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Old 29-06-2015, 15:01:43   #51
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"and Love Songs"

Being a big Paul Simon fan, I can't help but add that to the thread title every time I read it.
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Old 29-06-2015, 15:08:14   #52
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Old 29-06-2015, 15:40:53   #53
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50 ways to leave the euro....
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Old 29-06-2015, 16:48:53   #54
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Will Greece slip out the back, Jack?
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Old 29-06-2015, 17:02:50   #55
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Old 29-06-2015, 18:39:26   #56
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Old 29-06-2015, 19:07:52   #57
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Old 29-06-2015, 21:13:56   #58
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1. About how much public money, imf echo etc., has been spent since the beginning of the crisis. Iow good money after bad.

2. Wouldn't it just have been better to let it all go crash years ago?

3. Why does a default have to affect what currency Greece uses. What is to stop them just cutting all debt service and funding new spending from what they collect in euros. Maybe sell a few assets if needed. Why is having a devaluable currency wanted so much. I mean who will take it if about to be devalued. Unless maybe it is a stealth means to lower govt the ages and pensions?
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Old 29-06-2015, 22:09:58   #59
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Old 30-06-2015, 03:07:19   #60
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Maybe Greece can teach Illinois what to do. This state is billions in debt and doesn't have a budget, which is, you know, kind of needed to pay for things starting in a couple of days.
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Old 30-06-2015, 05:18:58   #61
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Greece can default and keep the Euro. In theory.

In practice, their banks go belly up as they do not have sufficient collateral and are already on a special refinancing line from the ECB. So they need a parallel currency (state vouchers, whatever) to keep going.
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Old 30-06-2015, 07:10:14   #62
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Parallel currency?
Ah, cigarettes!
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Old 30-06-2015, 07:13:00   #63
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:31:35   #64
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:41:41   #65
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Greece can default and keep the Euro. In theory.

In practice, their banks go belly up as they do not have sufficient collateral and are already on a special refinancing line from the ECB. So they need a parallel currency (state vouchers, whatever) to keep going.
The zombie banks seems like a separate problem. I'm talking about the federal budget. What is to stop the government from just defaulting on all bonds. Then going pay as you go with vendors. And funding their welfare programs from current receipts. They are close to break even with thought debt support.

Let the banks go crash. If they are rotten they are rotten.
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:43:49   #66
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That's so cute
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:47:18   #67
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I don't see why the euros are getting into the minutia of Greek pensions either. They should just worry about if the Greeks can pay him back or not. Why put themselves into the position of micromanaging budget. Let the Greeks decide if they cut military or domestic or sell assets or even default.

Seems like would have been better to just get it over years ago.
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:50:29   #68
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Subtle thoughts indeed
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:50:52   #69
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OTOH you can't stay 12 years old forever, can you?
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:51:38   #70
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Rotten Tomatenmark? Or Tomatenmarkrotten?
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:56:42   #71
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Hmm.... let's see: The banks go belly up. So most finacial transactions are on hold. People and businesses can't dispose over their accounts. For things like... uhm.. paying taxes.

The taxman collects olives and pays salaries and pensions in olives.

Seems like a good plan. Syriza style.
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:06:20   #72
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:11:51   #73
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:25:04   #74
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Paiktis, I do have some sympathy for Greece, because they are being shafted.

But they did shaft themselves in the first place to get themselves into this situation - so my sympathy is limited because it is a democracy and the people themselves voted for their fucked up governments (not necessarily the present one) in a fucked up country...

However, if I were Greek, I'd vote to 'do an Iceland', because it is clear that this 'austerity' is really the rich and powerful fucking Greece up the a$$ to get their money back - AND charging interest to add insult injury...

You guys best get out sooner, rather than later, because the EU doesn't give a shit about you - apart from getting their money back...

Once you've got out, I'd go and round up all the past governments and the rich that benefited from the previous state of affairs and expropriate their assets and throw them into jail!

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...P=share_btn_fb

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Old 30-06-2015, 12:34:30   #75
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Hmm.... let's see: The banks go belly up. So most finacial transactions are on hold. People and businesses can't dispose over their accounts. For things like... uhm.. paying taxes.

The taxman collects olives and pays salaries and pensions in olives.

Seems like a good plan. Syriza style.
They are private entities Roland. Let them fail. People can go pay cash or open new banks if th y choose. You are just delaying the ineditable and making private losses public.
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:35:11   #76
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Well, Stiglitz is being obtuse. "almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there." - So Greece did not run up the debt up to 2008. The banks just showed up and said "you owe us a few hundred billion".

Greece ran a huge foreign account deficit and had inflated its ecomony with excessive debt. That would have been a crash either way.

The problem is that unlike Spain, Portugal or Ireland, Greece is still digging its own grave. But for the outcome: Yes, leave the euro, devalue your new currency. It's the only other option.
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:35:35   #77
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tco, where will people get "cash"?
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:48:18   #78
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I meant 5 years old.
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:53:01   #79
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Well, Stiglitz is being obtuse. "almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there." - So Greece did not run up the debt up to 2008. The banks just showed up and said "you owe us a few hundred billion".

Greece ran a huge foreign account deficit and had inflated its ecomony with excessive debt. That would have been a crash either way.

The problem is that unlike Spain, Portugal or Ireland, Greece is still digging its own grave. But for the outcome: Yes, leave the euro, devalue your new currency. It's the only other option.
I do basically agree. But as usual, it is the people that are not responsible for this mess that are getting shafted.

