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Old 23-04-2003, 21:44:47   #151
Dyl Ulenspiegel
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Just because someone puts a "2002" on me doesn't mean it's the latest version of me - and during the 1980s, the entire west sold its hardware to the Iraqis to do some testing on the Iranians.

"They didn't use you because you were already deployed."

Like that has ever stopped me...
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Old 23-04-2003, 21:55:14   #152
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That is correct, Roland. Just because the serial numbers have 2002 in them, doesn't necessarily mean that they were manufactured in 2002. However, there is supposed to be paperwork trails showing they were indeed manufactured in early/mid 2002, and sold mid/late 2002 to the Iraqi. I haven't seen this paper trail, so I cannot give you links to it. That is just what has been reported here.

Of course, we don't actually have any proof that Saddam actually did anything. We just had reports he did so. You know, a few people saying this or that against him. And we all know how people like to make up stories about their betters and spread them around like they were the truth. Plenty of such instances have even been documented, passed around as the truth, and then later shown they were entirely made up.

I have no trouble accepting French companies, even parts of the French government, selling arms to the Iraqi. After all, no UN resolution actually has legal binding power or legal repercussions. Just what your sovereign government decides to do and follow and enforce.

Of course, I have no trouble accepting that American companies, even parts of the American government, would have sold arms to the Iraqi if they had the opportunity. Regardless of any UN resolutions or sanctions. Companies are out to make a buck, and they probably could get a really good price in that situation.

Do you think that French businesses are all too moral, and screen all their employees to ensure they have higher then average business morality and ethics then the rest of the world?

And you can only be in one place at a time. At least, the last I heard...
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Old 23-04-2003, 22:05:21   #153
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"I have no trouble accepting French companies, even parts of the French government, selling arms to the Iraqi."

Neither have I, I just wonder about the source for this. Who reported this?
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Old 23-04-2003, 22:07:27   #154
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First place I heard it, was Fox news. It was also carried on MSNBC, ABC, and NBC from what little I followed it.
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Old 24-04-2003, 06:08:01   #155
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That would be standard procedure for a propaganda lie. Was that Fox's own story, or did they claim a government source?
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Old 24-04-2003, 06:29:15   #156
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Our media seems too stupid to follow DoD proproganda. And they cannot manage to follow WH proproganda for long. Whether they are trying to or not.

I don't recall what they attributed it to, originally. It impressed me more they had video of some of the equipment for some of the follow up stories they ran. Maybe someone else that heard the stories remembers? A couple of the embedded journalists had been present when the 3rd and the 1st Marines found a couple of caches, AIR.
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Old 24-04-2003, 06:42:06   #157
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I only found this on foxnews:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83566,00.html

Not really convincing.

"Our media seems too stupid to follow DoD proproganda. "

Maybe, but they parrot it quite nicely.
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Old 24-04-2003, 06:46:32   #158
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I saw most of the news stories about this on the tube.

I had read about the serial numbers on the stuff including 2002 as part of it's base, but that didn't mean anything, without knowing how they generate their serial numbers.
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Old 24-04-2003, 06:51:36   #159
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Darn. The serial number story had been featured on my ISP's home page. They carry articles from very sources, and don't archive them. And I didn't bother to save off a local copy of it, as I didn't think I'd need to link back to its original source (they don't always list that, much of the time either). AP? ABCNEWS? New York Times? Washington Post? Darn. Humm... I wonder if I can Google that up...
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Old 24-04-2003, 06:53:56   #160
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Google spits this up:

http://washingtontimes.com/commentar...1-98894060.htm
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Old 24-04-2003, 06:58:17   #161
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Also this:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...6-100730-3154r

That lists Newsweek as the initial source...
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:00:10   #162
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That's a pretty shaky article.

There's no proof that the arms weren't supplied to Iraq by 3rd parties.

Sales of Gas masks do not prove the existence of NBC weapons.

A great deal was made of the fact that Manuals for Chemical Warfare and NBC suits were found in Iraqi storage areas, the US armed forces also had NBC suits and manuals for chemical warfare, this only shows preparation, not ownership.

The WMD 'finds' referred to in the article have all been debunked, by US laboratory testing.

It's a pretty poor effort to shore up you argument DS.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:01:46   #163
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Few more listed in Google. They all pretty much line up with the first link. Only the second one states that the Roland 2's weren't manufactured past 1998. Of course, the Roland 3 is identical to the 2 to the non geeky, and it was manufactured recently. Humm...
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:04:30   #164
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I was just looking for links, Scott. The reports I heard and seen had all been on the boob tube. Except for the 2002 being in the serial numbers of the Roland 2s news short. That was what got me interested in what Google may have.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:07:22   #165
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It's just the links really don't do anything but detract from your argument.

