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Old 30-01-2004, 10:57:34   #1
Funkodrom
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Astrology

Had a brief debate (again) with Angelhorns last night about Astrology, she thinks it's good, I think it's total crap. Anyway found this website today which has some impartial research. (you can tell it's impartial because some of it pisses me off. )

http://www.astrology-and-science.com/

The arguments for and against has a good summary of the issues. The not testing switched data bit explains exactly what I've never quite managed to explain about why I think it's basically a total load of crap.

http://www.astrology-and-science.com/a2-cfa.htm

And the rest of the site has articles from both sides of the argument.

Basically I don't see that it does anyone any harm. If people want to believe in it then that's fine, same as believing in God or whatever. However, like God it's existence or 'truth' has not been proved in any scientific way and I suspect it never will be.
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Old 30-01-2004, 11:03:19   #2
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Old 30-01-2004, 11:04:17   #3
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My phys lecturer Dennis Dutton explained Popperian science philosophy to us. It's a neat counter to Astrology and the like.

Essentially, the basis of any scientific theory is 'can you devise an experience that can disprove the theory'.

If you can't do that, the theory is pretty much worthless for any practical purpose.
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Old 30-01-2004, 11:04:42   #4
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All of them.

A girl told me today that she was a typical Taurean because she loved eating all different things and cooking. I said I'm a typical taurean too then!
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Old 30-01-2004, 11:06:23   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shining1
My phys lecturer Dennis Dutton explained Popperian science philosophy to us. It's a neat counter to Astrology and the like.

Essentially, the basis of any scientific theory is 'can you devise an experience that can disprove the theory'.

If you can't do that, the theory is pretty much worthless for any practical purpose.
Exactly, that's a fundamental principle of science. My point really is that astrology might be accurate (as in most people would agree with things that astrologers say about them) but it's not scientific. And also most people agree with things that astrologers say about them even if the astrologer has been given false birth information.
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Old 30-01-2004, 11:12:17   #6
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There's always enough stuff that is 'true' - or the person at least feels it is. (I always considered myself a sensitive, caring person until I got married and discovered just what an insensitive fuck I can be). Because of that, people gloss over the bits that are blatantly wrong.

So I nod appreciatively when the online astrology report calls me a caring, appreciative lover, and giggle and ignore the bits that praise my organisation skills.

And that's the crux of it. Astrology, palmistry, aura reading, tarot, etc, are FUN. They aren't valid predictive sciences - hell, anyone familiar with science knows that the phrase 'predictive science' is dodgy anyway. But they're good entertainment.
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Old 30-01-2004, 11:13:45   #7
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Exactly. My only problem with it is people saying it's scientific. Aside from that, enjoy!
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Old 30-01-2004, 16:52:30   #8
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I like horoscopes. They are a good starting point to discuss character traits. Especially with people who would otherwise never open up enough to talk about this.

Is it "true" or "scientific"? No.
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:03:23   #9
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astrology, schmastrology.
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:07:06   #10
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yeah i don't even see how you can debate this, it's patent bullshit

the fact that only women are really into it says it all for me

of course, i am a typical leo
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:07:45   #11
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:22:40   #12
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I once bothered to argue about astrology by suggesting that if astrology was so damn right why aren't all Capricorns the same? The response was that date and time of birth were also important. So I said there had to be thousands of people around the world born on the same date and at the same time I was, but they're undoubtedly not all like me. The response was that it also depends on where you were born. So I said that there are plenty of instances where people are born at the same time, on the same date and at the same hospital, but I'm willing to bet they're not alike. I don't remember whether the response to that was "prove it" or "well, no two people are alike," but at that point I think I got another beer.

Anyway, I've got something like six or eight birthdays, so how does that fit in with all that stuff?
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:23:05   #13
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It has to be bullshit. I'm supposed to be a Piceseseseseses which means I should be senstive and caring. Horse shit.
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:29:36   #14
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Awww, you really are a sweetie!
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:30:13   #15
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Are you trying to work your way up The List?
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:32:06   #16
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I'm losing my usually massive lunchtime appetite now.
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:44:42   #17
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See, you are a sensitive and caring person! You asked me first!

