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Funko 24-02-2010 09:06:24

Civ V Announced
 
The other day.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/ci...ced-for-autumn

Out in the autumn. It uses hexes instead of squares for the grid, which some nerds are creaming their pants about. And apparently it's "one unit per tile". It does look pretty nice.

http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/a...slideshow=true

Fistandantilus 24-02-2010 09:29:34

But but... there is no religion!!!one11!!11one

Funko 24-02-2010 09:36:42

They might have gone back to generic religious buildings. I don't really mind. It's just one other distraction from managing your military.

Scabrous Birdseed 24-02-2010 10:08:27

CIVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

MDA 24-02-2010 12:00:08

whoa

Greg W 24-02-2010 12:31:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funko (Post 1008370)
It uses hexes instead of squares for the grid, which some nerds are creaming their pants about.

I'm presuming you're tlaking about that incredibly nerdy civ site there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funko (Post 1008370)
And apparently it's "one unit per tile". It does look pretty nice.

I am guessing that cities are exempt from that rule (I ask here seeing as I can't see the info on the eurogamer page)?

That's going to make for some interesting tactics. If your attack minded units move to the front line to attack, they leave themselves open to counterattack as you can't stack them with defensive units any more. And with units like Chariots and horsemen you will need to balance their speed against their weak defence w/r to how quickly you advance!

It will add some strategy, but whether it will be a good thing or not I am not sure...

Cheshire Cat 24-02-2010 12:50:31

Hexes:
FreeCiv already introduced hexes as one of the available topological options, so they had to cope with it
:p

One unit per tile:
hhhmmmm... Diplomacy-style?
will this lead to several units attacking the same target at the same time from different tiles, i.e. simultaneous-turns?


________________

see also

http://www.firaxis.com/news/news_detail.php?id=761

http://www.civilization5.com/


____
edit:
and http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61185

Cheshire Cat 24-02-2010 12:54:08

Lapha Centauri?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg W (Post 1008379)
I'm presuming you're tlaking

are you still on that "paly", or is that just a honest typo???
:D

Cheshire Cat 24-02-2010 13:11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funko (Post 1008370)
It uses hexes instead of squares for the grid, which some nerds are creaming their pants about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg W (Post 1008379)
I'm presuming you're tlaking about that incredibly nerdy civ site there.

not only that

http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60150

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._3_1_duale.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._3_1_duale.gif

Funko 24-02-2010 13:33:30

I'm sure it'll still be cylindrical.

Love the messageboard heroes:

"I see no reason for a few pentagons to affect the AI."

:lol:

Fistandantilus 24-02-2010 13:39:26

Quote:

Lapha Centauri?
:lol:

Cheshire Cat 24-02-2010 13:51:50

OP pic, full size

http://www.civilization5.com/img/scr...eenshot_03.jpg

Greg W 24-02-2010 14:57:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheshire Cat (Post 1008381)
are you still on that "paly", or is that just a honest typo???
:D

Er... Honest typo. :o

Funko 26-02-2010 09:28:56


Fistandantilus 26-02-2010 09:38:32

Cool.

MDA 26-02-2010 12:23:32

The trailer reminds me of the tech quotes from Alpha Centauri

Fistandantilus 26-02-2010 13:16:09

Yeah, that's what makes it so good :D

Funko 26-02-2010 13:43:00

They are going back to something more like the AC method of civics too by the sound of it.

maroule 01-03-2010 12:35:51

yay, nice trailer
I'm one of the nerds creaming my pants, btw

Greg W 01-03-2010 12:55:23

Well, at least they're your own pants you're creaming!

MDA 01-03-2010 12:58:10

you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last tissue

Venom 01-03-2010 12:58:10

PASS!

maroule 01-03-2010 13:08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg W (Post 1008724)
Well, at least they're your own pants you're creaming!

well no, funny thing actually, we just found out the missus was pregnant

Funko 01-03-2010 13:32:15

:beer: Congratulations

MDA 01-03-2010 14:12:17

ha! :beer:

MDA 01-03-2010 14:12:47

<tadpole joke>

maroule 01-03-2010 14:49:43

hey, thanks!
number two is supposedly easier than the first one (one hopes)


coming back on civ 4, it would be nirvana if they could keep the amazing global balance in strategic terms, and yet incorporate tactical brilliance, which has always been a game changer ; in a game of civ, you just can't re-enact historical shifts like alexander, the bigger forces win, full point. It's quite mecanic, and cumulative, once you reach the tipping point (for example taking the opponent's capital), it's pretty much game over.

I'd wet my paints even more with a merge civ 4 / total war tacticalr esolution... we'll get there one day...

Greg W 01-03-2010 15:01:45

Ah, what a way for me to ferret out that piece of information! :lol:

Congrats, that's great news! :beer:

Greg W 22-03-2010 10:34:09

Was reading up on this a bit earlier on the 2k games site forum as they had a link off the front page to it. Sounds very interesting, though there are perhaps a few ideas that will need to be seen before I make my mind up if I like them or not.