Yes the Iraqis had modern weaponry, manafactured since the sanctions were implemented, but where did they come from?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:15:17   #166
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A commentary, aka "let's jerk off what we want to believe"?

I'll see if I find that article on Stern. Btw, Roland is usually used as an integrated system with an armored vehicle AFAIK, not man-portable.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:18:54   #167
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I really don't see how the links do either support or deny, Scott. They seem like two different opinions/stories about the same thing. One says one thing, another says something else. But I figure this is matter most have already made up their mind on, and facts will just get in the way.

But it's late, so maybe I'm just too tired to see anything else at the moment?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:23:11   #168
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Google listed 10 articles. 7 were like the first, commentary that included mention of that newsweek piece, or each other mentioning it. One was totally unrelated on some actor named Roland, and the last bit which seemed to be much less proprogandly aimed.

I had really just wanted to find the article that had been repeated on my ISP, but they don't have archival rights to the newspieces they run. Which is quite common, apparently, in the digital medium...
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:28:42   #169
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My bad, I thought you were posting links relevant to your argument.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:36:25   #170
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Sorry... I should have been more clear. Getting close to my bed time.

Humm... well, in digging in Google's general info...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-equipment.htm

And that has links off it describing Rolands...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ope/roland.htm

humm... Vehicle mounted or fixed shelter. I suppose some Iraq general may have been considering fixed shelter?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:38:03   #171
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If caught he would deny it, of course.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:42:17   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by GP
2. Fox is as trustworthy as Reuters, etc. They both had some silly analysis and biases. And both had mistakes and valid reporting. It is just part of the "too cool" pseudosophistication to dump on Fox.

I can't agree with that.
Reuters and Fow make mistakes and do silly analysis (and CNN is crap).

What makes them different is the intensity of the angle : a soft ideological angle in one (Reuters = liberal, western, pro business), a rabid ideological biais in the other (sanguine jingoistic, less than the Sun, but only slightly). Fox makes 'l'humanité' (the communist daily shere in France) seem balanced in its opinions.

Two questions :
- have you ever heard anything positive on France's action, or on France generally on Fox for the last year?
- Don't you find it surprising that ALL 200 newpapers (spread al over the world) owned by Murdoch support the war? Would you call that a freak coincidence?

In short, all media have biais, it's the virulence of it (and the objective decision to ignore facts that don't fit your glasses) that makes all the difference.


Besides, if it's 'sophisticated' to dump on Fox, you're placing the bar of sophistication very low indeed. Next you'll tell us that Cobra by S. Stalone was unjustly smeared by east coast intellectuals.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:44:01   #173
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And an official French response can be found here:
http://www.info-france-usa.org/news/...g/us160403.asp

Bottom of page.

Who would deny it?

The statements in this linked piece points out that the Iraqi could just have stuck/swapped parts around, as there is no hardware differences between the 2 and the 3. That as far as they know, no 3's were sold to Iraq, but of course someone could illegally resale 3s to Iraq if the want to. And they'd like to know how you can tell the difference between used 2s and 3s launchers.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:45:32   #174
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Originally posted by maroule
What makes them different is the intensity of the angle : a soft ideological angle in one (Reuters = liberal, western, pro business)
Sorry, you blew it right there. Liberal = soft ideology? Please!

Fox is not Western? Is not pro business?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:48:43   #175
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Maybe sensationalist was what you were looking for?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:50:06   #176
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There's a news broadcast that isn't sensationalist? On the boob tube?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:50:33   #177
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Humm... what's the slant on that Naked News?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:50:45   #178
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Matter of degree, maybe.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:51:13   #179
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Tabloid?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:56:24   #180
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What? Like ET and Hard Copy and 20/20 and those other broadcast zines?
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:56:29   #181
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illustration on the French weapons : there is a huge difference between th treatment on facts


facts : Roland missile found in Irak, no idea of how or when they get there. No iraki served western weapons caused any US casualty during the conflict, as far as we know today.

Fairly normal understanding : If confirmed, it means that some companies, directly or indirectly, tried to make a few bucks in Irak. More probably indirectly, less risky, through a third party, either knowingly or not (example, I sell my weapons to Pakistan, a trusted ally, then he can do whatever he wants with it afterwards). That happened before or after the embargo.

Fox interpretation and innuendo: because of a serial number we don't understand (did we call the manufacturer to ask him about his codification - naaa, why bother), we can conclude the French government had extensive and recent dealings with Iraq. Probably arming them up until the last moment to kill US troops, but we won't say it clearly, we leave that to your appreciation. In other news pieces, however, we made very clear how much the French hate you, and are antisemitic.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:57:14   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
humm... Vehicle mounted or fixed shelter. I suppose some Iraq general may have been considering fixed shelter?
And the dumbass in the WT, Goebbles' favourite newspaper: "the "Roland 2," France's best man-portable air defense weapon."

