractical) it will never be 100%. I don't believe astrology is a science, its an art, like painting a picture- you assemble the paints you need, and you assimilate them into a representation of a person. You will also find that astrologers all have different personalities and this shows in their work- Jonathan Cainer (who is very good) is very upbeat and positive, whereas Marjorie Orr is a bit bleak.
Astrology accepts new astronomical discoveries and when new planets are found, we look at what significance they have in the world at the time of discovery. It helps us sharpen the picture.
As for 'prediction' astrology never claims to predict exact events ie 9/11, but it can predict trends and opportunities, and in fact, many astrologers make predictions based on a blend of their current knowledge and what the astro tells them which is where people get confused. Marjorie Orr runs a reasonable politial section on her page. I have never explored that branch of astro tho so I cant explain it to you.

Back to Sun signs- now some people will still say 'but I'm not a typical Aquarius' or whatever. Like with me- Sag is meant to be sporty, and I am far from, but this is usually where something stronger in the chart has forced that trait down. Some people may be an Aquarius, but have everything else in their chart under signs that beat the Aquarian traits out so to speak. Again this can all be seen in the chart.
I could go on all night, but thats enough info I think. The methods of astro are similar to science in that you gather evidence and interpret it. Personally I believe that astrology works like the weather: Summer always follows spring, and Capricorn always follows Sagittarius. I also believe that just because we don't know why something works, or how something is caused, doesnt make it untrue. Scientists, in my experience, are the least scientific in their approach to criticising or understanding astro. Its far more complex than I can possibly explain, and professional qualifications take as long as a degree, but you get the idea now at least.

Horns

PS- this essay was your fault Laz
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Old 03-02-2004, 02:00:14   #152
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Yeah when I wrote the check I forgot that I had transfered the balance to my savings account pps:
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Old 03-02-2004, 07:19:48   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
An astrologer looks at this and compiles a profile. An amateur like me can do a pretty good one.
If you have time, how about an experiment? I'll give you my exact time and place of birth, and you draw up a horoscope. I'll tell you what fits and what doesn't.
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:06:31   #154
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Can someone physics orientated who can be bothered work out what a gravitational force exerted on me from Jupiter is compared to normal household objects (not anything to do with being against astrology, I'm just really interested) I could work it out myself but I can't be bothered.

Quote:
Now- thats an extremely basic explanation of astrology, but the reason you won't get a good reading from a computer, is that a computer will just churn out every aspect, trine, square, conjunction etc in the chart. You can get good programs to do this, but you still need to sift the info, by which I mean apply an objective eye.
If you are "sifting the info" by applying "an objective eye" in science you are doing what you accused all scientists of ie. manipulating data to correspond to your own predjudices.

A computer can sift out duplicate data or work out what data is more important than other data. You just tell the computer the rules that a human would use. If there are logical rules about what's important and what isn't then a computer can do it. If there aren't logical rules then how can a human sort it?
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:16:26   #155
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I calculate the gravitational force of Jupiter on a 100kg human on Earth to be 36.6N when Jupiter is closest to Earth. It is 13.5N when the two planets are farthest apart from each other, which is almost the same as the gravitational attraction between a 2-tonne truck and a 100kg human standing 1 mm away from it (13.35N; OK, that's a 2-tonne singularity and a 100-kg singularity standing 1 mm away from it... but who's counting?).

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Old 03-02-2004, 09:31:46   #156
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The gravitational force between a 100kg human and a 1 kg kettle across a 5m wide kitchen is 2.67×10^(-10)N.

http://tinyurl.com/2rmnq

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Old 03-02-2004, 09:38:22   #157
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:41:12   #158
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Interesting! Thanks SP. I was thinking that although it goes by inverse of distance squared but only proportionally to mass the distance would be more important but Jupiter is fucking big.

What about a human and a star (say if Alpha Centauri was a single star)...
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:56:17   #159
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Entirely aside from the question of why the brain should form connections between neurons at the moment of birth, based on minute gravitational influences...?
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:57:47   #160
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Forget that, I'm just interested in the forces.
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Old 03-02-2004, 09:58:36   #161
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The approximate gravitational force between a human on Earth and Alpha Centauri A and B (massed at 2 solar masses and 4.36 light years away) is 6.71 × 10^(-39) Newtons. For comparison, the weight of an electron at sea level is 8.93 × 10^(-30) Newtons.

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Old 03-02-2004, 10:00:20   #162
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Excellent work SP.

So, Jupiter has more effect than a juggernaut at 1mm but the closest star has a billion times less effect than the weight of an electron.
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Old 03-02-2004, 10:16:36   #163
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And finally, the gravitational force between a human and the Andromeda galaxy is about a billion billion billion times the force between a human and Alpha Centauri A & B (it's on the order of 10^(-11) N).

