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Old 02-02-2004, 13:18:17   #101
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Old 02-02-2004, 13:55:29   #102
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How long have you been waiting to post that?
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Old 02-02-2004, 14:29:56   #103
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Sociology advances our understanding of the world, and does so by means of theories and testing. Thus it's at least pseudoscientific... It's scientific nature is debatable and I'd say that (for example) marxist sociology is clearly not scientific, but overall I think i's definately up there.
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Old 02-02-2004, 14:32:13   #104
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I think Elias Canetti would be a bit miffed at out-of-hand dismissals of sociology.
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Old 02-02-2004, 14:34:46   #105
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Being pseudoscientific makes it worse because people might be in danger of thinking it's science.

If it's science it's actually cultural (social) anthropology.
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Old 02-02-2004, 14:50:06   #106
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I can't believe this thread got to two pages, much less three.

Astrology. Bah.
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Old 02-02-2004, 14:53:47   #107
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Uh oh...Lurker said BAH...does that mean there really IS something to this astrology thing?
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Old 02-02-2004, 15:06:27   #108
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Old 02-02-2004, 18:40:39   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shining1
DS: A very zen arguement. Just not a very useful one.

Merely because something is a stepping stone to a credible theory, doesn't mean that it has any credibility itself.
It was part of the thoughts, observation, and theories that got us to where we are in our current scientific database of theories and observations.

Not that I'm claiming it's rocket science, but it is one of the ancient scientific arts that led to rocket science, after all. And it had mainstream's science credibility at one time. We go from ignorance or patchy data to more complete understanding and higher data density (hopefully).
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Old 02-02-2004, 18:47:16   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
I'd struggle to discredit astrology on the grounds that the personality traits of Capricorns fit me with a frightening degree of accuracy. The relationship traits too- I get on spectacularly well with those Scorpios whom I've known of.

It's probably something similar to biorythms. While I'm not convinced it can predict the future I'm convinced it has a factual basis.
Well, Laz, in Astrology, there are "sign profiles". So you can be an "Aquarius" Sun sign, but have the planetary profile of the stereotypical "Capricorn", for instance.

Now, I'm not an actual astrology supporter. I've just had a bit more exposure to it then many here, and seen it as it used in several sub/counter cultures.
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Old 02-02-2004, 18:58:24   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Look, we're all into the stars right. There is a fascination about the heavenly bodies etc.....

But we men try to understand the stars by the application of science, namely astrophysics. Most of the aforementioned females (in my experience), well, their eyes tend to glaze over at the mearest mention of science, but the fascination still remains, so they turn to Astrology!
Please note, I am aware that there are many great female scientists around!
1) We are not all into stars.

2) People's belief, or lack of it, in the predictive "arts" is not sex based.

3) People's interest in science is not sex based.

I can tell you from having worked in book store that included "predictive" arts (for entertainment purposes only, of course), that it's a close split between women and men that believe in astrology, tarot, etc.

People believe what they want. Whether that's Bush is the ass puppet of Green Jupiterians/Big Oil, or that their destiny is written in the stars, or that E=MC^2. They tend to ignore whatever doesn't agree with their viewpoint, and only pay attention to what does.
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Old 02-02-2004, 19:05:43   #112
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actually women are far more common in astrophysics than other areas of physics

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Old 02-02-2004, 19:11:31   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shining1
The basic principle being that people's personality traints are decided according to the time and place they're born, instead of according to who their parents are and what their life experience is?

That's a principle I'm happy to sit around and slag off.

Astrology is sometimes right. So is the magic 8 ball. What matters are the times it isn't.
Actually, astrology is more about your culture determines who you are. That's why your location, time of birth, etc all get calculated in. Remember, astrology itself is still a practiced "art". New cultural "aspects" to people are being incorporated into it, and old aspects are being "retired" (falling out of favor) from it. You are not in the same culture that your great, great, grandfather was in, after all.

Astrology isn't so much about who and how you see yourself, it's about who you are and how you act as your culture sees you.

Astrology is cultural. It's a reflection of the culture practicing it. The Chinese astrology is very different from Western European astrology. Just as Egytian and Aztec astrologies are different from Chinese and Western European practices.