Besides, I'd be the only one high on the list for being nice to you .
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Old 30-01-2004, 17:50:10   #18
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That's a capital offence same as all the others.
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Old 30-01-2004, 18:17:51   #19
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You mean you don't believe astral formations have pre-determined your entire exisitance?
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:00:13   #20
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Oh definitely! My karma from my past life is so bad, I have to post here... And its all told in the stars
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:01:15   #21
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I plan on being bad in the next life, so I post now to avoid future punishment.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:05:02   #22
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Astrology is scientific. It gave rise to Astronomy, a much more refined science of sky watching.

Venom, your online personality is very pisces. You definately live in your very own world and have serious delusions/dreams of what the rest of the world is like.

You can always find an excuse for why things are the way they are, if you want to. The current main excuses are genes/parenting. Something new will always take that role of "I'm like this cause..." And there will always be ways of labelling other people. Whether's it's because you are an AB asshole or didn't get enough lovin from your mum or cause you have a chemical disorder (you are sober/drunk/whatever).
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:06:29   #23
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The fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:06:59   #24
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Okay then DS...what's my online personality say I am? No fair checking my profile !
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:08:56   #25
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I'm a Libra which means I get stuck with Scales as my symbol. WTF? At least all the other sign are associated with things that a ALIVE, and I just stuck with a damn weight measurer ...
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:11:02   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris
The fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.
Ah, but we are made of the stars, and one day, we will all return to them.

Remember though, that everything we are, we have done, are doing, or will do, was all determined at the moment of the Big Bang. It's all just one big casual chain, people.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:12:27   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shining1
My phys lecturer Dennis Dutton explained Popperian science philosophy to us. It's a neat counter to Astrology and the like.

Essentially, the basis of any scientific theory is 'can you devise an experience that can disprove the theory'.

If you can't do that, the theory is pretty much worthless for any practical purpose.
You mean non-falsifiable? I believe that's the buzz word.


There was an interesting report on NPR that investigated people's opinions of astrology. They got a large of people, and split then into three. One group they asked their star sign, the second group they asked their date of birth (sans year) and the third they asked for the whole shebang, date and year.

Then they gave them all exactly the same horoscope.

The first group went: yeah, okay, kinda, yeah.

The second group said: hey, interesting, pretty good.

The third group went: WOW! That's SO TRUE. How did you know?


This was from a report of why people belive "experts" (official or self-appointed) in certain fields, but is somewhat telling also about astrology in and of itself.

It's a load of bollocks, IMHO.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:12:53   #28
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I don't know, I read that on a cocktail napkin in a strip joint.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:16:30   #29
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Libra... the Scales.

In ancientist practice, it didn't actually exist. It used to be the tale of the Scorpion, but a little observing showed that we needed a bit more time, so a few more observations and tada! Libra.

Libra... that's the "wishy-washy". When given a choice between two items you try to choose both (if good) or neither (if bad). You prefer to let the outside world choose for you, whenever possible. Postive aspects: the fact that you cannot choose sides does allow you to appriate the "hidden" nature of all things... all the good that comes with the bad, and all the better aspects to people and situations. Of course, the curse is that when you should be happy, you see the bad and occasionally point this out to people, or just sit around bitching. Thus, most people think its worth finding someone else to hang out when given a choice of you or finding someone new.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:18:54   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
It's all just one big casual chain, people.
As opposed to a causal chain?
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:19:43   #31
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Given that I don't believe in this sort of thing, there is a fair amount of truth to that Libra text.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:20:33   #32
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Z-Mama, it doesn't matter.

If we really pulled out the "modern refinements", no matter what you are, a modern astrologer could aspect it out of your charts. Regardless. They've got a ton of tricks.

However, the study of astrology spurned a whole lot of learning and recording about the heavens in general, about stars, planets, asteroids, comets, etc. Just as alchemy gave rise to chemistry, astrology gave rise to astronomy.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:21:10   #33
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Quote:
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As opposed to a causal chain?
Are you being Noisy?
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:21:17   #34
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No, casual chain, like The Gap or Old Navy
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:22:24   #35
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Are you being Noisy?
No, my coworker is back in the office, so I have to switch my music off.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:27:24   #36
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I think astrology is a third variable. The kind of parents who are most likely to conceive at an arbitrary time will produce a baby in 9 months who will be raised by parents who are most likely to have conceived at the time they did.