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Old 03-02-2004, 11:09:48   #164
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Think about all the Scorpios you know. They're all unhinged and evil, aren't they?

QED.
Yes I am!
...do you doubt?
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:10:36   #165
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So the Andromeda galaxy has more effect on us than the nearest star? That's hard to believe.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:14:04   #166
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Ooh, ooh, ooh what am I supposed to do
She seemed a nice girl but she is one too
What's going on? I can't understand it
Something went wrong - I'm a starsign magnet
I try to hide it but they just keep coming
Bad bitching babes getting my guitar strumming
Every single time I'm getting sucked in
Those Scorpio girls always seem to win

Scorpiorpiorpio Scorpio girls
Scorpiorpiorpios rocking my world
Scorpiorpiorpios every time for the
Scorpio girls I'm a hungry enzyme

Thrice bitten thrice shy but I'm every time a sucker
See a Scorpio
She's seductive coz she's cool like a dipper
You get hot like a roskie and you're actin like a gripper
Better chill out like monkey in the tree
Because she will take your fins and throw you back in the sea
Ain't a love song but I just got to sing it
Scorpio girl, sting it baby sting it

Scorpiorpiorpio Scorpio girls
Scorpiorpiorpios rocking my world
Scorpiorpiorpios every time for the
Scorpio girls I'm a hungry enzyme

They're bad, they're glad they're bad
Those gals I had, they made me sad so mad
Acting like a fool, crazy bout them but they're cool, cool, cool
Spunky like a spunka, she's got a lot of spunk
Think you want some of that Scorpio funk
I do too, what am I supposed to do
She seemed a nice girl but she is one too
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:16:58   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
So the Andromeda galaxy has more effect on us than the nearest star? That's hard to believe.
It has at least 150 billion times the mass (up to 600 billion times, if you include dark matter), and is only 0.5 million times as far away.

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Old 03-02-2004, 11:18:29   #168
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Yeah, I just looked it up it's only 600,000 parsecs away. Well there you go.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:21:18   #169
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I'll name my daughter Andromeda
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:24:46   #170
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I could write a song about her called the 600,000 parsecs away girl. (in joke for Tizzy).
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:26:25   #171
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:28:16   #172
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I bet I could do the Kessel run in 600,000 parsecs. On a good light-day.

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Old 03-02-2004, 11:30:14   #173
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What are you a space slug?
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:30:42   #174
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So if you were born in a building next to a multi story car park holding hundreds of massive trucks on one side and an enormous sky scraper on the other side, is that taken into account?

I'm not much of an astrologer or a physicist but wouldn't the doctor have more of a gravitational effect at the moment of birth than distant stars?
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:31:34   #175
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That's kind of what we were working out. Jupiter has more effect on you than the doctor. The stars have less.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:33:09   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
What are you a space slug?
I could do it faster if I had some kind of spaceship to help me out.

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Old 03-02-2004, 11:33:56   #177
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The doctor exerts about 0.02 microNewtons.

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Old 03-02-2004, 11:34:00   #178
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That's what you say to all the girls.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:34:53   #179
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What girls?

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Old 03-02-2004, 11:35:04   #180
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Damn, x-post but it makes it funnier.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:36:55   #181
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So the evidence so far for astrology is:

gravity has an effect on your body and forming brain at the moment of your birth. Gravity will give you personality traits and map your destiny.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:39:52   #182
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But then it depends on the orientation of the baby's brain relative to the position of the planets, which makes it completely indefinite.

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Old 03-02-2004, 11:40:41   #183
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I'm not sure if it's really supposed to have anything to do with Gravity but in any case that's a theory not evidence.

Evidence of that theory would be experiments into gravity influencing brain development and testing predictions (not of the future, scientific predictions as in "if this is true this should follow") to see if they fit with your theory.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:46:50   #184
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What does the moment of you passing through your mother's vagina have to do with the formation of your personality? The brain is there before and after. Your brain doesn't suddenly get fixed at the moment of your birth.

The difference between inside and outside is that you start receiving a whole lot more sensory information and oxygen. I am convinced that all these sights, sounds and smells are far more impressive on your personality than what star is in what house.

I think you would have to believe that the moment of birth is the moment that you come into being and that before that you are simply an empty shell. You would therefore have to believe in the soul and religious superstition.

Since the doctor delivering you or the truck driving past the window will have a gravitational effect on you but is discounted by astrology. The physical aspects of your surrpondings is unimportant and therefore the effect that the stars have on you is a spiritual or metaphysical one.
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:50:31   #185
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Originally posted by Sir Penguin
But then it depends on the orientation of the baby's brain relative to the position of the planets, which makes it completely indefinite.