Remove the *culture* from Astrology, and all you have is 19th century astronomy. The movement of the moon, stars, the planets, asteroids, comets.
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Old 02-02-2004, 19:28:21   #114
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Old 02-02-2004, 19:35:34   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
Actually, astrology is more about your culture determines who you are. That's why your location, time of birth, etc all get calculated in. Remember, astrology itself is still a practiced "art". New cultural "aspects" to people are being incorporated into it, and old aspects are being "retired" (falling out of favor) from it. You are not in the same culture that your great, great, grandfather was in, after all.

Astrology isn't so much about who and how you see yourself, it's about who you are and how you act as your culture sees you.

Astrology is cultural. It's a reflection of the culture practicing it. The Chinese astrology is very different from Western European astrology. Just as Egytian and Aztec astrologies are different from Chinese and Western European practices.

Remove the *culture* from Astrology, and all you have is 19th century astronomy. The movement of the moon, stars, the planets, asteroids, comets.
That's terribly vague. What is the point of astrology and how it is supposed to work?
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Old 02-02-2004, 19:38:51   #116
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Old 02-02-2004, 19:42:18   #117
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Me too but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to find out. Why can't I just stick my birth place date/time in a web form and get my chart back?
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Old 02-02-2004, 19:56:21   #118
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There are a lot of sites on this stuff, this one is as good as any:

http://www.astrology-online.com/index.htm
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Old 02-02-2004, 19:58:39   #119
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Ok. The very basics:

Every little speck that gives off/reflects light or exerts a gravity influence affects you in a minor way. When taken together, they combine to form a particular combination for what is influencing you right now. Or right then. Or in a particular way on Feb 28, 2023.

Now, there's a bunch of different chartings in Astrology. They amount to different graphs to describe what was going on when you were born (Natal chart, a classic form easily found by most who look into Astrology once or twice), what's going on this instant, what your relationship tendencies are like in general, or what your relationship tendencies with someone else are/would be, etc etc etc.

The problem is that it cannot of course describe you to a tee, nor be a roadmap predict that next week, you'll get hit by a bus, get a $750,000 as a settlement as a consequence, and manage to recover enough to enjoy living well in Hawaii, with only occasional bouts of ache in the knees.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:04:24   #120
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On that site (and all the ones I've looked at) you have to pay for the 'custom birth chart'.

I don't understand why you need a human to do it unless there are other variables other than birthdate, place and time. I can't find anywhere that explains that either.

Ah, zmama just sent me a link that sends you your birth chart by e-mail. Enter your details here:

http://store.astrocenter.com/us/stor...Astro&Af=0&VS=

This is mine:

http://store.astrocenter.com/us/Prod...sp?Cm=keaaXojI
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:05:38   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by JM^3
actually women are far more common in astrophysics than other areas of physics

JOn Miller
You mean theres 1 female astrophysicist dont you.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:06:39   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar

The problem is that it cannot of course describe you to a tee, nor be a roadmap predict that next week, you'll get hit by a bus, get a $750,000 as a settlement as a consequence, and manage to recover enough to enjoy living well in Hawaii, with only occasional bouts of ache in the knees.
For me the problem is that the astrological description of you is no more accurate than the same description applied to a different person. As the research from the first site shows.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:09:20   #123
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Michael, Capricorn is the third earth sign
And its time is now!!
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:09:23   #124
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Funko, you pay because they know people will send them money.

I've got a couple of fun software packages that can do all sorts of charts. I suppose I could dig them out. I bought them off the bargain bin ($0.99) so I could do up "Project" projections and schedules, because its not like anyone has a better idea, and at least then SOMETHING is fun about all those scheduling meetings. Anyways, most people just plug your details into those sort of programs and generate "charts". It really is just a matter of basic database lookup, calcs, and printout for the computer.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:09:51   #125
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It's a business, like everything else Mikey, nobody will give you for free what they could make money off of.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:10:03   #126
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From the site Chris posted.

