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Old 24-04-2003, 08:20:13   #201
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'Read more carefully. Both are liberal, western, pro business'

vs.

a soft ideological angle in one (Reuters = liberal, western, pro business), a rabid ideological biais in the other...

Care to test your comprehension?
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:24:19   #202
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How about using a complete quote?

"a soft ideological angle in one (Reuters = liberal, western, pro business), a rabid ideological biais in the other (sanguine jingoistic, less than the Sun, but only slightly)."

How are they mutually exclusive, if you accept that "liberal" does not mean "tiptoe through the tulips leftwing twattendom" to us eurotwats?
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:26:28   #203
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You'll have to excuse my non native english, but I thought I clearly said the intensity of the angle separated them

I did try to specify what I meant by 'soft ideological' by opening brackets. I think I had to repeat that Fox was western and pro-business. It seemed obvious.

And I thought we would discuss the content, not wank on the place of brackets in my sentences.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:26:31   #204
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You have failed the test. Sorry, please come again.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:28:00   #205
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Talking to NYE in Suaheli wouldn't be much different from the current experience.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:29:40   #206
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Originally posted by maroule
You'll have to excuse my non native english, but I thought I clearly said the intensity of the angle separated them

I did try to specify what I meant by 'soft ideological' by opening brackets. I think I had to repeat that Fox was western and pro-business. It seemed obvious.

And I thought we would discuss the content, not wank on the place of brackets in my sentences.
Ahhh, they're liberals. I see. That's why you said...

'Fox makes 'l'humanité' (the communist daily shere in France) seem balanced in its opinions.'

is that it?
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:30:22   #207
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Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Talking to NYE in Suaheli wouldn't be much different from the current experience.
Goi find a loop hole to crawl through, Roland.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:32:13   #208
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Unfortunately I dont know Suaheli, but this will do too.

Oiso, wos moanst jetzan mit dem loch wo i durchkrein soi? Du redst wie a rodwöscha.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:34:56   #209
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Originally posted by notyoueither
Ahhh, they're liberals. I see. That's why you said...

'Fox makes 'l'humanité' (the communist daily shere in France) seem balanced in its opinions.'

is that it?


you're trolling me!

if you are, a comparison between two elements doesn't mean they are similar in all aspects

example
"my new bicycle would make a Ferrari look shabby"
i.e it doesn't mean a bicycle is a car
comparing Fox and L'huma doesn't imply I think Fox is communist...

but you are joking, of course, you can't be so stupid
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:35:10   #210
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You're dead wrong? Can't win? Don't see a way out? Be a twat. Very effective, Roland.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:36:52   #211
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Originally posted by maroule
but you are joking, of course, you can't be so stupid
Honestly? I thought you couldn't be to deny baldfaced what you have said.

What's the big deal? You think Fox is shit. OK. You think so. But why deny what you said?
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:44:27   #212
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You're dead wrong? Can't win? Don't see a way out? Be a twat. Very effective, Roland.
Hättst gern, Rechtsaußenwichsa.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:45:03   #213
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But why deny what you said?
Maroule hot recht. Ned amoi du konnst so deppat sei.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:46:01   #214
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Honestly? I thought you couldn't be to deny baldfaced what you have said.
why deny what you said?

at times I wonder if we speak the same language

but all right, what the heck, I admit it : I did, after all, say Fox was a communist, anti business, eastern based (Moldova probably), medium.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:53:34   #215
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Yes, yes. Very good, very good. Let's sweep it all under the rug. Afterall, didn't mean what was said when it was said, so never anyone mind. Nosireebob.

That Roland guy though, he seems to have a salivation problem. That should be looked at. Never know, it could be serious.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:57:42   #216
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Sogt ausgrechnet da Obatrenza!
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Old 24-04-2003, 09:01:30   #217
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Did you have something to say to me there, Roland? Or are you just blowing wind as usual?
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Old 24-04-2003, 09:10:24   #218
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Genau wia i ma docht hob: es is absolut koa Unterschied.
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:21:08   #219
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Originally posted by maroule
I can't agree with that.
Reuters and Fow make mistakes and do silly analysis (and CNN is crap).

What makes them different is the intensity of the angle : a soft ideological angle in one (Reuters = liberal, western, pro business), a rabid ideological biais in the other (sanguine jingoistic, less than the Sun, but only slightly). Fox makes 'l'humanité' (the communist daily shere in France) seem balanced in its opinions.

Two questions :
- have you ever heard anything positive on France's action, or on France generally on Fox for the last year?
- Don't you find it surprising that ALL 200 newpapers (spread al over the world) owned by Murdoch support the war? Would you call that a freak coincidence?

