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Old 15-12-2003, 07:46:29   #51
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I've avoided this film. Perhaps I should watch it sometime.
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Old 15-12-2003, 09:29:25   #52
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King of NY scared the shit out of me when I first saw it

now, on Moore, he uses the same media techniques as Fox News and other fascist media. Unfortunately, if you argue with reason and temperance, nobody listen to you nowadays. This is the decade of who yells the loudest is right (wing).

The main thing I did enjoy was his underlying theme, how US politicians have used fear as a means of social control. The part on the black question was especially noteworthy. The racial question in the US (and the innuendos around it) was the one thing that surprised me the most when I first lived there.
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Old 15-12-2003, 09:34:41   #53
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"now, on Moore, he uses the same media techniques as Fox News and other fascist media. Unfortunately, if you argue with reason and temperance, nobody listen to you nowadays. This is the decade of who yells the loudest is right (wing)."

I think there are enough valid points without having to resort to stuff like that but it's the main reason I haven't watched it yet. I dissapprove of those methods so much from the right wing I can hardly condone them when used to support stuff I might agree with.
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Old 15-12-2003, 11:22:50   #54
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From what I've heard on this and the other forum, I'm not convinced that he has valid points. Not because he may be forging some facts or stretching some truths, but because he may be drawing the wrong conclusion from the facts he has. From what I've heard, it sounds like he has an idea and then tries to fit the facts into them. I just wonder if it is really any different than the thinking of the people who blame rock music and video games for school shootings.

As for a culture of fear in the US, it is hard for me to judge. I feel about as safe in China as I do in the US. Although I may be a bit more alert here. Because situations tend to be more crowded, I'm more alert for pick pockets. I lock my bike up more securely than I ever did my car, and both are pieces of crap. When I lived in New Haven, my roommates rarely remembered to lock the door in our apartment, let alone close it at night. Here, the school has provided an iron gate in front of my door and advised me to keep it locked at all times. In general, being a foreigner makes me bigger a target for theft. We're all rich after all.

If there is a culture of fear in America, I'd place the cause on the media. I gave up watching American news because of just that. "Killer bees found in mass Indian grave, find out how it affects you. Tonight at 11:00." But anyway, I'd like to see the film first.

As for American liberals, I see no reason to take them seriously. I can't truly understand them. They say some of the most ridiculous things, and I just can't figure out why. They certainly hate America, but why? There is a teacher at my school who is very liberal. Today, she was quite visibly upset about Saddam's capture. I asked her why and she responded by saying, "I don't think America should arrest Saddam when America itself is responsible for so many deaths." But that's not a good reason. America's actions do not absolve Saddam. To think so is ludicrous. She also told me that she believes that America needs to suffer. After it has suffered, it will be a better country. What an awful thing to say. To wish horrible misery on one group of people, in the vain hope that another may have a better life. And then the Canadians here, who seem to beleive that every action America ever did was pure evil. It is as if all these conspiracy theories they like to read have rotted their brains. The whole thing is irrational and frustrating. I'm not a fan of Bush. I think that the war has been handled terribly by his administration. But these people are like rabid dogs. They are no different from conservatives. Two sides of the same coin and all that.

In all this has created a strong feeling of indifference. I can't have an opinion. There are people on the left screaming that it is wrong and evil, and there are people on the right screaming that it is wrong and evil. So I finally say, "Fuck it all."
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Old 15-12-2003, 11:35:36   #55
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"As for American liberals, I see no reason to take them seriously. I can't truly understand them. They say some of the most ridiculous things, and I just can't figure out why."

Same as the American right wingers then from what I've seen. Both groups seem to be riddled with extremist nuts.