Quote:
The swings in mood are not the only reason some Capricornians deserve the adjective based on their name - capricious. They can be surprisingly and suddenly witty and subtle for the quiet, reserved individuals they seem to be, and they also have a tendency to ruin things by unexpected and utterly irresponsible bouts of flippancy. In certain individuals in whom the characteristic is strong, the temptation to do this has to be resisted with iron self-control. Another unexpected quality in some Capricornians is an interest in the occult which persists in spite of their naturally skeptical turn of mind.
That's me. You'd be amazed how often I attempt to harpoon my career and life through a macabre sense of humour.

Quote:
Their occupations can include most professions that have to do with math or money and they are strongly attracted to music.
That's me. Worked for banks and pension companies, and have a record collection that could blot out the sun.

Quote:
Casual acquaintances they will treat with diplomacy, tact and, above all, reticence. They make few good friends but are intensely loyal to those they do make, and they can become bitter, and powerful enemies.
That's me. Unswervingly loyal, and horribly vindictive.

Quote:
Capricorn governs the knees, bones and skin, so its subjects may be liable to fractures and strains of the knees and other defects of the legs.
My knee cartilage is buggered, I've had bone cancer and I'm prone to psoriasis.

Quote:
There is also a tendency to pessimism, melancholy and even unhappiness which many Capricornians are unable to keep to themselves, especially if they fail personally. In the extreme this trait can make them a very depressed individual; ecstatic happiness alternating with the most wretched kind of misery which is so subconsciously buried that he or she should seek help if such emotions become frequent.
Yup. That too.

Quote:
They are normally confident, strong willed and calm. These hardworking, unemotional, shrewd, practical, responsible, persevering, and cautious to the extreme persons, are capable of persisting for as long as is necessary to accomplish a goal they have set for themselves. They are reliable workers in almost any profession they undertake. They are the major finishers of most projects started by the 'pioneering' signs
And that. That's just scratching the surface, so you'll see why I'm inclined to believe in aspects of astrology. The relationship stuff on that site is spot on too.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:11:45   #127
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But a lot of that could apply to me, and I’m an Aquarius (as proven earlier).
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:16:33   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
From the site Chris posted.
That site is rather accurate with this stuff, the stuff for my birth sign is also close.

My SO found it, and sent it too me some time ago.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:19:45   #129
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There are similarities in certain areas- take a look at your profile. Then again, I see some in the Aquarian profile that really can't apply to me.

Quote:
Among the faults to which they are liable are fanatical eccentricity, wayward egotism, excessive detachment and an inclination to retreat from life and society, and a tendency to be extremely dogmatic in their opinions
That sure as hell isn't me.

Quote:
They may excel in photography, radiography, electronics - anything connected with the electrical and radio industries - aviation and everything technical.
Ever read my DIY threads?
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:22:53   #130
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I just read Funkodrom's. It's vague enough for me to think "yeah, that's Funkodrom" and it is complimentary enough for Funko to think, "yeah, I guess that is like me".
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:25:58   #131
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They are all like that, most strologists do it that way.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:28:29   #132
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Complimentary? What it highlights as "strengths" are what I consider to be unattractive traits- being cold, reserved, conservative, miserly and stubborn. I'd rather be spontaneous, intuitive and magnetic- but I'm not.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:29:56   #133
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Maybe you were switched at birth Laz.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:30:13   #134
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Bah. I can find stuff in all 12 signs that applies to me. And not necessarily most from Aquarius. I can identify with all the Capricorn stuff above, and also the two Aquarius quotes directly above. So it proves nothing really, except that most people are willing to make a greater effort to force themselves to see themselves in descriptions like that IF they have prior belief already. Very few people will be persuaded by astrological personality typing or predicitions IF they don't previously believe and they do enough investigation to see it's all a big load of generalizations to begin with.


LoC's mom made her grow up with this stuff, and as a result she knows a lot about it. She doesn't necessarily believe in it herself, though, although she sometimes correlates real-life stuff with stuff as "predicted" by astrology. She also likes to tease me about it as if it's concrete truth, knowing that I think it's a load of dog's bollocks.