In short, all media have biais, it's the virulence of it (and the objective decision to ignore facts that don't fit your glasses) that makes all the difference.


Besides, if it's 'sophisticated' to dump on Fox, you're placing the bar of sophistication very low indeed. Next you'll tell us that Cobra by S. Stalone was unjustly smeared by east coast intellectuals.
I've heard the embed reports that Fox had were praised by professional journalists. I've also seen some very silly, damning headlines from Reuters labeling the war a quagmire and such. Looks pretty dumb, now.
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:22:44   #220
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Originally posted by maroule
illustration on the French weapons : there is a huge difference between th treatment on facts


facts : Roland missile found in Irak, no idea of how or when they get there. No iraki served western weapons caused any US casualty during the conflict, as far as we know today.

Fairly normal understanding : If confirmed, it means that some companies, directly or indirectly, tried to make a few bucks in Irak. More probably indirectly, less risky, through a third party, either knowingly or not (example, I sell my weapons to Pakistan, a trusted ally, then he can do whatever he wants with it afterwards). That happened before or after the embargo.

Fox interpretation and innuendo: because of a serial number we don't understand (did we call the manufacturer to ask him about his codification - naaa, why bother), we can conclude the French government had extensive and recent dealings with Iraq. Probably arming them up until the last moment to kill US troops, but we won't say it clearly, we leave that to your appreciation. In other news pieces, however, we made very clear how much the French hate you, and are antisemitic.
Could you show me the specific sentences that support your view of the Newsweek (not Fox...get off that rabid kick) piece. I said some new French weapons were found. You asked for a link. I hope I satisfied your source please request. Now maybe you can go argue a larger (unstated) argument. OR you can always "sniff propoganda or lies" (without any proof of fabrication) the way that Roland (the person) does.
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:27:22   #221
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I really don't care if Fox or the Murdoch papers are pro-war. So was the WSJ. And it is the premier journalism outlet (in terms of pay for reporters and time allowed per story) in the world.

I'm not bitching about CNN or CBS or whatever being liberal. I'm sick of the Fox bitching also. Yeah they were sorta pro-war (in a way CNN was also) in terms of trumpeting the story and going for ratings. But that does not make me question their integirty or accuracy (any more than I always reserve a little caution with newsreports.) The pernicdious accomodation that CNN admitted to in Bagdhad is a lot more damining than Fox cheerleading or than Reuters nasty headlines, anyway.
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:30:25   #222
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Fox is selling on chauvinism. CNN is about as crappy, so not much difference there.

"I hope I satisfied your source please request."

Where?
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:42:45   #223
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:55:40   #224
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The original newsweek piece?

So they supposedly found Roland2 missiles, "no idea of how or when they get there" apart from "2002" showing up somewhere.
Newsweek gave at least both sides. Did that make it to Fox?

"OR you can always "sniff propoganda or lies" (without any proof of fabrication) the way that Roland (the person) does."

How do you approach government information? You seem to think it's true until proven otherwise, I think it's a lie until proven otherwise. There is no burden of proof.
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:57:17   #225
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Well, I was there. I saw the weapons.

So there. That's apparently the only proof you'll ever accept and now you've got it.
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Old 24-04-2003, 14:58:18   #226
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:00:53   #227
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The original newsweek piece?

So they supposedly found Roland2 missiles, "no idea of how or when they get there" apart from "2002" showing up somewhere.
Newsweek gave at least both sides. Did that make it to Fox?

"OR you can always "sniff propoganda or lies" (without any proof of fabrication) the way that Roland (the person) does."

How do you approach government information? You seem to think it's true until proven otherwise, I think it's a lie until proven otherwise. There is no burden of proof.
GET THE FOX rabbit out of your mouth. The story was by NEWSWEEK. Fox entered the discussion, when Mar asked for a source and said "Fox doesn't count". We then argued over merits of Fox, etc. But the story was Newsweek...
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:04:46   #228
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Fox is just funny, nothing else. But it's been a separate issue in this thread.

Newsweek has an anti-french spin in the headline and guiding text - or was that added my MSNBC?

The WSJ is usually ok, but the "premier journalism outlet (in terms of pay for reporters and time allowed per story) in the world"?
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:15:02   #229
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Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Fox is just funny, nothing else. But it's been a separate issue in this thread.

Newsweek has an anti-french spin in the headline and guiding text - or was that added my MSNBC?

The WSJ is usually ok, but the "premier journalism outlet (in terms of pay for reporters and time allowed per story) in the world"?
1. Agreed on the headline. The story is pretty straight though--it certainly does not sound like a fabrication. Has a person's name. Has the specific marking. (which is good, since it allowed the French response to be specific.)