Honestly the political spectrum in the US is so fucked up I can't really understand any of it. All the issues seem to have massive extremes, here (and I think in most of Europe) the real extremists are very much in the minority, most people agree on most stuff and the arguments are about almost trivial details.
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Old 15-12-2003, 11:41:58   #56
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We likes 'em big the ol' USofA.
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Old 15-12-2003, 14:24:13   #57
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Originally posted by DaShi
Today, she was quite visibly upset about Saddam's capture. I asked her why and she responded by saying, "I don't think America should arrest Saddam when America itself is responsible for so many deaths."
It can deal with Saddam. Somewhere down the line, some other country may well deal with the war criminals in the Bush administration.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:13:06   #58
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I don't think anyone has the balls to. The rest of the world seems much more suited to making wild allegations about things that they have no first hand experience with and doing a lot of whinging and moaning and bitching for good measure.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:19:39   #59
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Of course we have experience, we did it all much worse a few hundred years ago.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:21:33   #60
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Yeah, let's just call it even and forget politics entirely on this site. There's not much point, really.
Plus, ambivalence to politics is the new pink.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:21:51   #61
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Just wait 10 years, 20 years....
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:24:36   #62
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...and we'll be lecturing the Chinese.

For fuck's sake--do you have to stick people in ovens and rape entire nations' women and then get your ass kicked to have some sort of moral integrity in the world?
We're just the world's cops...the rest of you are still feeding at the trough you fucking hypocrites.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:27:20   #63
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:31:20   #64
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Yeah, you know--pig, hired gun, thug with a badge...whatever.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:32:51   #65
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You really think the rest of the world is sooooo unfair to you?
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:41:13   #66
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I think we are unfair because we have a tendency to see the whole of America as an entity when it's a huge and very varied country full of very different people.

And we (in Europe) also tend to be very smug, patronising and superior.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:46:09   #67
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"And we (in Europe) also tend to be very smug, patronising and superior."


And rightly so.
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Old 15-12-2003, 16:50:31   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
I think we are unfair because we have a tendency to see the whole of America as an entity when it's a huge and very varied country full of very different people.

Sure, as we are talking about a poltical entity. If an American wants to identify himself with the rotten political establishment, the silly media, the corrupt corporations etc, own fault. Everyone's invited to eg bash our fucktard of a chancellor to his heart's content - if anyone would care.

"And we (in Europe) also tend to be very smug, patronising and superior."

Sure, but we still have a lot to learn in that respect from the oligarchs that run America.
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Old 15-12-2003, 17:03:44   #69
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I dunno. Whatever you see the more rabid American posters saying it's never "God, you french are so stupid to elect that idiot Chirac" or "You stupid Brits, how could you fall for that slimy lying weasel Blair" or whatever.
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Old 15-12-2003, 17:10:25   #70
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Shows a distinct lack of solidarity with those that didn't elect that idiot Chirac I'd say. Or rather, like all right-wingers they believe in the rule of the unified people facing together outward rather than international co-operation between minorities that rightly distrust the government.
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Old 15-12-2003, 17:18:47   #71
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Something that made me think a lot recently was one of the African members who went to that international trade conference recently. He said (and this is a paraphrase) he much prefered dealing with the Americans because they told you up front they were going to shaft you. The Europeans said very nice things and pretended they weren't going to but in the end they shafted you too. He said that at least with America you knew where you stood.

And in your example, why is it only minorities that should unite because they distrust the government? I think the vast majority of people distrust their government.
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Old 15-12-2003, 17:19:43   #72
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
I dunno. Whatever you see the more rabid American posters saying it's never "God, you french are so stupid to elect that idiot Chirac"
I have no problem with that, it's fair enough
I don't, however, feel responsible/should be blamed for his stupidity or power lust. If it was down to me, Chirac would be in jail.

In return, I expect to be able to say that the US are being run by a corrupt and inept administration.

Now, capturing Saddam is a very good thing, but it doesn't bring us one inch closer to the defeat of islam fascists, aka the real perpetrators of 9/11 (and there are good reasons to think the Iraq situation is a godsent to them)
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Old 15-12-2003, 17:28:39   #73
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Which is why I was opposed to the war really. "Come, look, the infidel is invading our lands now and killing our brothers!! It's time to fight! " etc.

I wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying that Blair was a slimy lying weasel either but that wasn't my point really, we don't really have any right to be superior or patronising although we often seem it. It's too easy to say that all Americans are stupid/ignorant etc. our governments aren't much better, just less powerful.
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Old 15-12-2003, 17:42:01   #74
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I have to agree with Funky as to why you guys piss me off sometimes. There seems to be an inability to differentiate between America and Americans in the European mind. I really don't like the broad brush treatment that is at the very least insulting and often ignorant. A certain young lady who is new here has made several comments about the US education system, politics, gun ownership, etc. that are highly erroneous.(I don't own a gun myself, though my avatar does...).
I wish you'd all check yourselves a bit more in this regard...believe it or not, there are left leaning Americans and I'm one of them.
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Old 15-12-2003, 18:21:42   #75
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Originally posted by maroule
Now, capturing Saddam is a very good thing, but it doesn't bring us one inch closer to the defeat of islam fascists, aka the real perpetrators of 9/11 (and there are good reasons to think the Iraq situation is a godsent to them)
That's just your opinion, and unfortunately you're of the mind that your opinion is law. And it ain't.
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Old 15-12-2003, 18:24:36   #76
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And though it sickens me, BGH has pretty much covered exactly what I think about all this.
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Old 15-12-2003, 18:46:04   #77
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
I wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying that Blair was a slimy lying weasel
I have a problem with that.

Weasels are highly intelligent creatures and really not as bad as everyone makes out.

I think you should refer to Blair as a slimy lying stoat from now on instead.
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Old 15-12-2003, 18:47:55   #78
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Old 15-12-2003, 19:22:31   #79
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I find it funny someone accuses the USA of "fascist" anything, considering this nation loathes Mussolini, his ignorent protege Hitler, supports Jews, and takes a dim view of murderers and dictators. Just because FOX news refuses to kiss France's and the EU's ass doesn't make it fascist. Just makes it worth watching.

This is why I try to avoid talking politics at CG, a lot of you have the wrong idea about the USA, and all that happens is a big row.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:23:55   #80
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Only cause you think being jewish and fascist is mutually exclusive.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:34:43   #81
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"Jewish fascist" seems like a good topic for a Laz historical diatribe.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:35:08   #82
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One word: Sharon.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:38:11   #83
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Sharon Osbourne?
I didn't know she was Jewish.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:42:39   #84
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But she's one tough cookie.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:45:16   #85
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I'm pretty sure Sharon isn't interested in making the med an Italian lake either.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:46:30   #86
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:47:39   #87
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Yes, they are.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:48:59   #88
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And the Met is overrated, too.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:54:35   #89
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The Mets got better, signed a few guys.
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Old 15-12-2003, 20:57:48   #90
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Old 15-12-2003, 21:00:52   #91
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Old 15-12-2003, 21:04:03   #92
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Old 15-12-2003, 21:08:56   #93
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I'm surprised you know what the Mets are.
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Old 15-12-2003, 21:14:38   #94
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Old 15-12-2003, 21:17:07   #95
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He's faking.
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Old 15-12-2003, 21:18:24   #96
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Old 15-12-2003, 21:43:55   #97
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And then the Canadians here, who seem to beleive that every action America ever did was pure evil. It is as if all these conspiracy theories they like to read have rotted their brains. The whole thing is irrational and frustrating. I'm not a fan of Bush. I think that the war has been handled terribly by his administration. But these people are like rabid dogs. They are no different from conservatives. Two sides of the same coin and all that.
re Canadians 'here', huh?