City States sounds interesting. Religion I am not so sure whether losing it is a good thing or not. Barbarian Cities could be good too. No tech trading I am really not sure about, even if your allies help with tech. Different continent types sounds intriguing.

Fistandantilus 22-03-2010 12:23:08

No tech trading is really surprising, going to have a big impact in MP.

Funko 22-03-2010 12:30:03

but you can combine research with allies to research quicker. And if you later backstab them and go to war you lose your shared research. Which I quite like. It's given a simple good reason not to backstab your allies, and a way of getting research done faster.

The tech trading was so hard to teach the AI to do properly I think this is a great option.

Greg W 22-03-2010 13:31:27

Can't see why the AI found it so hard to trade techs, really, especially since you can see figures (tech costs) for them. They basically need to trade 1-1 at the least, but they should be willing to pay less for techs that aren't suited to them (ex: military techs for a peace loving civ) and more for those they love (Military techs for war mongers). Same applies to trading away techs they are suited to or not.

Funko 22-03-2010 13:38:04

'cause it is one of those things that humans find very easy to do but it's very hard to program the myriad of things we take into account when we make that decision.

Because some techs are much more important than others and the tech cost doesn't reflect their importance. Plus many massively vary in importance depending what else you've researched and what the other civ has. Quite a few have benefits if you are the first to research them but after that they are low priority... And the AI was rubbish at being able to see what techs other civs have, work out what they wanted and beeline to a tech and then sell it to everyone else who wanted it. And it depends on how militant the other tech is and how far away they are.

eg. I would often give away military techs to Monty when he was too far away to attack me because he was never good enough to survive/win on his own but he could really annoy other AIs if he had enough tech. Or I'd sell a low grade/low impact tech for cash to many people, when I needed the money.

Human ability to be creative in tech trading was a massive imbalance in CivIV. Fine in MP because everyone is on a level playing field.

Greg W 22-03-2010 14:05:27

See, I'm not sure I ever broke it down that far tbh. About the furthest I'd go is not trading techs with wonders I was currently building (until it was too late for someone else to build them) or trading super military techs.

I guess I see your point on harder difficulty levels, but then to an extent that could be applied to anything, like giving world maps away, giving open borders and so on.

Dunno, did you ever hear a developer say that, or is that just your (or other people's) guesses? AI is always hard to code, but to me tech trading is probably (I've never coded AI so I am guessing) simpler than some of the other things you need to teach the AI to do.

Funko 22-03-2010 14:12:07

On harder difficulties (Monarch and up) it's practically the only way you can stay in touch with techs at lower levels...

Quite a lot of discussion about it when people were modding the AI at Poly, yeah.

Funko 22-03-2010 14:12:53

Or the only way I can anyway, finding micromanagement way too tedious.

Greg W 22-03-2010 14:29:31

Oh well, we'll see how the new system works I guess. Is going to make alliances more important, which is never a bad thing.

Cheshire Cat 22-03-2010 16:32:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funko (Post 1010011)
but you can combine research with allies to research quicker. And if you later backstab them and go to war you lose your shared research. Which I quite like. It's given a simple good reason not to backstab your allies, and a way of getting research done faster.

The tech trading was so hard to teach the AI to do properly I think this is a great option.

disclaimer:
didn't delve in all the recent news
didn' play Civ III and IV

Consideration:
I find it hard to get excited about "Civ novelties" which are actually old concepts seen and exploited in depth in other games

questions:

no tech trading
so you now can be allied for life to a Civ who knows a key advanced tech, and they "can't" give it to you?
sounds like the Vulcans in ST: Enterprise :)
- can you still steal tech?
- can you still conquer tech? (spoils)
- can you still learn it thru Great Library?
- allies contribute to your research: I figure that's easily implemented via extra bulbs coming from the Pact (seen in for instance in Space Empires). I find it hard to imagine how you can lose them when you break a Pact once you accumlated them, and especially if you already earned a tech advance

one unit per hex
- can you "cross" a tile occupied by one of your units, if there's a free hex in range behind it?
- would that be allowed at least for jets? can't they fly over an eney land units frontline too?



:confused:

Funko 22-03-2010 17:08:06

We know that you will be able to stack an air unit, land military unit and civilian unit on one tile. (also all boats can hold land units).

I think that you can't cross an occupied hex, but don't have a definitive answer.

You couldn't conquer techs in CivIV, dunno whether that's back. The Oracle provided a free tech, and I think something else did. Democracy maybe? The Great Library gave you a big research bonus and access to great scientist points... I think the wonders are supposed to be mostly comparable to CivIV.

CivIV really was good.

And yes, there's nothing here that isn't already found in other games, and the designers have been quite open that the combat is based on Panzer General.

And they also seem to be going back to social policies a la Alpha Centauri rather than civics.

