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View Full Version : Don't s'pose any of you are programmers?


BoltyBoy
17-12-2002, 14:22:49
I'm looking for a programmer who might like to have a crack at working on a fairly straight forward computer game. I had this idea and have been working on graphics for it but lack the programming ability to turn it in to a playable game.

So if anyone knows anyone or has suggestions where I could find a programmer that may be interested then I would appreciate mucho mucho.

And of course all the highly opionated Counterglow bods can be play testers.

MDA
17-12-2002, 14:29:06
wishy-washy Counterglow bods with fanboy tendencies need not apply.

Beta1
17-12-2002, 16:08:56
Do it yourself - its far more fun that way.

Look at www.darkbasic.com for a easy to learn language - if you have ever done any basic programming you will pick DB up in no time. Am seriously thinking about getting DBpro myself.

Anyway what sort of game is it? If you dont give us more info we cant help. At least genre and 2d/3d would help

BoltyBoy
17-12-2002, 17:23:59
That certainly looks like a handy package. I had a crack at C++ and Direct X but that just melted my brain.

The game could be 3D or in 2D using fixed angle orthographic projection.

The game is basically a kind of real-time Sim City/Civilization/WWII combat except not really comparable to any of these if that makes sense.

What the game really covers that I have not seen any other game do to any major degree is having the player not only organising front line combat but at the same time having to organise the supply lines as well as work at disrupting the enemy's supplies. This may sound like it would be a case of tedious micro-management but lets just say I would find that kind of game boring so I'd certainly not design a game like that!

There would be a lot of 3D visual activity going on in the game world but at the same time a player only needs to concentrate on certain aspects at any one time. In the same way Sim City is nice to look at but you don't need to take everything in in order to be able to play the game.

As for DarkBasic, the examples on the website show that it could easily handle what I have in mind and I still remember some basic programming with the BBC Micro so could prob pick it up. But at the same time I would like to work with a programmer as I'd like to focus on the graphical elements of the game.

Thanks for the info.

Do you (Beta1) have a fair experience with DarkBasic? One imediate thought was that it would be nice to import 3D data from Max but a quick glimpse at the website implied you have to build up 3D data by manually typing it in the code. There must be an eaier way than that.

Beta1
17-12-2002, 17:44:59
I have a bit of experience with an earlier version ( I had 1.05 - I have no idea what they are up to now)

You can import 3d models from most 3d packages. I cant remember what the file type is (might be .x? or something) but its pretty easy to do. syntax was something like LOAD OBJECT filepath, object # or something. It really is very simple you create the objects by building them up from primitives or (more simply) importing a file. you then give them the x,y,z coords and the Db engine handles the rest. Collision checking was a bit slow back then and the engine could chug a bit if you werent careful but eben on my old p350 you could throw a lot of stuff around at 40fps. Now I'm runngin a athlon 1ghz I should be able to do a lot more. Anyway try out the demos you should see if its up to what you want to do.

I would say thats a pretty big brief there. The graphics are likely to be the least of your problems, getting the behind the scenes stuff to work will be a major headache. if your expecting AI then thats alot of work as well.

but then thats half the fun.

I'm still toying with a mad max/fallout style driving game. Kinda scrapheap challenge meets elite meets mechwarrior. GTA cars with maching guns. Just still trying to get my head around the car physics. Unless I can figure out how to get GTA stylee physics I'm not going to bother.

I've always wanted to try doing speedball as well.

Resource Consumer
17-12-2002, 18:00:23
Didn't Nav write and program a game once?????

BoltyBoy
17-12-2002, 18:18:55
I'm going to d/l the DB demo and see what I can make of it before dishing the dosh. AI is always the bitxh but like you say this is the fun bit.