2. Well at least you know which hole your Fox rabbit popped out of for this thread...

3. I was told this by a professionaly journalist. He didn't specify "the world" and may have been talking about the US market. I can confirm the part about the amount of time spent on stories, based on my reading of various dailies. I see more actual analysis in WSJ pieces. The other dailies (maybe even including the NYT) seem a little more pushed to churn out copy quickly.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:16:54   #230
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seen from here, nearly all US mainstream media, and all right leaning UK ones, have a biais -ranging from slight to intense- against the French. Edited : since the beginning of the crisis.

When it's more or less subtle, in a context of high quality journalism (i.e. The Economist), I can take it.

Exceptions, at least in the UK (I hardly read the US press, so can't talk about it), the Guardian (who even seems to have a pro-French biais) and the Independent (their correspondant in Paris John Linchfield is doing a splendid job, slamming France or acknowledging its merits whenever it seems due). I exchanged a few mails with him once. He told me he never understood the lack of impartiality from his countrymen on judging France. Either love or hate it, very rarely allowing for purely objective judgement.

More generally, I find the latest crisis very telling : I still don't understand why Turkey got so little stick from the US press, while taking a decision that was objectively far more damaging to the US war effort.

Last edited by maroule; 24-04-2003 at 15:19:31.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:21:42   #231
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"I can confirm the part about the amount of time spent on stories, based on my reading of various dailies. I see more actual analysis in WSJ pieces."

They at least get their facts straight. As for time spent on stories, doesn't strike me as particular, but maybe that's because I don't have other US papers in print (we have the WSJE here, to be precise).
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:26:41   #232
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I wonder if the anti-French bias you detect in the Us media is any worse than the anti-US stuff that we detect in your media.

In any case, there is a difference among public animosity of the populations, statements by politicians, editiorials, and fabrication of newstories. I'm enough of a "naive American" to beleive in telling the truth regardless of politics.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:27:36   #233
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"I wonder if the anti-French bias you detect in the Us media is any worse than the anti-US stuff that we detect in your media."

No comparison.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:30:07   #234
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Because we expect shit from Turkey. Being Arabs and all.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:34:10   #235
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I wonder if the anti-French bias you detect in the Us media is any worse than the anti-US stuff that we detect in your media.
here the line is clearly drawn between right leaning (neutral to objectively pro US, like France largest TV channel, TF1, or France largest newspaper, Le Figaro) and left (or center left, Libération or Canal+ tend to be more suspicious of the US)

I suspect you're hearing only about the portion of the press that's anti Bush.

That has to be separated from the population, where probably 60 to 70% who think Bush is a moron.

There is also a clear line being drawn in the media representation between americans (the left French press loving to worship all americans who oppose Bush), and their current government (indeed rarely getting positive coverage). But Clinton was God for all the French press. Nobody accused them of anti américanisme primaire then...
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:35:36   #236
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Because we expect shit from Turkey. Being Arabs and all.
Turks are NOT arabs.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:35:45   #237
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I got WSJE when I was in Zurich. I think WSJ regular edition is in some ways better. Not that I sense something "wrong" with WSJE. Just that regular one seems a little denser and meatier. I also sensed it being physically thicker.

My language isn't up to job of reading non-English newspapers so I can't comment on the amount of analysis, detail, quality of them. And have no idea how pay compares. CAn go ahead and amend my comment to one regarding the NA market. (My suspicion is that market dynamics would make the overall comparison similar. But don't know that. I would readily agree that for certain kinds of news (e.g. foreign affairs) there are better outlets at times. My comment was not to say that WSJ is the best paper--cause clearly they make decisions to concentrate on certain types of news. It was more about the feeling of quality you get in reading the stories. They seem closer in quality to what you would find in a magazine.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:41:02   #238
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I think a lot of the anti-French stuff is in popular media. Rush Limbaugh show. Bill O'reilly. Talk radio. Message boards stuff like that. That's how people feel.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:43:36   #239
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I already said that the anti-French stuff is more from the right 9and maybe the center) than from the Left.

I have to hear the anti-American crap all the time. about how arrogant we are and all this booshwah. Hear it even from my relatives.

I think that Mar, people are used to dumping on the US because it is implicitly ok to dump on the top guy. So you discount that stuff and are surprised by the reverse more...
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:44:27   #240
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"My language isn't up to job of reading non-English newspapers so I can't comment on the amount of analysis, detail, quality of them."

Varies widely. But even in the papers most critical of the US, there was nothing that even remotely compares to the outburst of hatred and chauvinism that characterize outlets like the NY Post or the Washington Times. The NY Times and WP seem to suffer some mix of ignorance and bias when reporting about europe in general, but that varies a lot. Then there are the objective quality papers. Finally there are some pro-american papers - that has no reflection in a pro-european US paper, at least none that I know of.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:45:43   #241
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"about how arrogant we are and all this booshwah."

