Counterglow Forums  

Go Back   Counterglow Forums > General Discussions > Film, Fiction and Writing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 24-07-2004, 01:29:27   #101
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Have you read Shadowlands? Have you read his biography?
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 08:44:17   #102
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Quote:
Bullshit. The order as far as the kids (who are the protagonists) goes in the order written.
My dear sir, if I am interpreting your rather inebriated and somewhat fragmented statement correctly, I have to beg to differ. There is some evidence indicating that Mr. Lewis did not know that the series would continue beyond the first book, or the second, etc., and that subsequent books in the body of work were undertaken to edify what was becoming a popular collection. This in no way verifies that the written order was the ultimately intended one, in fact, in a letter to a young American fan, Lewis seems to show a slight inclination toward the chronological. To wit:
Quote:
'I think I agree with your order {i.e. chronological} for reading the books more than with your mother's. The series was not planned beforehand as she thinks. When I wrote The Lion I did not know I was going to write any more. Then I wrote P. Caspian as a sequel and still didn't think there would be any more, and when I had done The Voyage I felt quite sure it would be the last. But I found as I was wrong. So perhaps it does not matter very much in which order anyone read them. I'm not even sure that all the others were written in the same order in which they were published.

Quoted in "Letters to Children"
Your statement that "Bullshit. The order as far as the kids (who are the protagonists)--gee, thanks for pointing that out...almost had to break out my MLA handbook to verify that one! goes in (sic, or, in your case "hic!") the order written" is so eloquently worded, so strongly (albeit somewhat profanely) persuaded, that I fear I have caused some additionally deep and grave emotional damage to your already schizoid personality. Perhaps this series was a cherished escape from a troubled and isolated childhood, spent primarily huddled under bedcovers whilst Mum and Dad argued over the last remaining drops of Chivas in the kitchen?
But I digress...

Quote:
Have you even read these, shitforbrains? Talking out of your ass again?
Yes, I have read this series several times, in the original order. I am now reading it in the chronological order to see if a different interpretation might be gained. Perhaps you and I can meet here once more on the hallowed battlefields of intellect once I've read it in this order? If my (as you so poetically put it) "shitforbrains" are up to the Herculean task, I might even endeavor to attempt something so audacious, so ill advised (in light of your obviously superior grasp of language, writing, literature and simple research) as to discuss this work in depth. Would you, could you, please favor me with perhaps your Marxist criticism of this work? Or could you grace me with your Feminist critique? Is the White Witch representative of Lewis' male Christian patriarchal attitude toward woman in general? Maybe I'm off the mark--your laserlike insights and contributions to other discussions on this forum might lend themselves more to a Deconstructionalist approach?

In any case, I eagerly await the opportunity to sit at the knee of the master, gathering equally to my heaving breast your gems of wisdom, complicated gibes and thought provoking challenges!

Asshole.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 09:57:16   #103
Vincent
Unchained
 
Vincent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Ah, fuck, I mean: It's just a book, yer know!
Vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 10:48:03   #104
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Yeah...well...he was irritating and I was bored.
__________________
BOOM!

Last edited by BigGameHunter; 24-07-2004 at 11:05:46.
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 12:36:46   #105
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Damnit. Wasn't expecting that response. I thought you were going to give me a beatdown. I'm in Richmond now, not Atlanta. Guess you came over and I wasn't there. Sorry about that, slugger.

Still, what do you think of the point that the "normal order" is the order in which the protagonists age? The order in which different children are brought into the series (with overlap)?

And if you're so smart, why haven't you read Harry pothead? You can get them at the 'brary.
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 12:37:08   #106
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
And how can you tell when I'm drinking?
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 14:07:40   #107
The Mad Monk
The REAL Nick Fury!
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier
You tend to be a trollish drunk?
__________________
At least he died doing what he loved. Insulting someone else's mother.

I will crush you. With happy little apples.

I am a happy little sig. virus. Please put me in your happy little sig. so I can continue to happily replicate. A little.

The Mad Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 14:53:39   #108
Vincent
Unchained
 
Vincent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
And even more stupid. Unbelievable, but that's the way it is
Vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 15:15:28   #109
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
I never thought much of you either, the only thing you seem to have going is this kinship with people who started the site. But you never say anything that catches my fancy. At least you're not doing Olliie poly so I can have you off ignore.
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 16:02:26   #110
Vincent
Unchained
 
Vincent's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
That's hard. Stop whining, polyboy.