Out of interest I had a crack at a 2D above view driving game in Macromedia Flash not long ago. You may find this site useful...

http://home.planet.nl/~monstrous/tutcar.html

Beta1
17-12-2002, 18:21:28
Believe it or not thats the site I was working through. The problems start coming when you start adding collisions. I can figure out how that works in 2d but in 3d the rotative forces really do my head in

BoltyBoy
17-12-2002, 18:53:57
heh yeah that's where my brain overloaded too! I was trying to make a simple buggy game driving between tyres etc.

Resource Consumer
17-12-2002, 19:00:53
"buggy game" - who's got Sid's or Brian's number???

Nav
17-12-2002, 22:52:10
Originally posted by Resource Consumer
Didn't Nav write and program a game once????? Game? More like 'Scripted Random Event Sequence'.

Asher
17-12-2002, 23:16:21
I know DirectX 8 and C/C++/Java, and a tiny bit of OpenGL.

But alas, school keeps me busy these days.

MattHiggs
17-12-2002, 23:45:49
I know Java and Pascal, which is consequently of no use. Plus I'm pretty damn busy nowadays anyway. If I made a game I'd want large sums of money.

Resource Consumer
18-12-2002, 00:31:08
That is based upon the success of the game (presumably a function of your programming skill too), surely?

Venom
18-12-2002, 00:42:18
That puts Nav in Sid Meier's class at least.

Resource Consumer
18-12-2002, 00:44:32
What? Kindergarten?

Venom
18-12-2002, 00:46:46
Kindergarten programming: Done The Easy Way

Sir Penguin
18-12-2002, 01:25:09
I know Java and Python, but neither to any degree sufficient to do something worthwhile.

SP

Asher
18-12-2002, 02:12:28
Aren't you in 2nd year CS?

Sir Penguin
18-12-2002, 02:30:00
No, first year. I just finished my first semester, which had one C SC course (which consisted of learning everything I had learned over the previous year of studying Python off the web, only with Java syntax).

SP

Asher
18-12-2002, 02:35:48
Ah, I see.
First year is a drag.

Asher
18-12-2002, 02:37:41
In our first semester of our first year we used Pascal. (blech).
In our first half of the second semester of our first year we used Java (blech).
In our second half of the second semester of our first year we used C++ (yay).

In one class in my first semester in 2nd year we used Java.
In one class in my first semester in 2nd year we used Python.

Darkstar
18-12-2002, 04:59:30
The AI sounds like it might be fun. The rest of it sounds like simple network/nodal tree coding. Where's the fun in that? :D

Depends on how much code work we are talking...

Vincent
18-12-2002, 07:40:30
I could do it in COBOL or FORTRAN!!!

Sir Penguin
18-12-2002, 07:50:16
Why do people use FORTRAN anyway?

SP

Funkodrom
18-12-2002, 09:57:01
It's what scientists use. It's got great standard charting libraries that have been built up over the years.

Resource Consumer
18-12-2002, 10:05:46
and they can't learn anything else...

Asher
18-12-2002, 10:07:19
FORTRAN is great for numbercrunching, it was then and it still is now.

C/C++/Java and all are much better for designing software though

Nav
18-12-2002, 10:54:00
I could do the web based high-score table!!!

Lurker
18-12-2002, 18:23:21
I can (sometimes) program my VCR to record things when I'm not at home!

Venom
18-12-2002, 18:40:14
I could try and remember all my programming and fuck everything up.

The Shaker
18-12-2002, 18:56:27
Originally posted by Vincent
I could do it in COBOL or FORTRAN!!!

Fantastic, we should team up to produce the best FORTRAN based game in history.

Vincent
18-12-2002, 19:09:23
FORTRAN
It's so ... gay!

BoltyBoy
18-12-2002, 22:58:14
You're all crap except Lurker...reckon he's got the most skill for the job. The first VCR computer game!

I've had a crack at Dark Basic between feeling shit cos of flu and deciding to pass it on to all the other cinema goers while watching LOTR:The Two towers this evening. Good movie but a mate who read the book wasn't that impressed.