The Bush administration is oozing a level of arragonce that makes your stomach turn. You really don't see that?
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:47:59   #242
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I agree that being the top guy will always attract recrimination, always has always will be

back on the subject of media representation, let's do a little test, to see the coverage and spin on a news piece like the one I insert. Please US posters tell me how this news is treated, in Fox of course (considering one of its former employee is accused) but also elsewhere, in the next few days.



U.S. Soldiers Questioned Over Stolen Iraqi Cash
Thu April 24, 2003 10:33 AM ET
AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar (Reuters) - The U.S. military is questioning some of its soldiers over the alleged theft of part of a multi-million-dollar haul of cash found in Baghdad, a spokesman at Central Command said on Thursday.
"We have questioned soldiers involved with the disappearance of monies found in Iraq on April 18," Lieutenant Mark Kitchens told Reuters. "At this point we believe money was taken."

He declined to say how many soldiers were under investigation or how much money had allegedly been stolen.

"All money found is the property of the Iraqi people," Kitchens said. "The riches of the nation of Iraq, whether money, oil or art, belong to the people and we intend to ensure they get it."

Members of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division stumbled on the cash, which amounted to more than $650 million in total, during an action to stop the looting which swept parts of the Iraqi capital when Saddam was toppled.

The money was stashed in a building whose windows had been bricked up to provide a hiding place, the U.S. military said. News reports said the money may have belong to members of Saddam's feared Baath Party.

Kitchens said unit commanders involved in the discovery of the cash had noticed some of the money was missing during the search operation. "The thefts to date were uncovered in a matter of hours," Kitchens said.

He said officers from the military's criminal investigation division had been called in to investigate the allegations of theft, the latest embarrassment for the U.S. military which has been criticized for not doing enough to protect valuable artifacts in Baghdad's main museum.

On Wednesday U.S. officials said they had charged one former Fox News employee and were investigating some returning journalists after seizing 15 paintings, gold-plated guns and other items taken from Iraq and smuggled into the United States.

In the past week, U.S. customs and immigration officials have seized paintings taken from the palace of one of Saddam Hussein's sons, found a cache of gold-plated weapons taken from an Iraqi government facility and confiscated Iraqi bonds, knives and other spoils of war.

Most of the people caught smuggling the items were reporters returning from covering the war in Iraq. But the gold-plated weapons were believed to have been looted by a member of the U.S. military and were in a shipment bound for a U.S. military base in Fort Stewart, Georgia.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:55:47   #243
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I haven't read this thread but I bet it's full of bullshit.
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Old 24-04-2003, 15:58:04   #244
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You could write that a gazillion times.

Or do a language comprehension test.

Or follow the LINKS!
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Old 24-04-2003, 16:03:57   #245
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Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
"about how arrogant we are and all this booshwah."

The Bush administration is oozing a level of arragonce that makes your stomach turn. You really don't see that?
How can you judge. You have no perspective. You obsess about the US and haven't even visited.

I don't think Bush is arrogant. I think he just won't play the game of letting people "Jewish mother him". Of being the tall guy who has to bend his head all the time. I don't think that is the same as arrogance.
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Old 24-04-2003, 16:31:19   #246
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Yes, I get to put on my Roland/maroule hat now.

Oh maroule that's just propaganda. You know like the story about the French weapons or the Iraqi doctors who fed the POWs against orders. You should wait until it's fully investigated because it's probably just bullshit.
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Old 24-04-2003, 16:46:39   #247
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Venom, this hat suits you, but I didn't ask for an editorial, or for a discussion over the content, I asked for how it will be, or not, featured in the rest of US press...
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Old 24-04-2003, 16:49:39   #248
maroule
Intermittent du spectacle
 
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and for the content, if some US soldiers or reporters wanted to play '3 kings', it won't teach me anything new, because I'm sure some French or Hindu, or Chilean or Nepalese nationals, or even myself might have done the same in similar circumstances.
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Old 24-04-2003, 17:14:49   #249
Venom
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Location: Rudolph's stable
No! I have the hat on so shut up and let me rant! When I wear this hat I don't have to get anywhere near a point, or make any sense whatsoever.
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Old 24-04-2003, 17:34:02   #250
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Mar the story got covered. I saw it before you brought it up. Fox covered it in a similar manner to how papers tend to cover stories about themselves. There was an FFZ thread on it. Somebody faulted Fox for calling the engineer an ex-Fox employee. But in general, it seemed that Fox handled the issue ok and did the right thing in firing the guy right away. Supposedly there was another journalist who did the same thing who didn't get fired (from a different employer).
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