Last edited by Vincent; 24-07-2004 at 16:04:28.
Vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 16:50:56   #111
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Just a statement, big guy.
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 20:11:42   #112
Angelhorns
Flying Nazi Hamster
 
Angelhorns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: hovering just behind you
Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Well it's a kids book so the style is totally appropriate.
I mean the writing style- I know its a kids book, but her style is still somewhat lacking- she repeats herself a lot, her characters have little depth- the stories are plot driven which is why they are such a compelling read. Just because its a kids book doesnt mean those things should be lacking necessarily. I think they're great books, but its her created world, the details, and the unfolding of the plot Agatha Christie style that are the hooks. I think the weaknesses in her writing are particularly exposed in Book 5 where even the plot was saggy and over complex in parts. She really needed her editor to intervene more in that one.

Still, I think she's brought magic back to books and reading for kids and adults alike, so long may she reign. Frank Sinatra wasn't a technically great singer, but he was a great singer
__________________
If Bush drank strychnine and danced with venemous snakes you would be worried wouldn't you? I really, really hope you would. - Protein considers voodoo economics

Last edited by Angelhorns; 24-07-2004 at 20:14:08.
Angelhorns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2004, 22:09:29   #113
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Quote:
Originally posted by Help TCO
Damnit. Wasn't expecting that response. I thought you were going to give me a beatdown. I'm in Richmond now, not Atlanta. Guess you came over and I wasn't there. Sorry about that, slugger.

Still, what do you think of the point that the "normal order" is the order in which the protagonists age? The order in which different children are brought into the series (with overlap)?

And if you're so smart, why haven't you read Harry pothead? You can get them at the 'brary.
Point 1: I highly doubt our physical interaction would be any more of a success for you than our written one has been.


Point 2: By "normal" do you mean the originally released order or the newly favored chronological printing?
In either case, most discussion around this admittedly trite but oddly compelling debate leans toward the benefits of reading them both ways. I'm glad I read them in the original order first, because there is the added joy of getting new and revelatory books later in the series. It's always fun when new material is added to a body of work that one enjoys. Case in point for myself has been the Riverworld series by Philip Jose Farmer, where other authors have riffed on his world. Great short stories and further adventures that cover historical figures that he did not.
I don't think a federal case needs to be made out of it--has the same effect on me that homosexuality does--I'm not personally threatened by either approach and if people can find happiness through "different ways of loving" then more power to them.

Point 3: So far, Potter has failed to grab me, which is the type of reader I am, plain and simple. Either is works or it doesn't. I'll put down a book by a favority author if it doesn't resonate with me. Though I will try again with Potter, because I think the timing has just been wrong so far. I still don't think it will make my top 10 list.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2004, 04:15:39   #114
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
Quote:
Originally posted by BigGameHunter
My dear sir, if I am ...



: Golf clap :
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2004, 17:31:53   #115
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Yeah, it's not that big a deal what order you read them. I read them in a random order and still liked them. Not that it's important, but I still don't think you get my point about the order. I'm not talking about the chronology of when Lewis wrote them, but about the time path of the children who are the protagonists.
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-07-2004, 22:51:01   #116
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Well, seeing as how I'm just starting over, my recollection of all the characters and their ages, etc. is a little foggy.
It would make sense to do that, sure...but with Magician's Nephew, it's different characters altogether and I believe (perhaps wrongly) that the wardrobe kids will age properly after that...
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-07-2004, 02:16:24   #117
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
No, dude. Well I don't really recall the kids there. But what I do recall is that the chronology of the kids fits with Magician's Nephews. It's that Aslan sends them back in time.
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-07-2004, 09:29:09   #118
Funkodrom
Die Müfzwerge
 
Funkodrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Drowning in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry
Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
I mean the writing style- I know its a kids book, but her style is still somewhat lacking- she repeats herself a lot, her characters have little depth- the stories are plot driven which is why they are such a compelling read. Just because its a kids book doesnt mean those things should be lacking necessarily. I think they're great books, but its her created world, the details, and the unfolding of the plot Agatha Christie style that are the hooks. I think the weaknesses in her writing are particularly exposed in Book 5 where even the plot was saggy and over complex in parts. She really needed her editor to intervene more in that one.

Still, I think she's brought magic back to books and reading for kids and adults alike, so long may she reign. Frank Sinatra wasn't a technically great singer, but he was a great singer
Yeah, but book 5 was my favourite so far. You suck.
__________________
protein: Bryan Adams rocks
Blog - Band Müf Gigs 5th March BerkshireLive Aid
Funkodrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-07-2004, 06:06:50   #119
The Mad Monk
The REAL Nick Fury!
 