It's a bit big, ain't it? Guess the radar gets mounted on the head.

http://www.panzerbaer.de/guns/bw_roland1-a.htm

I could not find the article in Stern. Most likely because it doesn't exist.
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Old 24-04-2003, 07:59:31   #183
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Btw, Maroule, which "liberal" did you mean?
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:00:27   #184
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Quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Sorry, you blew it right there. Liberal = soft ideology? Please!

Fox is not Western? Is not pro business?

Read more carefully. Both are liberal, western, pro business, like most of the western press. One is much more rabid than the other.

IMO liberal is a 'soft' ideology, as opposed to islamism, communism, extreme right, that are 'hard' ideologies. It doesn't mean, in my words, that it's not structured or valid, it means it's less likely to lead to a slaughter of people not agreeing with you.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:01:54   #185
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Actually, Maroule, on Monday, Foxnews ran a sound bite that said that the French is 70% Muslim now, according to the French Government estimates based on its last census. That was followed by commentary on them being extremist Muslims, and we will need to go in there and clean up your house again. But hey, that was from one of the rabid foamer sets Fox has on staff, so I ignored it.

Is France now 70% Muslim? That sounded a bit high to me, and I thought I'd ask a frenchmen. (French patriot? Citizen? What is the proper term?)
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:01:59   #186
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Btw, Maroule, which "liberal" did you mean?
I meant liberal the french way (center right, pro business), like Le Figaro, Les Echos, Alain Madelin, etc.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:04:15   #187
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
Actually, Maroule, on Monday, Foxnews ran a sound bite that said that the French is 70% Muslim now
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:04:39   #188
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Well, liberals here kill just as many as conservative. They just generally take longer to do it. Slower and more painful, less dignified.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:04:58   #189
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"according to the French Government estimates based on its last census."

Oh goddamn fucking weirdness, that's a gem. Pure genius.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:05:42   #190
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You like that Roland?
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:06:27   #191
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FYI, more like 7 %, maximum 10 %. Due to the principle of laicisme, french census data have no information on religion since I think 1905.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:07:11   #192
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
Actually, Maroule, on Monday, Foxnews ran a piece that said that the French is 70% Muslim now, according to the French Government estimates based on its last census. That was followed by commentary on them being extremist Muslims, and we will need to go in there and clean up your house again. But hey, that was from one of the rabid foamer sets Fox has on staff, so I ignored it.

Is France now 70% Muslim? That sounded a bit high to me, and I thought I'd ask a frenchmen. (French patriot? Citizen? What is the proper term?)
I would if that didn't make me

I can't believe they said that. It's like saying 95% of americans are bible belt doctor shooting christian extremists

I won't check the exact percentage but top of my head France is still about 85% christian (in words, probably 50% agnostic or atheist, for the rest much more catholics than protestants), 5 to 8% muslim at the very maximun, a few % jew and other.


Proper term is till French. I'm not a 'patriot' because when my country fucks up, and it does so on a daily basis, I want the freedom to say it.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:07:16   #193
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
You like that Roland?
Absolutely. It's an extreme example, but it's symptomatic of the rightwing fantasy world.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:08:51   #194
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But maybe you just misunderstood. Hell, even Fox can't be that stupid.

Hmm... okay, they can, but still...
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:10:44   #195
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Maroule, no problem. I knew the exact French I was going to ask. Just to see your reaction. I didn't expect the bonus out of Roland.

Hey, CNN is proven bad at all math operations. I suppose that just shows Foxnews is bad with decimal places...
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:10:48   #196
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Originally posted by maroule
Read more carefully. Both are liberal, western, pro business, like most of the western press. One is much more rabid than the other.

IMO liberal is a 'soft' ideology, as opposed to islamism, communism, extreme right, that are 'hard' ideologies. It doesn't mean, in my words, that it's not structured or valid, it means it's less likely to lead to a slaughter of people not agreeing with you.
I read it again. And bullshit. That is not what you said.

What makes them different is the intensity of the angle : a soft ideological angle in one (Reuters = liberal, western, pro business), a rabid ideological biais in the other (sanguine jingoistic, less than the Sun, but only slightly). Fox makes 'l'humanité' (the communist daily shere in France) seem balanced in its opinions.

I don't see 'both are.' Care to explain it?
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:13:14   #197
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That's exactly what he said.

NYE and GP make me wonder whether the atlantic has become a real communication barrier.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:14:35   #198
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HARR HARR
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:17:46   #199
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Well, let me try to see whether I comprehend english.

"What makes them different is the intensity of the angle"

Which seems to imply to me that the angle as such is the same.

Maybe we can ask all native english speakers here who has the comprehension problem.
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Old 24-04-2003, 08:18:24   #200
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Editing bastard.
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