SP
feng shui would guide you!
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Old 03-02-2004, 11:55:13   #186
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That's just a theory though, you haven't given any experimental evidence to support your claims.

In fact it's very hard to prove experimentally how much effect your upbringing has on you as a person. There are so many variables and very few identical people born at identical times with different upbringings. There are quite a lot of debates about "nature vs nurture" that ask how much of your 'personality' is predetermined and how much is due to your upbringing.

Identical twins who were brought up in different environments are extremely valuable for research purposes. It's surprising how many things identical twins who were brought up seperately in totally different environments have in common. eg. two women identical twins who were in their mid 40s the first time they met both bought the exact same dress for their meeting.

In fact there isn't really enough data to be certain about a lot of things in that area but the important thing is that the experiments be performed scientifically.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:00:46   #187
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That's genetics rather than asltrology. I'm completely convinced that your genes and your environment determin your personality.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:04:15   #188
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But can you prove it?

This is the exact thing I'd ask of astrology and any other theory into why people act how they do.

Maybe it's all down to chemical imbalances or viral infections or something, maybe we're all controlled by aliens orbitting the earth.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:09:36   #189
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I guess the way that we prove it is to have some people born at roughly the same time in roughly the same place with a different upbringing and genetics.

Nills Laagerback was born a few hours apart from me.

Let the tests begin.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:13:15   #190
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That would only show the differences, not why they occurred. You'd have to develop your theory further and decide which specific things it predicted. eg. You might say that your theory predicts that being brought up as a french language speaker makes you more likely to be someone who enjoys food.

Then test thousands and thousands of people and see if the French speaking thing has any effect and eliminate all other effects. For instance it might be nothing to do with the French language but being brought up in the culture of France, so maybe you need to compare the results of French speakers to those of people brought up speaking French in different countries.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:15:03   #191
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eh?

What's my theory again?
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:16:44   #192
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I haven't read anything in this thread. But I just wanted to share with you the print on my coffee mug for today:

"Taurus

Symbol: The bull
Ruling Planet: Venus
Birthstone: The Emerald
Flower: Lily of the Valley
Colours: Natural
Numbers: One, Nine
Day: Friday"

Isn't that amazing??!!!
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:18:21   #193
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I knew you would be into natural colours.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:20:50   #194
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That genetics and environment are what effect personality. That's too unspecific though.

Incidently your theory doesn't discount astrology. You could argue that astrology fits into that because the planets do exert a force on people and that could have an effect.

The reason Astrology isn't scientific is because it doesn't do any of these tests and the best experimental evidence we have shows that astrological personality models do not seem to represent people any more accurately than they can apply to someone else with a different birth date/time. The best scientifically produced evidence so far is that it is something we can discount in further understanding the way human personality develops. Theories are proved wrong all the time though.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:36:20   #195
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So how much string do you need to tie around a capricorn?
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:38:51   #196
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Depends on their neck size and the height of the tree you want to string them up on.
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:39:16   #197
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Does anyone else think that Angelhorns posts cutely when she's angry?
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Old 03-02-2004, 12:40:27   #198
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I'll let you know after her response to that post.
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Old 03-02-2004, 13:29:42   #199
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Looks like DaShi's stalking another one. All we need is for Koshko to start the stalking and things will be in order.
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Old 03-02-2004, 17:16:07   #200
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
Back to Sun signs- now some people will still say 'but I'm not a typical Aquarius' or whatever. Like with me- Sag is meant to be sporty, and I am far from, but this is usually where something stronger in the chart has forced that trait down. Some people may be an Aquarius, but have everything else in their chart under signs that beat the Aquarian traits out so to speak. Again this can all be seen in the chart.
Apparently I'm Aquarius with Taurus rising, but it's still a load of dog's bollocks.


Quote:
I could go on all night, but thats enough info I think. The methods of astro are similar to science in that you gather evidence and interpret it.


Sorry, just seeing science and astrology in the same sentence does that to me.



Here's an anecdote for Mike: Once upon a time, I was much younger than I am now (let's say 50%). I was in high school, and one of my fellow students was a girl who was born 15 hours later than I was. Same day, same year, everything.

Our personalities couldn't have been more different. I was a shy, introverted nerd with bad hair. She was a bright and bubbly outgoing and popular person. She went into (I think) nursing (being a people-oriented profession) wheras I went into IT (though I was briefly considering a detour into accounting).

I can firmly suggest that the only reason we would both be able to look at a generalized Aquarius chart and agree with some of the descriptions is because it's way too general. Even considering the rising sign it's too generalized. It's generalized because myself and my co-student had very little in common, other than our birthdate and the classes we were put in by the school administration.

Maybe my doctor was a big fat man exerting more than 0.02 microNewtons which warped my brain. Or maybe my parents screwed my upbringing up. Who knows?
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