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Old 02-04-2003, 21:01:13   #201
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A link that Tassadar followed and got banned all to hell as well.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:03:21   #202
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A link from Poly.
Yeah, linking to other sites sounds like a bannable offence to me.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:05:36   #203
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Encouraging someone to go and flame them could be. Depending on how the admins felt.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:07:46   #204
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Forum invasion-style? Yeah, I can agree with that, it was just the way it was phrased.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:12:12   #205
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I believe Mad Monk unintentionally oversimplified the situation, but that is the true reasoning.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:24:59   #206
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Maroule... we had a discussion about that matter. You did make a cut to him, through his lost friends. You have stated here that you meant no insult to his friends, only Chris, but still... :shrug:

I've had to deal with lots worse, so I can get over an out of line remark.

This site does have certain very strong anti-americanism posters, RC. Although at this time, there is less general support from the posting community that bother to go along with the raving ones, so it doesn't feel like a gang fight. Those anti-americans used to be balanced out by some of the lost posters. But that's alright. Ignore function works well on this forum. I'm just slow to put people on ignore.

There have been plenty of times that I've found this forum to be just absolute crap. At those times, I just didn't post here. Of course, this forum is generally crap, so going to absolute is just a small step down. Give it a few days, and it will probably rise back to its normal level of crap. Besides, I've got plenty to entertain me at the moment.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:30:40   #207
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Now that you're posting again, it will definitely raise the level of crap.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:33:02   #208
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Rising crap lifts all boats?
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:33:21   #209
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Actually, Lurker, with you and RC posting, our level of crap should rise well. I just add fiber.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:38:13   #210
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You leave RC alone. He's on my Buddy List.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:39:44   #211
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Where's your Buddy List? And I thought RC was on everyone's Buddy List...
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:49:46   #212
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This site does have certain very strong anti-americanism posters, RC. Although at this time, there is less general support from the posting community that bother to go along with the raving ones, so it doesn't feel like a gang fight. Those anti-americans used to be balanced out by some of the lost posters.
Anti-Americanism (or what some Americans perceive as such) is not a problem of CG alone. CG simply reflects what's going on in the world today. The majority of people are against the war and anti-American sentiments are growing everywhere. People simply feel more 'left' than 'right' in this case. So I think CG is actually quite normal.

If you're radically right-wing and pro-war you'll get a lot of criticism everywhere, not only on CG.
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Old 02-04-2003, 21:54:08   #213
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I dunno. If you believe the media you would here that most people are anti-American (using Dyl’s definition), but I am only friends with about three people that are so. Most of my friends are, as I am, vaguely centrist. In Europe and other more enlightened places, like cities, this may not be the case, and this is purely ancedotal. I just prefer to judge each issue relatively independently.
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Old 02-04-2003, 22:18:10   #214
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Mightytree... I disagree with your statement. CG is merely representative of ourselves. We are not, however, representitive of the world.

And our virtual presense are not true reflections of ourselves. They are distorted, with certain traits and characteristics made more extreme, while muting our natural in person presence. Our virtual presense is like us in a fun house mirror.

SOME posters do not a site make. However, from what I've seen, this forum became rather nationalistic with the general tribalism and drum beating and bashing that was going on. A whole lot of people that seem marginally one way or the other got polorized over the whole deal.

I did notice, Roland didn't. He stayed exactly the same. That actually suggests things to me.

I actually like Roland. I just find his fascination with putting the blame on America for everything (currently) interesting. I haven't met many people over the age of 21 that still do that. Most of those people, I don't want to associate in person. Roland presents an opportunity for me to learn and study and understand. And when he isn't politically damning Americana to hell, he can be quite entertaining in a fun way.

I don't know enough people to say whether the majority of people are against the war. I know that the same majority of people are against rape, torture, and people living in constant fear. No, I'm not actually trying to cast this in the light of 'Bringing Freedom to the Iraqi people'. But I am pointing out that the average joe teacup is actually a cold, callous human who doesn't give a shit about their fellow human being. They are against things that might interfere with their lives, or adversely impact their life.

There is a very good chance that some bad feelings will come out of this. If I'm european, then some extremist might plant a bomb on the tube and that could then royally screw my day. Or worse yet, harm me.

There's tons of ways this could be bad, and the closer you are to the action, the more concerned you are. That's what I do notice.

I finally figured out why many of the people in the Middle East doesn't like seeing America come in. They had 30 years to get used to Saddam's practices. So Americans using that as an excuse/justification just doesn't fly. That's like me using the excuse that your grand-dad used to beat up my grand-dad, so I'm going to kick your ass. It's ancient history, and doesn't affect them personally. Big Bad America coming in, though, does. Wherever our government goes, also goes our worst corporations, and they are some serious bastards even by our standards. Then there is the devil unknown. They know the devil that's there... but there's lots to worry about whenever change happens. We tend to think of change as a good thing. But that isn't historically accurate. Change tends to be a bad thing, and they haven't a real history of changes being good. Especially not when imposed by someone.

