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Old 19-11-2003, 13:58:17   #151
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No clue. I do not understand media machinations.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:01:01   #152
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Originally posted by Venom
There's the attitude that kills me, you guys are angling for a fight. You want to piss us off.
No, we are pissed off.

"There's nothing constructive about your attitudes at all."

Venom's ill.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:04:10   #153
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When confronted with deep cultural and political differences, constructive is the only way to be. Screaming and yelling only accentuate the differences and bring about more anger. I know. I specialize is angrifying people.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:05:41   #154
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Um, what's aggressive about saying "we're not worried if you shun us America"? Is not being afraid of the consequences because you don't agree with someone, now known as agression?
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:06:15   #155
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I agree.

People are already angry though and they want to show that to the person who is making them most angry. Rightly or wrongly.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:07:23   #156
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It's not what you say. It's how you say it. Disgracing our flag and comparing our President to Hitler...not exactly friendly ways of disagreeing.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:07:33   #157
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"constructive is the only way to be"

Ok. So how constructive has the US admin been vis a vis europe, not to mention the arab world, seeing the record level of hatred?

I got tired of being constructive a long time ago. And it's an illusion of those protesters to think they can influence American politics. But what they can do over time is force the UK to abandon the alliance with the US.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:08:41   #158
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
I agree.

People are already angry though and they want to show that to the person who is making them most angry. Rightly or wrongly.
Frustration and powerlessness leads to anger, as we have seen all round the globe
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:09:29   #159
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I saw two volumes of Bushisms in the shop the other day. That made me really angry for a number of reasons, prominent among them the sheer laziness of the thing.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:09:42   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
It's not what you say. It's how you say it. Disgracing our flag and comparing our President to Hitler...not exactly friendly ways of disagreeing.
We do shit like that to our own politicians all the time, it's considered mild satire.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:09:48   #161
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Original directed at Dyl, but also just a blanket statment...

Great attitude considering how long we've stood with Europe and the shit we've been through because of that. I don't doubt you'll get your wish some day. We'll leave and and hunker down behind our 3000 mile wide walls of water. And you'll come asking for our help again. I hope we turn you down.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:11:07   #162
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Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Frustration and powerlessness leads to anger
Yes, master Yoda.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:11:31   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
"constructive is the only way to be"

Ok. So how constructive has the US admin been vis a vis europe, not to mention the arab world, seeing the record level of hatred?

I got tired of being constructive a long time ago. And it's an illusion of those protesters to think they can influence American politics. But what they can do over time is force the UK to abandon the alliance with the US.
I think this is the view of a lot of people, Bush and Blair lost the ability (and right) to engage people in constructive dialogue a long time ago. Now the only thing that remains is to dsiplay as much disgust as possible to destroy the alliance that has been forced onto this country.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:12:07   #164
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It's nothing to do with not being allied with the US, that'd be silly. It's to do with not going along with, agreeing to everything they say.

We're in an economic union with France and Germany as well as various military alliances, that doesn't mean we don't fight like 5 year olds over certain things. You can't expect allied governments or the peoples of allied countries to agree with everything their allies do, they don't even agree about what to do in their own country.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:13:48   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
Original directed at Dyl, but also just a blanket statment...

Great attitude considering how long we've stood with Europe and the shit we've been through because of that. I don't doubt you'll get your wish some day. We'll leave and and hunker down behind our 3000 mile wide walls of water. And you'll come asking for our help again. I hope we turn you down.
don't brind the past up. Each political move must be considered on it's own merits.
Again, no one is afraid if America shuns us, it is not an act of agression
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:13:58   #166
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Nothing to do with not being allied with us? So far everyone in here is proactively cheering for breaking the alliance.. All I can say to that, on behalf of all the Americans that have stood up with you when you needed it...Fuck you (and I say that in the plainest manner possible, no anger or insult intended). We need you even less than you need us. And one day we'll realize that and build Fortress America, and let the rest of the world burn.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:14:13   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
Original directed at Dyl, but also just a blanket statment...

Great attitude considering how long we've stood with Europe and the shit we've been through because of that.
Yes, Nazi Germany and the USSR have never been your problem really, you got just drawn in because of us. Just for the sheer goodness of your heart.

There are many historical relations between Europe and the US, both ways. If you expect gratitude for whatever, forget it.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:14:37   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
I think this is the view of a lot of people, Bush and Blair lost the ability (and right) to engage people in constructive dialogue a long time ago. Now the only thing that remains is to dsiplay as much disgust as possible to destroy the alliance that has been forced onto this country.
Huge difference between "current military alliance in Iraq" and "decades old political and millitary alliance".