Then I'd pretty well have to agree about the rest.
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Old 15-12-2003, 22:20:30   #98
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I have to agree with Funky as to why you guys piss me off sometimes. There seems to be an inability to differentiate between America and Americans in the European mind. I really don't like the broad brush treatment that is at the very least insulting and often ignorant. A certain young lady who is new here has made several comments about the US education system, politics, gun ownership, etc. that are highly erroneous.(I don't own a gun myself, though my avatar does...).
I wish you'd all check yourselves a bit more in this regard...believe it or not, there are left leaning Americans and I'm one of them.
I made ONE sarcastic comment to you about American education BGH, because YOU were pissing me off with your sexism and personal insults, and you said you thought you were intellectually superior to me (or words to that effect). You can't on the one hand insult me on grounds of my biology and then expect me to be respectful of your geographical birthright. You insulted 50% of the world's population with your crass 'tease' comments as I see it, so I gave you a taste of your own medicine. And its no secret that America does have an incredibly poor literacy rate for a Western country, so what I said wasn't even untrue- sarcastic yes, but not untrue.

I have not said anything about gun ownership other than in this thread, and have made no comments on American politics that I wouldnt make to an American face to face. I work for an American company, with Americans, and I lived with and was friends with several Americans at Uni, where I studied American politics and literature.

American politics has become world politics, and while your country is the 'cop' of the world, you (as a nation) have to expect to take some flack for your policies, because not everyone wants to live like America, under America. I have never confused Americans with America, and I dont think most people here have either. You just don't seem to like your country being criticised.

Its also true that Europeans and Brits have a far more open style of politics whereby its very common to slag off and criticise openly the politics of another country/party/person without having to falsify a show of 'respect' for them, and its regarded as part of the game. In my general experience with Americans, their political style is politer and less sarcastic- slagging off politicians and politics is virtually a national sport here, perhaps because we have to rub shoulders with more nations geographically and we have all had to learn to live together via war and arguments.

When you fall from power as Britain did, you too will be pissing and moaning that China has crap policies that impact on everyone else etc etc etc

Everyone has a laugh at each other's expense on here (I've seen more comments about France and Germany than the US), you just seem extra sensitive to it. Please stop wheeling me out as some kind of example of rabid anti-Americanism, beause you know sod all about me, and you are making a very unpleasant mountain out of a molehill.

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Old 15-12-2003, 22:40:53   #99
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I was calling you a tease, not the whole female gender. As for why I called you a tease, I've already gone over that. Certainly, calling one particular woman a tease based on her particular actions does not indicate that I have a view of ALL woman that is sexist.
And you have a seeming penchant for ripping on American endeavors, whether it is their space program or whatever happens to catch your attention. It gets old.
For someone who has not been here that long, it stands out, whether you think it does or not.
Come to the US and then tell us what is wrong...you're dealing with perceptions, not necessarily reality.

I don't know what it will take for us to bury the hatchet, but I hope there is some way we can.
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Old 15-12-2003, 23:05:32   #100
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BGH I think the fact you believe in the concept of women 'teasing' men says a lot about you, and I say that when you call one woman a tease you insult all women by making certain assumptions as previously detailed. I don't think you could have applied it to a more unlikely person either. Sure, I have a laugh about sex but if I have NEVER been a coy little girlie begging for male attention, or someone who tries to play men. I think Funko,Debaser or Devilshalo would all tell you I'm a very straightforward, independent person who plays things straight. If I wanted to flirt, you'd know all about it, but I have never teased anyone so drop it.

As for the US, we get more US news than any other kind in Britain (apart from our own) especially now Blair has to be surgically removed from Bush's arse every time he wants to speak, so perhaps thats why I pick up American stuff. I'm not sure why you've particularly taken to bashing me, but evryone on here has made comments about America. I dont think you have to live there to have a critical view of the culture- its forced on us through media and politics 24 hrs a day. I don't claim to know everything about America, and its so big anyway I imagine its different all over. Perhaps I am more critical at the moment because my partner is in Iraq getting shot at every day for what seems to me to be a personal vendetta for America's president backed up by our spineless whelk of a PM.

As for burying the hatchet, just get off my back, that'll do it, and don't post things calling me a stupid bitch- that's never a winner. Agree to disagree.

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If Bush drank strychnine and danced with venemous snakes you would be worried wouldn't you? I really, really hope you would. - Protein considers voodoo economics
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