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Old 04-02-2004, 08:41:21   #251
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:44:53   #252
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Old 04-02-2004, 08:50:22   #253
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Old 04-02-2004, 10:14:46   #254
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angelhorns
SCIENTISTS DID A TEST WHERE THEY CREATED A GENERIC PERSONALITY DESCRIPTION AND GAVE IT TO A BUCH OF PEOPLE WHO ALL SAID 'THAT IS TRUE! I DO LIKE EATING FOOD!', HENCE TONS OF PEOPLE LAUGH AT ASTROLOGY. BUT ASK YOURSELF IF THAT TEST WAS NOT UNFAIRLY BIASED: IF YOU DELIBERATELY CREATE A GENERIC DESCRIPTION, OF COURS LOADS OF PEOPLE WILL SAY ITS THEM TO A TEE. ASTROLOGY DOESNT PRODUCE GENERIC REPORTS IF DONE PROPERLY SO ITS HARD TO SEE ANY FAIR COMPARISON, AND HAD YOU GIVEN THESE PEOPLE A REPORT SAYING 'YOU LIVE ON CRAB MEAT AND YOUR MOTHER IS A BOTANIST' MOST PEOPLE WOULD HAVE SAID NO. ALL THAT TEST PROVES IS THE FLAWED LOGIC OF THE PEOPLE WHO DEVISED IT
You show a fundamental lack of understanding of science and logic. Not to mention that your predjudice against science clouds your judgement. Those are not the kind of tests that are carried out. If the test was based on flawed logic it would be torn apart by other scientists.

One of the experiments was to give 17 of the top astrologers birth dates/times and places for people (1800 people) the astrologers worked up real charts for those people. Then they asked the astrologers to meet the people they had made the charts for and to decide whether that was their real birth date or a fake.

The 17 top astrologers were only correct 50% of the time.

A person working through total guesswork should be correct 50% of the time.

What is flawed about this experiment?

for more information there is a quite detailed critique of the criticism of the research into Astrology here:

http://www.astrology-and-science.com/abstr-c1.htm

I'm sure you won't read it because you have already decided that all scientists are biased and therefore any science criticising Astrology is wrong. At least I've looked at the evidence.

Oh and the gravity thing was only based on what Darkstar said, you still haven't given any basics about why the positions of the planets are supposed to influence people. A major missing part if we are supposed to take Astrology as a scientific theory.

Scientific Method has the following 4 steps:

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.


We have #1 It appears that astrology can describe peoples personalities.

We don't have any hypothesis as to why this might be, and therefore we haven't got the following two steps. This is why, as scientists, we are really struggling to take it seriously. There is no scientific basis for us to be able to test the theory.

So, all we can do is verify whether the claims made in #1 (that astrology can describe peoples personalities) are actually accurate, and so far, despite well formed and sensible tests, we can't prove that.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:06:18   #255
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I haven't bothered to read the thread.

Has anyone noted yet that the positions of the sun and planets used in astrology are so far out of sync with their actual positions that correcting the discrepency would require shifting everything over more than a month for the sun alone?
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:27:16   #256
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We've debunked more than you could possibly imagine. Astrology hasn't got a leg to stand on unless you believe in souls and the position of stars having a spiritual effect.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:31:30   #257
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somebody already probably mentionned that in the 4 pages of ramblings but I can't be arsed to read

one argument for astrology I heard was that since the moon was responsible for tides (ie had a massive impact on water) and that we're made essentially of water, it makes sense planets have an influence on our moods

I thought that was nearly interesting, but ultimately bollocks


did I in any way contributed to the debate?

I didn't think so either
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:32:40   #258
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:34:36   #259
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No. Apparently gravity isn't how astrology works. Also, that would mean that gravity would be affecting your brain to change your personality and according to angelhorns you personality isn't to do with your brain, it is your soul. So unless the moon's gravity affects your spirit...
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:35:18   #260
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Anyway, I declared this discussion over. No more going around in circles.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:41:10   #261
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Originally posted by protein
unless you believe in souls
Ah! Souls!
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:42:12   #262
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I don't get it.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:42:35   #263
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
Astrology *should* be a favorite of this board. In Astrology, Uranus is the keeper and ruler of all knowledge. People that can plug into Uranus are plugged into the Great Library of All Knowledge and *know things* they have never studied. This is actually known as pulling knowledge out of Uranus (although more properly speaking, its having it served to them from Uranus).