Fistandantilus 22-03-2010 17:26:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funko (Post 1010031)
... Democracy maybe?

I think it was first to discover Liberalism, possibly others as well can't remember.

Anyway Civ4 was a huge improvement over Civ3 and a big step in the right direction imho. I don't mind if they borrow ideas from other games as long as they are good ones :D

Funko 22-03-2010 17:27:03

Liberalism, that's it. I think Democracy was next on the chain...

King_Ghidra 22-03-2010 17:51:32

I had some big sessions on civ iv not long ago. Bought it off Steam with all the add-ons. Lots of fun.

I think my fave development over the series was the power of culture to expand borders and turn cities. Liked that idea a lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fistandantilus (Post 1008371)
But but... there is no religion!!!one11!!11one

Is that true? I liked the implementation of religion in civ iv, even if it was a bit complicated and messy - lifelike you might say. I had a fun game creating a christian fundamentalist empire.

Greg W 23-03-2010 01:08:17

Yeah, it's mentioned in the link I posted.

I bought all the Civ IV games ages ago, but I've also played a few games recently and Civ IV is indeed great fun.

- Culture = great.

- Religion = good, but with some drawbacks, such as making it very hard to stay peaceful for long with people of other religions. In some cases, that's a good thing, but it's not as if Christians/Muslims/Taoists/etc have bad relations with every other religion. Also only downloaded the most recent patch the other week so it was good to see a religious mission to discover my Holy Mountain. Did add a certain flavour to the game trying to convert AI cities to your religion though.

- Diplomatic history = great. It may have been used before but it was good to see all the modifiers.

- AI cheating = bad. Still caught the AI out exploring over ocean squares with galleys! That really makes rushing to Compass and... er, the other tech that gives you the first ocean going vessels... useless. :bash:

One thing I find interesting is that they say that combined arms armies will be much more important. How they're going to implement this with one unit per hex I am not sure. If your warrior unit has an archer unit standing behind it, does said archer unit provide defensive fire if your warrior unit is attacked? What about if they're on a flank rather than behind? I am intrigued to see how that all works.

Funko 23-03-2010 08:47:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by King_Ghidra (Post 1010036)
Is that true? I liked the implementation of religion in civ iv, even if it was a bit complicated and messy - lifelike you might say. I had a fun game creating a christian fundamentalist empire.

Yeah.

Although when they introduced the apostolic palace in Beyond the Sword it became too important in the game... I liked the initial implementation.

Tau Ceti 23-03-2010 12:44:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg W (Post 1010042)
- AI cheating = bad. Still caught the AI out exploring over ocean squares with galleys! That really makes rushing to Compass and... er, the other tech that gives you the first ocean going vessels... useless. :bash:

I think you must be mistaken here, Greg. I must have several hundred games under my belt, and can quite confidently say that this has never happened. I have also never read anything about it anywhere. As a direct violation of the game's written rules, it would have got attention, and people would have demanded a fix.

Galleys are allowed to cross ocean squares as long as they are within your cultural borders, so they can cross some straits. They do not cross open sea, though. If you play on an Archipelago map, you can see this after Astronomy when lots of galleons are sent in all directions as the AI tries to settle the last remaining free pieces of land.

I am skeptical of Civ V. One thing is that I think it would be very difficult to improve on Civ IV in any meaningful way, but another is that the new ideas just do not look particularly good to me. They appear to be trying to turn Civ into a sort of tactical wargame, which I do not think it is particularly suited for. It has always been about both building and warfare, but not about fancy maneuvers on the battlefield. Also, games with one unit per hex have tended to have movement rates of at least 3-4 for the slowest units, and usually maps that are understood to be much more local than the whole world. It would be strange to see Civ go in that direction, but I think it will be hard to make it work if they don't.

Who knows, maybe they can succeed. But nearly all the changes they have listed so far sound like they will make me less likely to enjoy it.

Greg W 23-03-2010 13:40:45

Ah, I didn't know the cultural borders thing. I thought it was just that Ocean squares were out full stop. It may very well have crossed ocean squares within it's borders. Think that's a little odd though, as is cultural borders spreading over unused ocean squares.

Tau Ceti 23-03-2010 17:50:15

I suppose it represents smaller excursions from familiar waters. It is also a way of simulating, for instance, the Vikings going from Scandinavia to Iceland, then to Greenland, and then to North America. A daunting voyage if done in one step, but made possible by the presence of settlements along the way.

Cultural borders never extend more than one ocean square away from the coast, so the effect is limited as well.

Greg W 24-03-2010 02:18:08

Ok, well that's not so bad then.

MDA 27-03-2010 23:29:42

Ook, Civ4 hates my Vista install. Even tried using a guide from that nerdy Civ site

Greg W 28-03-2010 03:01:32

Weird. I installed it on my new windows 7 laptop and it works fine. Would have thought W7 would have been more touchy than Vista.


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