I managed to make a simple 3D flight simulator with Dark Basic using an imported 3ds model of a Biplane and including collision detection, complete with groovy terrain to fly over. I'm pretty sure I could have a good crack at the game myself but if folks want to contribute it would be more than welcome.

If anyone is interested I could put a pdf of the game concept up for critical feedback. I doubt the game is big or novel enough for some game developer to take the idea and I'm sure it would benefit from a wide range of feedback you guys could offer. You may all think it's crap in which case I could save wasting my time on it and make a 3D porn game instead.

What you guys reckon? Of course I would like to sell it shareware if does turn out to be any good so I would feel bad if other people offered input and I took all the dosh (if any!) but then is there an alternative? 20p to everyone who gives an idea that is used? I could give a chunk to charity (Boltyboy beer fund for instance). Being a bit presumptious here that I'd even finish it let alone make something out of it! Maybe you all prefer playing games to helping some idiot create a shitty shareware game that'll be downloaded by 20 people.

Oh dear, self-depreciation...I blame it on that damn character in LOTR this evening, the one that grovels to Frodo all the time.

BoltyBoy
18-12-2002, 23:08:21
www.kev.bolt.btinternet.co.uk/zips/flt_sim.zip if you want to check out my first ever programmed game. Use the arrow keys to steer and don't crash in to the white blocks or our plane will get stuck. Also the flying physics is a bit screwed.

BoltyBoy
18-12-2002, 23:08:51
Hell it could be free game of the week right? ;)

Venom
19-12-2002, 01:30:49
Shit once upon a time I knew C++ and all that shit, but that shit sucks so I took to actively forgetting it.

Darkstar
19-12-2002, 01:46:04
You mean, you drink so much you cannot remember anything? Or have you just been so psychologically scarred, you block it out?

Venom
19-12-2002, 02:47:10
Both. The drinking helps promote brain damage and the brain damage makes me drink more.

Darkstar
19-12-2002, 05:44:32
That's nice how they cooperate like that.

Vincent
19-12-2002, 09:14:02
ah, Venom has become a consultant

Beta1
19-12-2002, 13:59:50
Havnt looked at it yet but did you use the built in collision detection or DIY. DIY used to be 2-3 times faster but they may have improved the built in system by now. I was using DB1.06 apparently they are up to 1.13 now. Have been working out the physics on paper. If I have time I'm going to try it out in the demo of DBPro this evening.

For your flash thing did you follow the stuff on that page or not?

In the end I simplified that page a bit - the main problem is the steering, instead of calculating the steering and sideslip on each wheel I have kindof tweeked an old spaceflight system into 2d, the throttle controls the longitudinal force as in the example but the steering is a rotative effect on that force around the centre of mass. I have a feeling it will end up driving like a speedboat instead of a buggy. I might have to do waterworld instead of madmax :)

BoltyBoy
19-12-2002, 15:52:30
I kind of murdered the vehicle physics in my Flash driving game to the extent that it was hardly based on real world physics by the end but a collection of dodgy seemingly random equations.

I just ordered a copy DBPro - so no presents for my bro this xmas! I'm a very impressed with what it has to offer and it's ideal for my level of programming skill (lack of).

Beta1
19-12-2002, 16:02:52
I'm going to play with the demo then order it in january. Gives me time to figure out my own random equations before I get stuck into the coding.

Have this idea - if v1 is the force acting on the vehicle this turn, amd v0 the force last turn so that v1=v0+sum of forces that turn then if I move the center of the bottom of the buggy by v1 but arange it so that the centre of mass moves v0 and rotate/displace the body relative to the wheels to match that then under acceleration then body will move back, under breaking foward and so forth for steering too. In theory if can figure out the rotational effects of the steering I can even feed that in so if get hit by somthing on one side it would spin you round and the body work should follow the spin/roll whatever.

If youve looked into the objects in DB I think I could do this by making the wheels etc a limb to the body work. Well maybe.

Could make this a forum competition, see who comes up with what.