This is the best post of this whole thread, thanks DS.

According to HARDstrology, in the sky all twats r gay.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:43:21   #264
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Shit, I wonder if all DS's posts have stuff like that in them that I miss.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:44:50   #265
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Originally posted by Aredhran
in the sky all twats r gay.
...or Guy, for rhyme sake...
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:46:21   #266
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Shit, I wonder if all DS's posts have stuff like that in them that I miss.
I'm going to guess No. And I feel very confident about that guess.
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:52:18   #267
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Did you get an astrological biochart and a tarot read to guess that ?
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Old 04-02-2004, 16:54:39   #268
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The stars alignment all said boredom, so I knew I'd be ok with that guess.
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Old 04-02-2004, 19:35:55   #269
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It's all agaimst the fucking Bible anyway.
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Old 04-02-2004, 20:27:02   #270
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Quote:
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Shit, I wonder if all DS's posts have stuff like that in them that I miss.
I'm shocked anyone ever reads all those giant posts, they just seem to blur into one long zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz to me.
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Old 04-02-2004, 20:30:01   #271
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"The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars but in ourselves."

"Shut up! This was you're was you're fucking stupid plan."
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Old 04-02-2004, 21:51:36   #272
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I'm going to guess No. And I feel very confident about that guess.
Because you've been so bored you've actually read all my posts? Man, you need to get out more!
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Old 04-02-2004, 22:47:34   #273
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Actually, it is true that at most full moon, most police departments get more calls.
You ever tried to break into someone's home in the total fucking dark? A little moonlight helps no-end. Otherwise you end up crashing around in the dark or waving a flashlight around in someone's backyard - not a good look.
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Old 04-02-2004, 22:55:50   #274
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Uh, no I haven't...and how do you know this, Shiny one?
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Old 04-02-2004, 23:02:58   #275
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Well, your brain form over a 9 month period (and continues afterward). But, since all the heavenly bodies move at a predictable rate, etc etc etc

Now, why, where, when, and how you come into the world... your first really big hit on your brain for input is going to be birth. Most of your sensory input isn't exactly roaring along, is it? You've had a nice, cosy existance until then. You can sense sound, and touch, temperature, and taste. But so far, the only thing that has changed is sound.

The whole birth experience, though, changes that. Major stimulus, major brain activity results. And it's been shown that stimulated brains develop faster...

Now, environmentally speaking, you've got half the sky blocked out by the Earth. So you may or may not be getting an extra photon in some wavelength or whatever.

Riiight.


Angelhorns:

Back to my popperian suggestion - is there a conclusive test that astrology could ever fail? As in, design an experiement for me that, if a certain result were to come up, would conclusively prove that astrology DOESN'T work.

That's the difference between science and pseudoscience. A science takes a theory and actively tries to disprove it somehow. A theory that can't even be tested in this way is virtually no use at all.

A pseudoscience takes a theory and tries to gather supporting information, and then refines it where-ever it doesn't agree with the data. Nothing is ever disproved, the theory is just constantly tweaked and extended to deal with new, inconvenient data.
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Old 04-02-2004, 23:03:47   #276
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Uh, no I haven't...and how do you know this, Shiny one?
Forgot my keys at the 1998 flat.
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Old 05-02-2004, 00:52:02   #277
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You've all agreed you're right, so just carry on slapping each others backs.
Go ask the astrological society next time you want answers and dont fucking ask me just so you can try and belittle me and misconstrue literally eveything I said, even though I already said i only have an amateur's knowledge in the field and do not speak for all astrologers.
Not one of you can be bothered to research anything about it so you can shove it up your arses
Incidentally, yes I will read that article, because I have an open mind. What I object to is supposed scientists creating supposedly logical experiments based on their flawed 'knowledge' of astrological methods/claims, not scientists. I can tell though from the introduction, that the writer had made their mind up before ever writing the article, and without seeing the original article it is pretty meaningless. A quick scan of Amazon would show you loads of books that claim to 'prove' astrology. Just because some guy says he disproves astrology and he has a white coat on, doesnt make it true. Scientists make mistakes all the time and are subject to bias just like us poor ignorant astrologers, who are obviously so much lesser beings than your great selves.
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Old 05-02-2004, 00:57:11   #278
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Old 05-02-2004, 02:17:25   #279
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Quote:
Originally posted by protein
We've debunked more than you could possibly imagine. Astrology hasn't got a leg to stand on unless you believe in souls and the position of stars having a spiritual effect.
I believe in souls.
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Old 05-02-2004, 07:20:07   #280
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Ah!
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:20:32   #281
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"Back to my popperian suggestion - is there a conclusive test that astrology could ever fail?"