Still, if you're good at it, it's a great way to make money, preying on people's superstitions and ignarance!
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:32:32   #135
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Interesting. Apparently I am a creative, outgoing person who has trouble expressing himself verbally and is a peacemaker. I am also a perfectionist and deftly analytical.

Hello protein,
Astrocenter has prepared your personal Astro Passport as a starting point for reflection about the forces that shape our lives. It provides not only a snapshot of your Sun Sign traits, you will also find accounts of your Rising Sign, your Life Path number, and your Chinese Sign. Get a new perspective. Enjoy!



Element: Fire

Mode: Fixed

Ruler: Sun

Color: Sun Yellow, Gold

Famous Leos:
Louis Armstrong, Neil Armstrong, Napoleon Bonaparte, Charles Bukowski, Emily Brontë, Amelia Earhart, Mata Hari, Alfred Hitchcock, Dustin Hoffman, Whitney Houston, Carl Jung, Madonna, Robert Redford, George Bernard Shaw, Martha Stewart, Andy Warhol, Esther Williams

Strengths:
Ambitious, courageous, creative, faithful, generous, honorable, humorous, open-minded, organized, powerful, self-aware, resolute

Weaknesses:
Arrogant, authoritarian, egocentric, exaggerating, intolerant, jealous -narcissistic, proud, hypersensitive, vain

Leo, the fifth sign of the zodiac, is the sign of generosity and nobility. It stands for self-expression and the unfolding of the internal power principle. Generous and self-aware, you are truly king of the jungle. The Sun defines the dominant traits of your personality and your basic character. This makes you a self-assured, magnanimous, and buoyant person who enjoys being the center of attention, and others often see you as invincible, because your courage and charisma are so impressive.

protein, you are the second of the fire signs, which makes you a strong-willed and courageous individual, with great leadership qualities. Your aura radiates magnetism and dignity like the rays around the sun.

You rule the fifth house of the horoscope, which is the area associated with pleasure, creativity, and play. Your desire to live out your emotions is powerful, and you constantly seek new ways of self-expression. The mode of a Leo is fixed, which means that you are passive in your need for admiration, expecting others to naturally notice and approach you. You enjoy stability and comfort, and are generous in sharing it with others.


Virgo Rising, your mental acuteness is expressed in practical matters. You rather observe things, instead of talking about it. You are systematic and well organized in developing ideas and executing them. You also tend to deftly analyze situations until you have crystal clear results in front of you. No detail is too small for you to notice or explain, protein, because perfection is your goal!

Professionally speaking, you excel in any kind of partnerships and associations, protein, because you are an excellent mediator and diplomat, who has an innate sense of justice. This naturally inspires the respect, and the trust of the people you are in contact with. Since you detest conflict, you are always able to find a common ground that satisfies all parties involved, and are likely to work out compromises to save personal relationships.

You are not very communicative, because your inner life is vast, virgin territory for purity and truth that you idealize. You don’t let anyone enter this very carefully guarded “Garden of Eden”, protein, unless you have invited them. You are very ambitious to make the world a better place. You have a lot of respect for the environment and for your fellow humans, and with a spiritual and universal approach, you try to make your best contributions. This is what pushes a Virgo Rising ahead in life.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:32:53   #136
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:38:10   #137
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Quote:
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I just read Funkodrom's. It's vague enough for me to think "yeah, that's Funkodrom" and it is complimentary enough for Funko to think, "yeah, I guess that is like me".
I think the real question is not whether you think it sounds like me but whether you think it could sound like you.

I don't think it's much like me. Some of it is similar but the focus is on hard work and perseverence and whilst that's flattering I am really lazy and give up quite easily if things are hard.

"you have an extreme capacity for hard work and endurance. "

No, I really don't. I hate hard work and do anything to get out of it.

But, I think that is a really, really basic chart that is basically just a standard Capricorn sun sign chart which Angelhorns said was mostly crap. Maybe Angelhorns can give us some more sensible advice on where to look for the good stuff.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:38:10   #138
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Originally posted by QtFLW@Work
Bah. I can find stuff in all 12 signs that applies to me.
So can I. However, in that Capricorn profile everything applies to me, and that's true of no other sign.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:42:31   #139
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I think the fact that is is pretty vague and complimantary will make everyone mostly agree with their chart.