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Old 30-01-2004, 22:27:34   #37
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Quote:
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Given that I don't believe in this sort of thing, there is a fair amount of truth to that Libra text.
Gee... could it be because astrology is based on the study of humanity since man first domesticated animals? That each generality of humanity has been archtyped, and then fleshed out with additional human bonuses and minuses of behavior so that any sign's "Stereotype" will fit you?

Gee... can't be that.

Almost noone likes to make tough decisions. That's why they are tough. We all want our cake, and eat it too. And we'd rather just put it off so we don't have to make that tough call. Even very decisive people are like that... its human nature.

Being able to see the good in bad things, and the bad in good things, is again part of most people. As we age, we learn that there is such a thing as "too much a good thing" and that to grow a field of crops, you got to plow under what is there. (If noone ever died, there'd be nowhere for all the new people, etc etc etc).

That's the trick with those sort of things.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:29:03   #38
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You know, my first post which I had spell checked to make sure it was CAUSAL and not casual, didn't post. So I redid that post... only I didn't bother to check that one. Just that kind of day.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:35:06   #39
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Psst... and Darkstar I think you meant to say spurred not spurned.

Really isn't your day...sorry
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:36:25   #40
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ROTFLMAO!

Veen that sort of day, all day. Good thing it's not my day to drive the car pool!
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:43:01   #41
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Darkstar, if you would have checked your horoscope this morning like everybody else, you could have avoided all your troubles.
That will be 10 bucks please.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:46:11   #42
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I'm not paying for non-services. You want your 10 dollars, get on your knees, just like Venom does!
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:48:51   #43
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I know the tricks used.
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Old 30-01-2004, 22:50:13   #44
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Old 30-01-2004, 23:43:58   #45
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Quote:
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Psst... and Darkstar I think you meant to say spurred not spurned.

Really isn't your day...sorry
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I think you'll find he meant spawned
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Old 31-01-2004, 00:33:27   #46
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DS: A very zen arguement. Just not a very useful one.

Merely because something is a stepping stone to a credible theory, doesn't mean that it has any credibility itself.
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Old 31-01-2004, 03:17:26   #47
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As usual, you all sit round slagging astrology off, without actually bothering to learn or understand even its most basic principles. This really fucks me off because its what all scientists do, and then they formulate arguments to satisfy the logic of their own flawed understanding.

Yes there are bad astrologers, and Yes there are different schools of astrological thought but isn't that true of science too? You'd be surprised how accurate astrology can be, but astrologers (mostly) believe in free will, and I feel its this slight ambiguity that makes scientists uncomfortable, but get over it- we dont have all the answers yet.

Incidentally King_Ghidra, when I first met you months ago, I said to my friend 'I bet he's a Leo' and I made someone find out your birthday LOL.
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Old 31-01-2004, 04:31:58   #48
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astology is shirtiot si makeing shot iup that is had no basic in fact

also ther ie the fdasctg tha aa theterre is nto first pricnepes to go form
'
thakle fishicks for example, there is nmestoneosm l;oqaws or quantum mechanice or other first pruincimples

thinkare are the weay thett are fora reason, thety have to be that ewayh

if theying wersd idfnnerednt thety weren'kti work

like if pankhs constasnt were different there world would work different

and the alwws of mathssayt that therew had to be the figgere nt nubmer of quarlks (wollt it is a naubmer here could be, there could also be moire (but it woudl ahve to be a proper nubemr, it couldn't be nuset any nubmer like 12 or 29lor 438 or some of ther jsut like thaet ))

anyaws, physics is athe wayt it is because it all works out,t here is not semilarytg reasonign itn astrology, it dint' hvean't to be that wat r ot secxist ast all, cayou can't dreifve it from first [ronci[;es or any pronicibples at alll

and that uis the fifferenc4e, the eimp[ortant differecvn between cp[hucicne and notne sphicence

and that is the reaosn astrology is cshit



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Old 31-01-2004, 09:58:58   #49
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I'd struggle to discredit astrology on the grounds that the personality traits of Capricorns fit me with a frightening degree of accuracy. The relationship traits too- I get on spectacularly well with those Scorpios whom I've known of.

It's probably something similar to biorythms. While I'm not convinced it can predict the future I'm convinced it has a factual basis.
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Old 31-01-2004, 10:00:13   #50
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And the longest Drunkpost award goes to...

Jon Miller! Well done my man.
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