On another note, have you got a spare 3 euros?
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Old 30-06-2015, 12:57:38   #80
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tco, where will people get "cash"?
Tourists. And people who buy olives. And sell real estate. And their mattresses.

Just basic sales of gods and services.
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:08:25   #81
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Well, Stiglitz is being obtuse. "almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there." - So Greece did not run up the debt up to 2008. The banks just showed up and said "you owe us a few hundred billion".

Greece ran a huge foreign account deficit and had inflated its ecomony with excessive debt. That would have been a crash either way.

The problem is that unlike Spain, Portugal or Ireland, Greece is still digging its own grave. But for the outcome: Yes, leave the euro, devalue your new currency. It's the only other option.
Why not just stiff the creditors but continue to use that nice yummy stable currency. During the Cold War a lot of the black market in commie countries used dollars. It's just a medium of exchange. Why not use a stable existing euro. Greece federal budget is about break even if they welsh on their bonds.

Also I wouldn't worry about the trade deficit. That will get worked out the hard way. Anyone selling to Greek govt can just require cash. Same with untrustworthy companies or individuals. This is really not so strange Roland. Businesses do credit checks on customers and decide on terms. Lots of other poor countries govt have to pay cash. And in minerals cash settlement is common as there are a lot of flakes doing business. If the hairy fookers lack money then they can do without and the trade deficit will change as a result
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:12:28   #82
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Tourists. And people who buy olives. And sell real estate. And their mattresses.

Just basic sales of gods and services.
Did I say five? HAHAHAHA, marvellous.
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:17:00   #83
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I wonder if Greece has any oil or natural gas to frack. Serious.

Remember Roland all true wealth comes from the ground. Not your Enron dot com financier macro Econ games.
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:22:36   #84
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A physiocratic Georgist, I presume?
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:24:02   #85
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Switzerland is doomed.
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:27:39   #86
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unless they manage to dig up some olive motherlode
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:31:09   #87
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A physiocratic Georgist, I presume?
Too smart for me man. Don't get it.

But srsly dude. Don't cyp and Israel have some nat gas. Maybe the trend extends into the Aegean and Ionian seas. And there's a big market in Europe.
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:57:00   #88
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"Why not use a stable existing euro."

Montenegro and Kosovo do. But Greece is probably too big for that, and does not have a sufficient inflow of Euros. Anyway, this would mean they have to continue the internal devaluation.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:04:00   #89
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"Why not use a stable existing euro."

Montenegro and Kosovo do. But Greece is probably too big for that, and does not have a sufficient inflow of Euros. Anyway, this would mean they have to continue the internal devaluation.
Well they have some now cause that is what they use. Not sure why size should matter. After all the currency sustains current Greece being in euro. So circulation would be similar. If it appreciates because more cash in circulation so be it. Macro weenies can handle that at wherever euros are issued. Besides that's not greeces problem.

I don't understand second sentence.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:06:52   #90
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2nd sentence: Greece is not competitive.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:14:34   #91
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"Why not use a stable existing euro."

Montenegro and Kosovo do. But Greece is probably too big for that, and does not have a sufficient inflow of Euros. Anyway, this would mean they have to continue the internal devaluation.
How do Montenegro and Kosovo get their euros. Your question from before. I assume they just sell stuff and then sell amongst themselves. For the Greeks it's even easy. No transition of an existing currency needed. They are already using euros.

If there are bad debts amongst the Greeks that is a different issue than the currency. Just let those unwind. Nothing like getting stiffed to make people more careful in future. And nothing like a bailout to promote continued irresponsibility.

And for those greeks who have cash on hand things should be great. Nothing like having money during a recession. The world is your oyster. The other people can just sell goods and services. Supply and demand still exist.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:21:28   #92
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2nd sentence: Greece is not competitive.
That's their choice Roland. Not everyone appreciates a culture where you go to the Bakker and make 100k driving a truck and 300k as a rig manager. And then the next month you are laid off with no package. I mean I think it's fucking cool. And it makes it possible to ramp up and down very well. But if they choose to be more socialist that is their deal. Let them.

Just don't loan them money. And if you did before then why continue for 4 more years. And especially if it is private entities making loans then let them take it in the ass when the socialist sun boys default.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:42:50   #93
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This guy says you should have just gotten it over with in 2010 with a default. Also that the funds provided were a govt bailout if German and French banks. You have banksters, there too, Roland.

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/anil...sis_june29.pdf
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Old 30-06-2015, 15:42:30   #94
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http://econbrowser.com/archives/2015...ng-greeks-debt

This guy says they are still well in deficit even without debt payments. More work needed when they default I guess. But also more reason to cut them off and not keep spending money on them. Good money after bad.

Also says it was a bailout of German banks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/op...ctor.html?_r=0

This guy says they are too socialistic. He's greek too.
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Old 30-06-2015, 15:49:20   #95
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Man I hope we let PR go boom. Let the bond holders take it in the butt. Let pr deal with pay as you go from vendors. And they can tighten their belt if not enough money to fund purchases and payments. And do without if people refuse to give them credit. It's not like anyone can seize assets so I don't think they ev n need br protection.
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Old 30-06-2015, 17:33:49   #96
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What about this idea: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche
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Old 30-06-2015, 19:40:27   #97
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Old 30-06-2015, 19:57:17   #98
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I love how we italians nominate ourselves as the least trustworthy.
Self consciousness
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Old 30-06-2015, 20:38:07   #99
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It's called "being realistic"
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Old 30-06-2015, 20:40:08   #100
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And Poland is very schizo when comes to trust Germans.
TRUST US. THAT'S AN ORDER, PIGDOGS!
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