Sorry... ruminating there. No serious rant intended.

Still, on the issue of Anti- anything. From what I've seen, most people's definitions tend to be Anti-whatever I am = not agreeing with me, Anti-anything else = showing a obvious bias against it. I don't think I follow that sensitivity as a rule, but hey, it's hard to be objective when it's you, you know?
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Old 02-04-2003, 22:31:23   #215
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Darkstar,

Assuming I am not on your ignore list, then I agree with quite a lot of that.

I do not think that you can accuse this forum as a matter of language, of being "nationalistic" (international as it is). There are others, however, that I shall not mention that include such a definition in their banners.

Now. More seriously. I, for one, do not agree with Dyl, or for that matter, with maroule on many issues (particularly the "blame America for the lot" one - Dyl, maroule a deliberate stereotype, do not shout at me) but I, like you and others, have not gone scurrying for the bunker. In the cases of those that have, though, this tells me something about their willingness and open-mindedness to deal with a life outside their own views (or, dare I say, prejudices). Presumably, some further slight will occur in later life and a forum for "right handed humorless (sic) republican rottveiler owners and friends thereof" will presumably be realised.
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Old 02-04-2003, 22:50:47   #216
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I hadn't noticed Maroule blames everything on the Americans. I did notice him making fun of certain American posters and their attitudes. Did I miss Maroule's treaty on how everything that is wrong in his life can be traced back to Wilson? Or George Washington?

I can understand why a few of those that left, did so. I'd stop drinking at the pub where 1 out of every 10 people that bothered to talk, sniped at me. When you go somewhere to relax and kick back, that isn't exactly conducive to relaxing. Unless you are one sick punk like myself, who enjoys arguing just to hear my own voice and see the pain it causes to people.

And you will recall, all the comments about Eurotwats and EuroDweebs and EuroTrash, etc etc etc, was getting under even your skin. It got under others as well, which kept the sniping going, which kept the other sniping going, ad naseum.

Now, there are two happy ponds, big enough for all the frogs to croak in without them trying to drown each other out...
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:02:25   #217
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Darkstar,

Exactly. But I did not run away (nor did you) and I do not come from a large country which over the years has developed a reputation for not understanding the rest of the world and not wanting to understand the rest of the world.

The fact is, it is different outside than in.

In that context, those that profess that we are all complete idiots, completely wrong and completely insignificant on this side of the pond (including those allies that provide troops for target practice) choose to run away so they can have a good laugh and run us down in their boys club is for me quite chilling for future good relations on this planet. I think that says a lot about them.
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:08:13   #218
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Don't worry about that, RC.

I do think that traditionally, America has always had trouble understanding any other country's point of view. We tend to lean on our friends the English, pulling our bestest buds the Ozzies along with us, and do a quiet double check of everything with the Canadians on most matters of state.

Of course, that's only when we don't know exactly what we think on the matter. Then we just charge ahead, and the rest of you be damned. You'll come around to our point of view, although we might have to buy you all a few rounds down at the bar/pub afterward to make up for hurt feelings... (And we just won't mention it if it turns out badly. You know, do that cat thing. "It never happened/Go ahead and laugh right now, and never mention it again".)

That's my take on it, anyways. That's *very* American.
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:18:10   #219
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Darkstar,

That is also very understandable. If you are the biggest kid on the block then that is the way that sometimes things might (might need to ) get done.

I don't like that, but I can understand that.

What I can not understand or stand is that "how many towelheads have we toasted today", "let's keep the tanks running to Paris", "all Euroweenies are gay" tribalism.

The euroweenie thing really gets me as it shows a crass geographical ignorance and insults their own allies. And those brave cheerleaders will ignore that their forces have killed more of my countrymen over the past 14 days than the evil Iraqis.

That is why I think that place is a parody because they can not seriously maintain their viewpoint logically. For what is, as far as I can see, a largely one issue site then they choose their adjectives and insults extremely well to ensure that it remains so.

Maybe it is a form of therapy for them. A form of communication and a step towards greater understanding (which I always thought was something that followed) it certainly ain't.
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:20:02   #220
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DS ... I just meant that if the majority of people around the world are against the way the Bush administration is handling this mess then this will be the case on an internet forum too. And if anti-Americanism is growing, it will do so here too. I just thought you made it sound like this is only a specific CG thing. Look at Poly or any other forum, it's the same way there. A person's opinion doesn't change when he puts on his virtual alter ego.