The Mad Monk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier
Group hug!
__________________
At least he died doing what he loved. Insulting someone else's mother.

I will crush you. With happy little apples.

I am a happy little sig. virus. Please put me in your happy little sig. so I can continue to happily replicate. A little.

The Mad Monk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-07-2004, 11:43:48   #120
zmama
Counterglow CEO
 
zmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South of Laboratory
Only if you all shower first...and Lurker needs a flea dip too
__________________


The cats nestle close to their kittens now.
The lambs have laid down with the sheep.
You're cozy and warm in your bed, my dear
Please go the fuck to sleep.
zmama is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27-07-2004, 23:00:26   #121
Help TCO
member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Could I do you from behind while the water drips down on us?
Help TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 09:12:54   #122
Funkodrom
Die Müfzwerge
 
Funkodrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Drowning in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry
I'll put £1000 on "No."
__________________
protein: Bryan Adams rocks
Blog - Band Müf Gigs 5th March BerkshireLive Aid
Funkodrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 11:34:57   #123
zmama
Counterglow CEO
 
zmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South of Laboratory
Ah , not very good with the ladies, I see. Funko is correct, he wins the £1000.

Perhaps my best friend will make a good substitute for your shower scene, TCO.
__________________


The cats nestle close to their kittens now.
The lambs have laid down with the sheep.
You're cozy and warm in your bed, my dear
Please go the fuck to sleep.
zmama is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 12:53:00   #124
Venom
Look out behind you!
 
Venom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rudolph's stable
He was in the Navy. He's only good with men.
__________________
TO MY BALLS!!!!!
or
TO LazyView!!!!

Venom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 12:57:04   #125
Funkodrom
Die Müfzwerge
 
Funkodrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Drowning in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry
Ah, yes, hence his suggestion. Makes more sense if it's him and some petty officer in the shower.
__________________
protein: Bryan Adams rocks
Blog - Band Müf Gigs 5th March BerkshireLive Aid
Funkodrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 13:40:31   #126
zmama
Counterglow CEO
 
zmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South of Laboratory
My best friend is a man
__________________


The cats nestle close to their kittens now.
The lambs have laid down with the sheep.
You're cozy and warm in your bed, my dear
Please go the fuck to sleep.
zmama is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 13:47:07   #127
Funkodrom
Die Müfzwerge
 
Funkodrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Drowning in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry
And that's relevant because?
__________________
protein: Bryan Adams rocks
Blog - Band Müf Gigs 5th March BerkshireLive Aid
Funkodrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 14:00:44   #128
zmama
Counterglow CEO
 
zmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: South of Laboratory
Just so Navy will be more comfortable
__________________


The cats nestle close to their kittens now.
The lambs have laid down with the sheep.
You're cozy and warm in your bed, my dear
Please go the fuck to sleep.
zmama is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 14:22:07   #129
Funkodrom
Die Müfzwerge
 
Funkodrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Drowning in a sea of retarded sexuality and bad poetry
Ah, you should have told him you slept with men but told people you weren't gay.
__________________
protein: Bryan Adams rocks
Blog - Band Müf Gigs 5th March BerkshireLive Aid
Funkodrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 16:43:14   #130
Venom
Look out behind you!
 
Venom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rudolph's stable
Dare I get back on topic?

Yes. I dare.

I just finished Potter 5 and I have to say that it was my favorite also. The battle at the end would make for great film.
__________________
TO MY BALLS!!!!!
or
TO LazyView!!!!

Venom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-07-2004, 17:31:22   #131
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Nerds vs. Wankers cage match?
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2004, 18:51:17   #132
DevilsH@lo
Gone and Long forgotten.
 
DevilsH@lo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Abu Dhabi. UAE
Quote:
Originally posted by Venom
Dare I get back on topic?

Yes. I dare.

I just finished Potter 5 and I have to say that it was my favorite also. The battle at the end would make for great film.
you and funko both suck monkeynuts. 4 was the best- the ending was terrifying! I did like 5 though although i didnt connect with sirius at all. Maybe I need a re read, I read all 5 in quick succession so maybe I was pottered out.

-AH
DevilsH@lo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2004, 19:27:01   #133
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Why can't you just log in as yourself?
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-07-2004, 19:51:18   #134
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
Well, I didn't connect much with Sirius either. And the reason is simply... he is just a background NPC. In #3, he's the villian. In #4, he's a concerned pen-pal that only appears in a handful of scenes. In #5, he's finally around for a bit to get some real character development/screen time... but then, well, you know what happens.

