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Old 13-09-2002, 09:09:46   #301
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Ah.... thanks for the clarifications.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:13:16   #302
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"I have said elsewere the real reason Europe hates Bush is that little 'r' after his name, not what he does."

R or D is irrelevant - from our perspective they're pretty much the same.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:15:35   #303
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I agree with that.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:18:51   #304
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
The object is to make the world a better and safer place for everyone.
You bet. But, Brits and others do not make up the bulk of the forces that have fought many wars in the last 60 years for all of our interests.

Yanks do. I cannot fault them for one of their leaders opposing land mine treaties and international courts that seek to gain jurisdiction over their soldiers.

Kyoto is a flawed document on it's face and is controversial in places other than the US.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:20:55   #305
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
And it was the way he did it which pissed people off as well. Not in a nice friendly chummy way like Clinton did but an aggressive, I have no interest in the rest of the world type way. At least Clinton pretended to care.
Well that's more for the touchy diplo types to care about. The key issue is that Europe, including the UK, and the US are drifting far apart on virtually all political issues - no matter of style can paint over those cracks.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:23:04   #306
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"But, Brits and others do not make up the bulk of the forces that have fought many wars in the last 60 years for all of our interests."

Which war has the US fought in my interest after 1945 ?

"international courts that seek to gain jurisdiction over their soldiers."

The Rome Statute does NOT expand the existing jurisdiction of its signatories.

"Kyoto is a flawed document on it's face"

It's a compromise and a first step. Few things start out flawless.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:25:39   #307
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It seems that may be the case, and that is sad. We have far more in common than not.

A better approach would be one of cooperation. The Euro approach of dialogue and convincing would work better in most cases. However, there are some 'hard cases'. The Yanks seem good at handeling them.

What's the problem? Unless you feel that there is no case so hard that force is necessary. To that I'd say that day has not yet come.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:26:51   #308
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"many wars in the last 60 years for all of our interests"

Very debatable. For the US's interests. Yes, for the rest of us? Much less so.

Did anyone in the US actually read what the International Court's powers actually were? People seemed to be saying that any little 3rd world country with a grudge could get US troops tried for war crimes which is way over the top and doesn't look at any of the good things it would do.

Kyoto isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction. It's contraversial because it'll up costs for industries. Sometimes you have to do something tough for the benefit of other people.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:27:53   #309
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"We have far more in common than not."

Depends on what you look at. As far as the political system is concerned, very little.

"A better approach would be one of cooperation."

Well the US has the my way or the highway attitude. It is futile. Time to cut the ties.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:32:35   #310
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"But, Brits and others do not make up the bulk of the forces that have fought many wars in the last 60 years for all of our interests."

Which war has the US fought in my interest after 1945 ?

"international courts that seek to gain jurisdiction over their soldiers."

The Rome Statute does NOT expand the existing jurisdiction of its signatories.

"Kyoto is a flawed document on it's face"

It's a compromise and a first step. Few things start out flawless.
Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf, etc. The Cold War? Come on Roland. Until 1989 you lived on the brink of the gulag. Actually, you would most likely have been shot. Would you have preferred the Yanks retreated into isolationism in 1945?

As for their soldiers goes, that's what the Yanks are on about. I could use some education on that, but I doubt they are standing on nothing.

Yeah about Kyoto, the government of Canada can attest to how easy it is to get things changed after the rest of the world thinks they have the thing engraved in granite. What is wrong with the Americans saying they will try to acheive similar goals by their own means?
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:36:01   #311
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Originally posted by Funkodrom
"many wars in the last 60 years for all of our interests"

Very debatable. For the US's interests. Yes, for the rest of us? Much less so.
This is getting much better. Yes.

Who is more dependant on Middle Eastern oil? How well do you think European economies would do if cut off from major parts of it and the Far East was cut off from their entire supply? I think you;d be unempolyed pretty quick.