The former is what people are protesting surely? The historical alliance is and has been a great benefit to the UK.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:15:14   #169
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"We need you even less than you need us."

Au contraire.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:15:33   #170
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Loyalty has never been a European trait, now has it. I guess 1000 years of being crammed together with enemy countries and massive inbreeding has taught you that.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:15:38   #171
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Bush and Blair lost the ability (and right) to engage people in constructive dialogue a long time ago. Now the only thing that remains is to dsiplay as much disgust as possible to destroy the alliance that has been forced onto this country.
Quote:
don't brind the past up. Each political move must be considered on it's own merits.
Eh?
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:16:17   #172
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The former is what people are protesting surely? The historical alliance is and has been a great benefit to the UK.
Judging by what I see in here...not neccesarily.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:16:20   #173
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"Loyalty has never been a European trait"

Neither is it an american one, or you'd still stick to your old bitch Saddam.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:16:42   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
Nothing to do with not being allied with us? So far everyone in here is proactively cheering for breaking the alliance....
Really!
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:16:54   #175
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Can some one clear this up? Are people angry at the US because it ignores their countries opinions or because it attacked another country that they have no alliance or close relationship with?
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:17:31   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
Judging by what I see in here...not neccesarily.
A lot of people here are talking emotionally, not logically.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:17:59   #177
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[edit] Imagine this as being in my previous post to avoid confusion.


It was that sort of blanket judgement which introduced this thread. I am glad people appear to be the same the world over.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:18:20   #178
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Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
"Loyalty has never been a European trait"

Neither is it an american one, or you'd still stick to your old bitch Saddam.
He's been a European bitch since we ditched him. Don't try to play the explicit complicity card there. We're all at fault for him.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:18:42   #179
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Can some one clear this up? Are people angry at the US because it ignores their countries opinions or because it attacked another country that they have no alliance or close relationship with?
Well some people seem to just be angry with the US in general. Which I guess proves the point of the initial article I was apologising for.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:18:43   #180
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Originally posted by Venom
Nothing to do with not being allied with us? So far everyone in here is proactively cheering for breaking the alliance.. All I can say to that, on behalf of all the Americans that have stood up with you when you needed it...Fuck you (and I say that in the plainest manner possible, no anger or insult intended). We need you even less than you need us. And one day we'll realize that and build Fortress America, and let the rest of the world burn.
Oh god, now it's come to this. Please convince your President about that. Then at least I won't get angry about my taxes being abused at this level - and as a person that's all I can hope to do.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:19:38   #181
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Blankets are warm.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:20:50   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
He's been a European bitch since we ditched him. Don't try to play the explicit complicity card there. We're all at fault for him.
True, the UK especially has had a huge hand in the history of Iraq. As evidenced by the number of UK military units invading Iraqi towns again (and not again after the '91 war either).
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:21:11   #183
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Originally posted by Venom
He's been a European bitch since we ditched him. Don't try to play the explicit complicity card there. We're all at fault for him.
He's never been a european bitch. He was the west's darling until 1990. Everyone had sanctions on Iraq after 1990, even the French, no matter how much US propaganda you've swallowed.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:22:01   #184
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Huge difference between "current military alliance in Iraq" and "decades old political and millitary alliance".

The former is what people are protesting surely? The historical alliance is and has been a great benefit to the UK.
No, that’s the problem I have. They aren’t just protesting this particular piece of policy. And the organisers are a bunch of chancers.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:22:03   #185
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Fuck you (and I say that in the plainest manner possible, no anger or insult intended).
My feelings exactly. Let's make a clean divorce.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:24:01   #186
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
Well some people seem to just be angry with the US in general. Which I guess proves the point of the initial article I was apologising for.
No no no! Lets not start a list of grievances please, because I'm sure people like Venom will have a list of counter arguments to each one, then it will quickly end up in "Fortress America" - whoops own goal.
Point is as Dyl said, we are all powerless so the only way we can do anything is to protest / smash things up in the most civalised way possible. So I'll see yo'll on thursday (sorry, must add): Then topple the current leaders and hope for better days
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:25:53   #187
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
Well some people seem to just be angry with the US in general. Which I guess proves the point of the initial article I was apologising for.
Some people like to hate or have someone or something to hate. I'd day most people do. When they feel they can hate without consequence, these types of incidents happen. Like the Chinese riots over a Japanese college play. It just gets to the point where it's ridiculous. Hopefully, in time, things will get better. As an American, I have to accept the fact that my countries policies are extremely unpopular around the world. It's just something that I have to deal with. :shrug:
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:27:30   #188
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No, that’s the problem I have. They aren’t just protesting this particular piece of policy. And the organisers are a bunch of chancers.
I do tend to agree with that. If people want to protest about the policy and actions of the UK and US in Iraq. Fair enough - that is why we and the US are each a democracy.