Funkodrom
19-12-2002, 16:11:01
A velocity can't equal a velocity + a force.

You mean

v1 = v0 + a*dt

Where a is the acceleration due to the sum of forces (= total force/mass ) and dt is the time of a 'turn' and the vs are the velocities.

Funkodrom
19-12-2002, 16:12:24
It's really

v1 = v0 + t dv/dt

Where dv/dt is the acceleration

Funkodrom
19-12-2002, 16:18:25
OK this looks like a great summary/introduction to the physics you need.

http://www.cc.gatech.edu/scivis/education/java/kluk/1/m_cont_h.html

Beta1
19-12-2002, 16:39:13
Yep sorry that should be force acting not velocity so each v should be an a (or I suppose F for force) and the yep you need a time in there (otherwise your speed is going to vary with the frame rate...)

The physics isnt that hard for simple motion, even with steering. Its when the you get outside forces (being hit by a projectile etc) that it gets trick and I dont think that I will be able to calculate it fast enough. Hence the bodge approach above. of course I may end up simply deriving the same equations but I think it will be harder to start with an accurate physics model and then bodge inaccurate stuff on top than to start with a more arcade approach at the beggining.

BoltyBoy
19-12-2002, 16:48:20
Then you got the hastle of figuring what angle the vehicle will hit an object at. Maybe DB does this for you, seems to do a lot of handy stuff like that.

Funkodrom
19-12-2002, 16:50:32
If they are hit by a projectile it's only one almost instantaneous force. Just use F=ma to give them a velocity component in the opposite direction to the collision.

Beta1
19-12-2002, 18:38:58
woo its been a while since I used DB and DB Pro has changed a few things.

Beta1
20-01-2003, 16:11:02
Bolty - hows the programming comming.

I ordered the full DB pro on saturday after the demo ran out.

I now have a semi believable car physics and some decent 2d elastic collisions working. Havnt tried 3d but the code should allow for it quite easily (as you just treat it as 3 1D collision and sum the resulting vectors)

Havnt got the car working in 3d yet so it turns and skids ok but no jumping off things yet. Also no turning rolling torques so you cant flip it, although I have implemented collision torques

And at the moment the car is actually a cube but then I havnt bothered with any graphics yet.

Nav
20-01-2003, 16:42:25
I might have a play with DBpro.

My programming skills border on the pathetic (take this site for example.. and no you cant see the source code... :nervous: ), but it might be fun.

Beta1
20-01-2003, 17:22:26
The new version can do multiple simulultaneous cameras - so you can do console style 4-screen multiplayer.

The old version could do it via a trick involving screen capturing and pasting that onto a plane as a texture but was rather slow. Also there are some rather neat new mirroring effects as well...

http://www.darkbasicpro.com/gallery/dbpro_spheremapping.jpg

cool eh?

And no I didnt make that one its off the DBPro gallery

Nav
20-01-2003, 19:59:47
downloaded the wrong one. it ran at a horribly low 640x480. Downloading dbpro trial now.

Foetus
20-01-2003, 23:27:54
I knew Lisp, Prolog, Occam, APL, COBOL, Pascal, Fortran, Parallel Fortran, 8086 Assembly, C, Smalltalk, BASIC, bit of C++, bit of Java, SQL, Forth. Once. Now I can't remember any of it. Except Smalltalk, which is a great language but not for games.

Beta1
21-01-2003, 10:58:17
ah the old DP1 editor - total crap, everyone just used word and imported it into the editor to compile...

The new editor is a great improvement though still not perfect.

Guy
23-01-2003, 13:55:56
All copies of DB should come with a copy of DarkEdit, which gives you a normal, scalable window to do everything in. You shouldn't ever have to use the default (640x480) editor to do anything in DB if you don't want to. If the demo doesn't come with it, you can grab a copy from the links page, or maybe from somewhere in the gallery.