None of us are really living on an island any more. We all need each other. Some more than most.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:36:11   #312
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We were in Korea and the gulf. Vietnam didn't help anyone.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:37:03   #313
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"Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf, etc."

Korea - how so ?
Vietnam - how so ?
Gulf - indirectly yes.

"The Cold War?"

I don't count that as a war.

"As for their soldiers goes, that's what the Yanks are on about. I could use some education on that, but I doubt they are standing on nothing."

They are standing on exactly nothing. For the crimes in the statute every state has jurisdiction on the persons in its territory. On the jurisdiction based on the location where the crime was committed, the ICC statute does not even cover the full scope of state jurisdiction. If it were otherwise it would be a treaty seeking to oblige a thrid party which is illegal under international law.

"What is wrong with the Americans saying they will try to acheive similar goals by their own means?"

That was the initial Clinton policy and the Senate resolution. The Bush admin did not even try to negotiate it.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:38:41   #314
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"Who is more dependant on Middle Eastern oil?"

That's another one of those propaganda storied. The US and the EU import roughly the same amount of oil from the ME. The really dependent one is Japan.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:51:16   #315
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Originally posted by Roland
"Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf, etc."

Korea - how so ?
Vietnam - how so ?
Gulf - indirectly yes.

"The Cold War?"

I don't count that as a war.
It's good the Americans spent so much on the Cold... what, Spat? Call it whatever you want. A lot of Americans died on the fields of Korea and Vietnam as part of that... Spat. And a lot of Euros stayed tucked in bed, nice and warm at night.
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Old 13-09-2002, 09:52:46   #316
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"Who is more dependant on Middle Eastern oil?"

That's another one of those propaganda storied. The US and the EU import roughly the same amount of oil from the ME. The really dependent one is Japan.
And what are the relevant percentages Roland?

And what would we all do if the economies of Japan, Korea, Thailand and maybe China cratered?
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Old 13-09-2002, 10:02:18   #317
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"A lot of Americans died on the fields of Korea and Vietnam as part of that... Spat. And a lot of Euros stayed tucked in bed, nice and warm at night."

In Vietnam they died for no reason. As far as warm beds go, if the cold war had turned hot, we'd have been the battlefield and our soldiers would have died in droves.

"And what are the relevant percentages Roland?"

It's getting boring to link that all over again.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm

http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/P...AP-EN&type=pdf

About 25-30 % of EU oil imports are from the region. Imports are about 70 % of demand, so ~ 18-21 %.

About 30 % of US oil imports are from the region. Imports are about 60 % of demand, so ~ 18 %.
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Old 13-09-2002, 10:04:34   #318
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"And what would we all do if the economies of Japan, Korea, Thailand and maybe China cratered?"

Not much. And China is about self sufficient on oil.
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Old 13-09-2002, 12:35:13   #319
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that is an amazing statement

amazingly ignorant

there's nothing wrong with islam, just the way it has been warped to suit bad people's goals
You're entitled to feel that way, but don't expect me to join in with the PC sob sistah choir. As far as I'm concerned, any religion is an outward sign of insanity, but I'm not moved to complain as long as they have the decency to practice it privately.

Islam, however, isn't about all that. It's roughly comparable to what X-ianity was during the times of Torquemada, and need a gentle - or not so gentle - push in the right direction if it wants to play with the other children. That Sharia as secular law has to go. So does the martyr crap and the norrowminded muslim tribalism. These are all features that makes any Islam as practiced anywhere today unacceptable to any modern human being.

But we pulled X-ianity's teeth, and I have no doubt we'll pull Islam's as well. If they don't let go, we'll have to crush them.
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Old 13-09-2002, 12:38:31   #320
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"These are all features that makes any Islam as practiced anywhere today unacceptable..."