Yes? No? Can this be done?

Taking the post-modernist route of arguing that everyone is flawed therefore nothing can ever be proved or disproved because scientists are just as biased and inbred as anyone else does absolutely nothing for astrology, Angelhorns.

The achievements of physics, chemistry, engineering, biology, economics, computer science, etc over the last 400 years speak for themselves. If scientists are just as dumb and biased as ordinary society, how have these achievements happened?

Science, to my knowledge, is the only branch of thinking where you CAN conclusively slam an idea, such that no-one else wastes serious time on it. It thrives because it is able to ignore wrong or dead end arguements in favour of ones that can actually do some good.

Compare the actual achievements of say chemistry to astrology over the last hundred years, and tell me that astrology is just as valid and useful. I dare you.

If anyone here is seemingly close minded in this arguement, it's only because they've had it many times before - usually with the 'oh well, believe what you want you close minded fuck' response.

Astrology doesn't work because it's never been given the chance to fail. It's a cute little romantic idea that is nice and all, but you can't do anything with it. Science, on the other hand, offers near endless possibilities.
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:25:22   #282
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Computer science doesn't slam ideas that have been disproven. Those ideas are given to undergrads to see if there's a way to make it possible.

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Old 05-02-2004, 09:28:53   #283
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Is someone picking on you SP, or are you a genius?
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:32:24   #284
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:33:01   #285
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Computer science isn't a science either.
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:34:30   #286
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The Linux/Microsoft people certainly bring a tenor of fundamentalism to it.
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:34:32   #287
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Why?
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:38:51   #288
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Quote:
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Scientists make mistakes all the time and are subject to bias just like us poor ignorant astrologers
I said that. That's why they get other scientists to tear apart their ideas and recreate their experiments.
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Old 05-02-2004, 09:39:10   #289
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It's all agaimst the fucking Bible anyway.
you see? Even the Kama Sutra's against it!
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Old 05-02-2004, 12:48:02   #290
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We should make a point out of posting this pic in every thread with long answers.

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Old 05-02-2004, 12:54:19   #291
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Old 05-02-2004, 16:58:26   #292
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DS said: This is actually known as pulling knowledge out of Uranus ...

I have been reading along and appreciating the exchanges, but this line has me laughing so hard, I'm crying.

While I can see what Darkstar was getting at, given the slant against astrology here, I don't think that line / concession (depending on your pov) bodes well in support of astrology.

I also think that some must now be convinced (whether they believe in astrology or not) that DS has a heavy influence of of this planet in his chart...as those frustrated in defending astrology may think of those against it.

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Old 05-02-2004, 23:25:59   #293
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@ Darkstar
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Old 05-02-2004, 23:32:58   #294
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Old 05-02-2004, 23:45:16   #295
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Astrology: Pulling knowledge from Uranus!
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Old 05-02-2004, 23:59:15   #296
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Hey, astrologers look at my chart and go:

"Oh great lord and prophet of all knowledge, welcome back to the realm of flesh and faulty beings."

They also tend to go...

"How are you still alive?" But I get that a lot, including from non-astrologers.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:41:19   #297
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Old 06-02-2004, 03:26:49   #298
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Hey, our resident turd-burglar is AngelHorns. She's the retired amateur astrologer.
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