I bought DarkBasic 1.13 a few months ago when they had the big fire sale right before DBPro launched. So far, I think it's great. DBPro looks to be faster and more powerful, but still has a few bugs in the compiler, though I believe a patch is either on the way or just out. I still have a lot to learn with the language before I have to worry about being limited by what 1.13 can do, so I won't be upgrading anytime soon. I'm having a lot of fun playing around and seeing what I can do. Trying to figure out if I can make it do ROAM objects now to dynamically generate planets for a space sim project I've been dinkering around with. :)

Vincent
23-01-2003, 14:35:54
What about DB/2?

Beta1
23-01-2003, 15:51:58
Their up to patch 4 now on DPPro. patch 4 aparently improves the speed quite a lot.

The big difference between 1.13 and pro is that pro is compiled properly into stand alone code where as the original simply welds the interpreter to the start of an optimised DP code to make it stand alone.

Consequently DBPro is much faster.

It also has some new 3d vector maths stuff which as far as I can see is totally useless unless you want every object vector, acceleration and force to become part of a numbered list.

I would rather store them in arrays (eg Object.x object.y object.z) and do the maths myself

Guy
23-01-2003, 17:20:00
My somewhat limited experience has shown that it's just about always faster to write your own routines than use their prepackaged commands anyway, though there are some very neat functions built in.

Did the language change at all for DBPro, or just expand?

Beta1
23-01-2003, 17:37:13
A few things have changed but its mostly expanded stuff.

It seems some but not all (or even most) DB classic programs run on DBPro but it takes some fiddling.

It was certainly always quicker to write your own collision routines but that may have changed now (it should have - that was one of DBs weakest points). It has much better support for .BSP maps now as well so you can do level/world design in any quake/halflife editor and include the textures and lightmaps in DBPro, although if your space simming thats not going to be a lot of help

Guy
23-01-2003, 20:17:09
Probably not, but it's still cool. Hopefully their pricing structure will continue on the model they've used so far and DBPro will drop by 50% by next Christmas.

That's probably about how long it will take me to make a program that actually runs and does what I want anyway. ;)

BoltyBoy
24-01-2003, 15:58:03
Hey sweet Beta1, let me know if you get 3D car physics working cos I got a great car game idea in the works - I say in the works, I actually made a concept document with concept artwork to send to potential developers but I see no reason now why DB Pro couldn't handle it.

I purchased DB Pro and am currently making a Combat Mission type game - I'm finding making a game more addictive than playing em! My current project is going quite well so far, so if anyone who likes the CM style fancies helping out playtesting they'd be most welcome. Will have multiplayer too :)

Nav
24-01-2003, 16:14:44
I want to create a CM game (Championship Manager that is) :)

I downloaded the trial but the stupid sods have removed the tutorials. very helpful. :(

yeah and I'd be happy to test your little game!

Beta1
24-01-2003, 16:14:54
You may get a few takers for that one.

My copy still hasnt arrived so as the demo has timed out I'm stuck.

The physics wsa working fairly well in 2d wsa about to go 3d when the demo stopped. By 2d I mean you could drive around over a flat surface but no jumps/rolls etc yet. I did have proper elastic collisions working seperately but as I only had the car in the other program there didnt seem much point combining them at the time. I really like the new renderer in pro - the spheres are so much smoother and the light sourcing looks great before any tweaks

BoltyBoy
24-01-2003, 16:54:53
Well Beta1 the car idea I had wasn't really original so I don't mind sharing it here...might breed more ideas...

I want to make a first person 3D version of Micro Machines if you ever played that? You know, driving around in cars the size of thimbals. Reckon it could be a good laugh to play, jumping over pepper pots and through puddles of jam etc - don't think it takes much imagination to see the potential for an enjoyable game and I see no reason why it shouldn't be capable to programme in DBPro. The Patch 4 makes 3D worlds display much quicker and I think there'll be some decent colision detection enhancement.

I'd like to work on this project in a team as there'd be much to do programming and 3d object creation so if it were of interest I can elaborate?