However, I get the suspicion that there are those that use the issue as a trojan horse for a more widespread anti-Americanism and ultimately anti-trade, anti-capitalism platform.

Note : I said some and not all - there are protestors there with sincere concerns and they do not deserve to be rubbished as trashed out pinkos. Nor should ordinary Americans be targetted by those that duisagree with theit country's stance.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:29:04   #189
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No, but it is the nature of mass protests than one bad apple spoils the barrel. Someone starts smashing up a McDonald’s or something, things get out of hand, and the whole thing is devalued.

The the credit of the protestors, most of the protests earlier this year passed without incident.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:31:18   #190
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No, that’s the problem I have. They aren’t just protesting this particular piece of policy. And the organisers are a bunch of chancers.
It does seem that there are some people who are against everything American on principle, rather than specific policies. Which sucks.

I have rather changed my opinion of Bush lately. I used to think he was an undiplomatic insentitive arsehole who said to your face when he was going to shaft you, and I at least appreciated that honesty. We might not like what he said but at least we knew where we stood.

I still think he's an insensitive arsehole but now I think that he does try and sweet talk us, then shaft us anyway he's just really bad at the sweet talking thing.

Like over this steel tarif thing. Thanks for all your support in Iraq, but we're still going to fuck your heavy industry (if we had any) over by not lowering our steel import tarifs
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:33:08   #191
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Yes. Which is why I hope the EU hit him with tariffs in the states which he tried to swing with the steel tariffs.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:33:26   #192
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It does seem that there are some people who are against everything American on principle, rather than specific policies. Which sucks.

I have rather changed my opinion of Bush lately. I used to think he was an undiplomatic insentitive arsehole who said to your face when he was going to shaft you, and I at least appreciated that honesty. We might not like what he said but at least we knew where we stood.

I still think he's an insensitive arsehole but now I think that he does try and sweet talk us, then shaft us anyway he's just really bad at the sweet talking thing.

Like over this steel tarif thing. Thanks for all your support in Iraq, but we're still going to fuck your heavy industry (if we had any) over by not lowering our steel import tarifs
You'd prefer to be sweet talked first then shafted?!? That's hypocrasy, there's nout worse than a hypocrite.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:34:07   #193
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Yeah, they are thinking of slapping huge tariffs on Oranges to fuck the Florida vote. Clever.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:34:39   #194
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You'd prefer to be sweet talked first then shafted?!? That's hypocrasy, there's nout worse than a hypocrite.
I meant the opposite of that.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:35:44   #195
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Yeah, Bill was better. He'd sweet talk Europe and then go home and shaft an intern.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:43:14   #196
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We either stand together as individuals who have made the choice to do so or we fall apart as close minded groups who can't decide what the membership criteria should be. Welcome to the history of our world.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:48:21   #197
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The thing about the Bush government is that they are happy to say "this is what we're going to do, if you don't like it, try and stop us" and of course no-one can stop them.

That's scary. Add a tiny bit of diplomatic flair and tone down some of the language and people aren't as scared/angry as before even if the policy is much the same (eg. during Clinton's times).

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to... suffering. As Yoda once said.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:52:33   #198
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Oh, it's not just steel they are shafting us over apparently.

http://www.thisislondon.com/news/bus...les/timid70616

Quote:
GEORGE Bush's administration has called on US companies in Britain to relocate jobs to America in an astonishing move that could trigger a major trade war.

US-based multinationals have been told they will receive compensation from American trade authorities if they cancel contracts in Britain and take jobs home, according to CBI director-general Digby Jones.

The allegations come only a day before Bush arrives in London for his controversial State visit and escalate the storm of protest he has already caused by slapping big protectionist tariffs on European steel imports.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:54:37   #199
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Maybe the Brits will finally understand what the "Special Relationship" is really about.
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Old 19-11-2003, 14:55:52   #200
Eklektikos
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: At my desk, wasting time.
I'd better organise my desk ready for clearing out, then
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