Honestly, it wasn't like with Neville, who has been a developing (mostly comedy relief to sometime side-kick).

#5 has a lot of charcter and plot development in it... but I think it needed a bit of fat trimming to make it the "Best So Far" of the series.
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 02:27:21   #135
TCO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
I didn't get that much from Sirius either.
TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 02:27:57   #136
TCO
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
HP needs to lay the smack down. You know who is killing a character a book now. Can't be takign that.
TCO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 07:45:30   #137
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
It's just training for the readers so they won't die of shock when Harry and 'Darth Vader is my hero!' kill each other in #7.
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 12:49:47   #138
Venom
Look out behind you!
 
Venom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rudolph's stable
Quote:
Originally posted by DevilsH@lo
you and funko both suck monkeynuts. 4 was the best- the ending was terrifying! I did like 5 though although i didnt connect with sirius at all. Maybe I need a re read, I read all 5 in quick succession so maybe I was pottered out.

-AH
I will agree with the boobtacular one in disguise. I really liked the end of 4, but the information in 5 was outstanding. And I think the end of 5 was just as good as 4.
__________________
TO MY BALLS!!!!!
or
TO LazyView!!!!

Venom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 15:51:55   #139
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
Personally, I thought #4's ending was a bit forced. There were some serious problems with it (if the whole school is watching, how did Dumbledore miss the twist villian casting mind control magics? How did Minerva, Snape, and the others experienced at spotting it and fighting it miss it? They were *all* too busy watching the prettiest witch wiggle and jiggle?). It does have that typical "Harry survives by an ocean of luck and an eye lash" ending...

It does well as the series major turning point in the Harry versus Big Bad Guy, but it just has the feel that it was more beaten into its particular path then what flow the story wants to take naturally. Most of those points prior to that in the series aren't quite so er... titantic.

But, since its light reading and not a real mystery...
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403

Last edited by Darkstar; 30-07-2004 at 20:03:38.
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 19:53:37   #140
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
If anyone wants to talk about Narnia, let me know...I think I have to leave this thread in case I see more spoilers and ruin the experience of possibley reading this load of crap.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 20:02:56   #141
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
You've seen the movies though, haven't you BGH? So you know the main plot points for 1 - 3.
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 20:23:02   #142
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Err..I've seen the first with one eye...I know the kid was orphaned, he's a stranger in a strange land with great untapped powers and destined for greatness, as well as having evil schemers plotting his downfall...gosh, what an original storyline!
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 20:26:43   #143
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
Ah. Well, then, what are you doing in a thread about Harry #3 movie? Obviously, this is going to have spoilers in it! Well, to *you*.
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 20:31:19   #144
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
I know...I'm such a culture rebel.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 20:35:06   #145
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
You mean, you just wanted to be part of the crowd!
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 20:43:23   #146
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Part of the crowd that ignored HP??? Where does that crowd meet, on the head of a pin?
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 20:44:26   #147
Darkstar
will bitch for beer
 
Darkstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Rocket City
No... I meant, part of the crowd talking about HP here!

If you want to be part of the anti-HP crowd, you shouldn't be posting in this thread, should you?
__________________
> clue++;
> display clue;
-878923403
Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 21:45:12   #148
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
You've seen right through my aching loneliness...is it that obvious?
I half thought of pretending I'd read them, but alas, I feared I'd be made out a fake and further ostracized from the few people here who tolerated my presence.

I'll go now...to read about Narnia...alone...sniff.
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-07-2004, 23:42:42   #149
fp
hypnotoad
 
fp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Everybody Loves Hypnotoad
Quote:
Originally posted by BigGameHunter
Part of the crowd that ignored HP??? Where does that crowd meet, on the head of a pin?
Being anti-conformist is one of the most conformist things you can do. Or something like that.
fp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-07-2004, 00:03:55   #150
BigGameHunter
Hunter of Game
 
BigGameHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Lost in the jungle
Well, I think C.S. Lewis is just a far superior writer and the whole thing is a bit too similar for me to give it the time and proper effort now.
It's like how I couldn't read Asimov after Bradbury...I knew what I liked and the other was a pale comparison.
But I'm not saying people are sheep or stupid or can't think for themselves or have bought into a massive marketing ploy.
Enjoy!
__________________
BOOM!
BigGameHunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT. The time now is 21:25:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Counterglow 2001-2012. All rights reserved.