There are secular muslims, and there are many different groups in Islam. If you are trying to say that Islam equates nutty fundamentalism than the statement is indeed ignorant. I fail to see the dangers from Sufism or the Alawis in Anatolia....
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Old 13-09-2002, 12:41:11   #321
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As far as I'm concerned, any religion is an outward sign of insanity,
i'm in total agreement with that - but then you go and write somethig stupid like this

Quote:
Originally posted by moomin

But we pulled X-ianity's teeth, and I have no doubt we'll pull Islam's as well. If they don't let go, we'll have to crush them.
not sure who 'we' is in this context, but it might as well be the international association of fuckin idiots
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Old 13-09-2002, 12:44:43   #322
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You'd know best, KG.
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Old 13-09-2002, 12:47:58   #323
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ack! i'm slain! an 'i know you are' retort! holy shit! who wants to swap baseball cards, i must have fallen through a fucking timewarp and landed back in school!
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Old 13-09-2002, 12:50:31   #324
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:15:50   #325
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Roland, I know it's the senate, sometimes the ol brain is slow in the middle of the night, but at any rate it's irrelevent.

Saying the cold war wasn't a war is beneath you.

As for Vietnam, that was a Euro problem dumped on the US when the French couldn't handle it (big surprise).

As for how Korea and Nam helped, it showed the Russians the US would fight, so they never finished you bums off, and Austria didn't have much of an army in the cold war anyway.

The US learned a lot from Nam, the #1 lesson was to fight wars all out, to forget gentle nonsense when the other side isn't complying, this philosophy was shown in the gulf war, Iraq had the world's forth largest army at the time, yet withen 100 hours that the ground war started it was done.

You guys also showed just what I said, no reason to hate Bush, you just do, damn silly.

We would be happy not to bother with any of you if you would take care of terrorism, but all you guys know how to do is wring your hands and say "It can't be stopped, do nothing".

Not an acceptable option.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:18:06   #326
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The US wanted a foothold in East Asia to stop the spread of communism or some other gay excuse.

Quote:
We would be happy not to bother with any of you if you would take care of terrorism, but all you guys know how to do is wring your hands and say "It can't be stopped, do nothing".
Fuck off.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:20:39   #327
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We already had the hold, it's called "Japan".

That's your normal responce, which is why we now ignore you fuckers and handle it ourselves.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:21:40   #328
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We've been dealing with terrorists almost as long as you've been training them.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:23:42   #329
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:26:32   #330
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The ones you train like Osama you mean?
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:27:35   #331
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Never trained him old boy, I was thinking of our Irish lackeys.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:28:49   #332
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Just funded him in Afghanistan.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:30:18   #333
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Sure, he served our purpose.

And now we'll kill him, it's the American way.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:31:37   #334
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This whole terrorist thing is Englands fault anyway.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:32:31   #335
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Just funded him in Afghanistan.
Yeah, and he turned on us. Despite the fact we tried to help him against the communists. I suppose it's our fault he's a backstabbing piece of shit.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:33:13   #336
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Not just them, all the Euro-weenies are to blame.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:33:55   #337
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You should kick our arses.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:34:53   #338
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We did that years ago and you didn't straigthen out, you guys are beyound hope.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:35:57   #339
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So is your spelling.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:38:32   #340
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Your just figuring that out?
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:39:29   #341
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You're
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:40:09   #342
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We'll save you guys to take bullets for us in any upcoming battles.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:40:24   #343
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:44:09   #344
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We'll save you guys to take bullets for us in any upcoming battles.
Save the Iraqis the effort and shoot us yourselves like you did last time.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:45:27   #345
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:46:20   #346
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Mike, do yourself a favour and just don't answer any more.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:47:06   #347
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:47:44   #348
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Save the Iraqis the effort and shoot us yourselves like you did last time.
Good one there buddy. No one ever has any friendly fire accidents in war except Americans.
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:48:31   #349
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That's my standard poly troll #3
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Old 13-09-2002, 13:48:33   #350
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Go back to picking on spelling and grammar. It's the only part of your posts that are correct.
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