"invincible, because your courage and charisma are so impressive"
I can dig that

"strong-willed and courageous individual, with great leadership qualities"
Bring it on

"Your aura radiates magnetism and dignity like the rays around the sun"
Couldn't have put it better myself.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:45:06   #140
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There used to be a lot of this stuff for free back in the "good ole days" of free stuff on the net. Not much anymore
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:46:17   #141
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I only want to find out about Astrology so that I can more competently take it apart. Maybe I shouldn't bother.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:48:58   #142
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Your tempting fate Funko, look at waht happened to those people in the Omen when the fucked with the supernatural.
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:49:14   #143
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Typical Capricorn
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:49:17   #144
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Maybe you should have Angelhorns pay for one
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Old 02-02-2004, 20:49:30   #145
Darkstar
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You know, that was always something that put me off of astrology. It tends to say almost all "positive" things. That's why the only bits I actually bothered to try to learn was the negatives. I picked up some of the positive aspects, because you hear them constantly when the subject gets broached, but its the negatives that people need to be warned against. You don't need to tell people that the road is a long, straight, scenic view. They need to be warned that it tends to be washed out with a strong rain, that the cops like to set up a speed trap down at the bottom of the valley, and to stop at the overlooks and enjoy the great view. That's a lot more useful, isn't it?

As I see it, if you tell people only good things about themselves, they'll come back and spend more money. And anything that does that, really sets off my "scam in progress" alarm. And there seems a lot of such behavior that goes along with those offering astrology "consultation" out there.
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Old 02-02-2004, 22:27:56   #146
Dyl Ulenspiegel
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Laz: When you read about a Capricorn with Scorpio rising, you get almost exactly my character. But there are way more people for whom a (detailed) horoscope doesn't fit. So I'm inclined to see it as coincidence.
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Old 02-02-2004, 22:41:53   #147
protein
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
I only want to find out about Astrology so that I can more competently take it apart.
You pursue your objectives with a tremendous, fixed, emotional intensity

Your obsession with staying on top of everything becomes a passionate battle for power

most determined and persistent sign of the zodiac

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Old 02-02-2004, 23:36:44   #148
Shining1
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Beta1: Not where I live. We have lots. And a witty and brilliant crowd they are too.

Mike: Aha! I always knew you were calculating and despotic!


Mine:

Strengths:
Convivial, enthusiastic, ethical, expansive, fair, generous, idealistic, independent, optimistic, outgoing, spontaneous, tolerant, wise

Weaknesses:
Arrogant, dogmatic, excessive, fanatic, flamboyant, irresponsible, ostentatious, reckless, unbound, unfaithful

Sagittarius, the ninth sign of the zodiac, is considered the most prophetic of the signs, Edmond, because you have the urge to understand the meaning of life. Also the most mobile sign of the zodiac, you explore beyond physical and mental boundaries, and thrive on freedom and liberty. Jupiter, the planet of luck and expansion, is the ruler of Sagittarius, and brings optimism and joy to life. Jupiter is also associated with a person’s spiritual beliefs and philosophic standards.

Sagittarius is the third fire sign. This fiery influence is like a candle in the dark, lighting the way to knowledge and wisdom. You walk through life high-spirited and openhearted, always seeking the truth. You are farsighted and goal-directed, Edmond, and are gifted in grasping general principles.

Sagittarius rules the ninth house of the chart, the section associated with the exploration of the intellectual mind or the physical world. Therefore, this house stands for religion, philosophy, higher education, as well as long journeys.

Sagittarius is a mutable sign, making you a communicator and teacher. Since you have the natural ability to gain profound insight into scientific and spiritual fields, you feel that it is your mission to contribute your knowledge on to the world.


I think I agree with this about as much as Laz agrees with his. Some of this is perhaps wishful thinking, though.
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Old 02-02-2004, 23:44:48   #149
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I agree with most of yours too, Shining, except the bit about being a communicator.

Wow! Now I embody the attributes of at least three star signs!
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Old 02-02-2004, 23:51:26   #150
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Mike: That's a really fun site. Best of it's kind.
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