What makes CG different from other places on the web is that it is hardly moderated, so things get out of hand rather easily. That's the problem of this place, and not that it's too anti-American or 'left' or whatever. It's like that everywhere this issue is discussed..
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:36:29   #221
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MT, because it feeds directly into our tribalism. You bash my tribe, and I'll bash yours back. It's a vicious cycle. And as that volume grows, that gets others tribalism up, and the volume continues to grow.

I don't count Poly. It's been so tribal for so long, I doubt most of the regulars would know what to do if the world was declared one big country... It's very biased in its enforcement on certain issues, so I don't expect it to be 'balanced' in the first place.

And for those few still reading this, I do think of CG as balanced to begin with. Because we don't enforce anything here. We've got some Pro, some Anti, and a whole lot of I don't give a flying fuck unless you are buying the beers...

As for the media claims... I remember that most media belongs to the VNN of one kind or another. So they play up whatever gets them the most eyeballs. For Al-jism, it's how many Iraqis are dieing and how much holy things are being damaged because the Coalition came to town. They aren't doing any of that balanced reporting, because they do not think their audience is interested in that. Or they wouldn't be watching THEM. Just like CNN and all the other guys aren't being balanced in their reporting. It's all slated to make the strongest impression that the broadcasters think will get your attention. Which means you will keep watching them. In web work, that's call eyeball stickiness. Gotta keep them mosquito brains fascinated/outraged, or they'll just wander away. You know, modern art.

RC, I'm afraid that most Americans do not see England as part of Euroland. You guys have impressed on us too strongly that you are your own thing... And that's for most Americans that remember you are over there in the first place. Sorry.

As far as FFZ goes... there's a bunch of former military there. And every dead Iraqi means our boys and girls are one bullet closer to victory, and coming home.
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:45:09   #222
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Darkstar,

Well the US needs to get used to that or at least hire some competent geography teachers. Still every word like that on THAT site offends me as much as they are offended by anything remotely French. It is something they need to get wise to and choose appropriate language. If they feel that we are their poodles then there is no better way of expressing their contempt for us. That is how it appears here.

Other than that mate, who is bringing the beer.
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:51:35   #223
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Agree with most of what you said Darkstar.

About Roland, I do think he's unfairly viewed upon by Americans. I think he's sometimes unfair to the US, but in discussions about the EU his opinions can be just a strong and he can be just as harsh The problem IMO is that Americans don't notice it, because discussions about internal EU affairs doesn't particularly interests Americans and there's little understanding of how the EU functions. (to a lesser degree that's also the case with Europeans)
A second problem is that Roland is a high-profile debater, he's knows a shitload, he's witty and he uses a colourful language (excuse the arse-licking here) and that makes him a popular target for sniping.
Finally, a third problem is that there are simply less discussion about Europe and the rest of the world than there are about the US, simply because what happens in the US (also domestic issues) affects the rest of the world to a great deal. I think many Americans fail to understand this, which is why they're indignated when Roland rumbles into discussions about the US, as an "outsider". (might be a good idea for him to develop more tact in this)

Quote:
And our virtual presense are not true reflections of ourselves. They are distorted, with certain traits and characteristics made more extreme, while muting our natural in person presence. Our virtual presense is like us in a fun house mirror.
So true. In my case, most people don't realise I often get berated for being pro-American (and condinong "Bush's fascist imperialism" - that's a quote, not my opinion) by Europeans but they never get to see that side of me on the net. The simple reason for that is that I tend to choose the side of the underdag. When a poster exclaims "American Imperialism" there are enough Americans reacting already, not need for me to jump in as well. IRL discussions, the opposite is often the case.
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:54:01   #224
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Who the hell is Roland? Is that Maroule, or Dyl? Or some other?
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:54:33   #225
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they and Chris are all the same person.
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Old 02-04-2003, 23:55:01   #226
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you really need to go to a course of AEs anonymous...
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:01:15   #227
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Annoying Englishmen anonymous?
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:05:10   #228
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Maybe. Alter Egos anonymous.

Am I really that annoying?
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:06:17   #229
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Not really... I am determined to keep you from controlling the entire right hand column though.


Now why don't you tell me which one is Roland so I can analyze this discussion better.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:07:40   #230
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Rolandyl is his LOTR name
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:31:45   #231
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Originally posted by Darkstar
Don't worry about that, RC.

I do think that traditionally, America has always had trouble understanding any other country's point of view. We tend to lean on our friends the English, pulling our bestest buds the Ozzies along with us, and do a quiet double check of everything with the Canadians on most matters of state.

Of course, that's only when we don't know exactly what we think on the matter. Then we just charge ahead, and the rest of you be damned. You'll come around to our point of view, although we might have to buy you all a few rounds down at the bar/pub afterward to make up for hurt feelings... (And we just won't mention it if it turns out badly. You know, do that cat thing. "It never happened/Go ahead and laugh right now, and never mention it again".)

That's my take on it, anyways. That's *very* American.
As an Australian (it's Aussie, not Ozzie), I must make one point quite clear.

When you are buying these rounds, please do not supply us with the watery donkey piss that you in the US jokingly refer to as beer.

Thankyou.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:32:53   #232
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Originally posted by Darkstar
Don't worry about that, RC.

I do think that traditionally, America has always had trouble understanding any other country's point of view. We tend to lean on our friends the English, pulling our bestest buds the Ozzies along with us, and do a quiet double check of everything with the Canadians on most matters of state.

Of course, that's only when we don't know exactly what we think on the matter. Then we just charge ahead, and the rest of you be damned. You'll come around to our point of view, although we might have to buy you all a few rounds down at the bar/pub afterward to make up for hurt feelings... (And we just won't mention it if it turns out badly. You know, do that cat thing. "It never happened/Go ahead and laugh right now, and never mention it again".)

That's my take on it, anyways. That's *very* American.
Something that was forgotten in all the trans-Atlanatic bashing, is that France wasn't against war at any price. It was essentially an issue of timing that differentiated both. (how much longer could the inspections continue) And the European public opinions thought the same about it. Only Germany was against war in all circumstances.
It was only when it became clear that the US would press ahead regardless of explicit SC approval and after major diplomatic fuck-ups that you got a very strong, broadly-based reaction against war. I don't know whether many Americans realise that failed diplomacy is what produced such a vicious popular reaction, but I'm afraid they don't.
(BTW, not to say that the French and German diplomatic conduct has been all that more admirable, they really blew it by alienating potential allies like Powell)

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Old 03-04-2003, 00:33:50   #233
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Thanks RC- by the way, since ozscott isn't replying, you can now post in the thread that says you may not.

Ozscott- did you mean to do anything besides quote Darkstar?
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:34:18   #234
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And how much longer could France get away with selling weapons.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:34:47   #235
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Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Who the hell is Roland? Is that Maroule, or Dyl? Or some other?
Dyl.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:40:06   #236
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With their level of entrepreneurial talent? Without Government subsidy?

Not very long at all, I would venture.

The possibilities to continue to sell weapons at commercial prices without discrimination but for some over the rainbow political purpose will, unfortunately, diminish until the next big idea comes along. Sadly, that will affect the big defence contracting firms in the US and the UK. That is the price we pay.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:41:53   #237
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Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Thanks RC- by the way, since ozscott isn't replying, you can now post in the thread that says you may not.

Ozscott- did you mean to do anything besides quote Darkstar?
Jesus Mary, give me some time. Everything is now as it should be.

Except that I'm posting here instead of doing my vitally important work.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:46:39   #238
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Well, I don't understand why you would quote and then post later.

But for your points- I'm afraid it isn't yet clear here that it was a big diplomatic fuckup on OUR part that led to the "we will veto no matter what" mentality. Which was also a very dangerous fuckup.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:48:05   #239
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fuckups are dangerous.

Pregnancy can be terminal if unplanned and unwanted
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:52:10   #240
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Well, I don't understand why you would quote and then post later.

There is much you do not understand, Grasshopper.

I fucked up, pure and simple.
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:56:31   #241
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put the ping pong balls back in your eyes then
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Old 03-04-2003, 00:58:17   #242
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My take is that Chris just can't take what he dishes out - and I'm not just talking about 9/11...

I've seen him be a real prick to posters on Poly and when they lose it, he just kept on pushing the buttons.

Thing is, you do the same and he loses it big time, actually threatening you with violence etc.

The fact that he's scuttled off to FFZ where he can crush any opinions contrary to his shows us (ironically) just what a cheese eating surrender monkey he is...

I have no doubt whatsoever why my login was deleted over there...
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:02:19   #243
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P.S. I have nothing against US posters in general, there are still a number of perfectly reasonable US posters still on this forum and I even respect Venom as at least he gives as good as he gets...
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:05:45   #244
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From the outside, I think there is some truth there.

This guy was really keen on pushing people here because he thought it funny and when people kicked back he complained that people took everything too seriously. When one poster, who did not know Chris' 9/11 history, took him at his word then he started issuing threats worthy of an Iraqi information minister.

I think the logon deletia on FFZ, as explained by Darkstar, were not intended. However, the "keep out" sign to non-cheerleaders probably is. I think it would be cheaper for all concerned there just to buy a mirror and then they would not need to post or read anything.
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:06:31   #245
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My login was still there a couple of days ago. Guess I've been a good boy to them.
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:11:15   #246
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ARF ARF
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:18:00   #247
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First, address the ball.

"Helloooooo, ball".
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:19:40   #248
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Sorry... for those of you who may have hoped to see some enlightening post by me.

I'm too stupid for that. :-P~~
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:23:12   #249
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YES I'm in the non-resonable category!
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Old 03-04-2003, 01:29:05   #250
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Summary please.
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