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Resource Consumer
20-11-2002, 13:53:52
3 Questions to start with

1. Who's in?

2. BO or BB?

3. How exactly should we administer this?

OK, fire away.

maroule
20-11-2002, 14:04:23
1. I'm in
2. BB
3. no idea. But we could start by finding some time during the week to get a few duels (1vs1) running and see if the results can get into a league table

LoD
20-11-2002, 14:34:12
1. I'm in.
2. BO, if BB, I'm out.
3. Depends on how many players we get. Probably we'll end up with round robin.

Beta1
20-11-2002, 14:46:47
How about we find out whos got which game first?

As far as I know

RC: BO (unless hes got BB recently)
Beta1: BO and BB
Maroule: BB (if youve got BO then tell me)
LoD: BO

We could probably pull in Big game hunter although the game I was playing against him never got past turn 2.

If I can get my home net working properly (and you guys are up for it and can spare an evening) we could play "live" rather than PBEM (or a mix).

Other questions - QB or scenario. If scenario the CM scenario depot probably has some good choices.

How good do you lot rate yourself? From the limited games I've played (1 v RC, 1 v LoD) I reckon us three are all pretty much the same.

maroule
20-11-2002, 14:52:33
I'll play BB for the first time this WE, if I like it, I have no problem buying BO (must be cheap now) but apparently BB is superior to it in almost all aspects (dixit gamesport).

I'll have an idea of my level then. If it's not too far from close combat 3 and 4 (but in 3D of course), I should be competitive after a few defeats

Beta1
20-11-2002, 15:29:57
Originally posted by maroule
I'll play BB for the first time this WE, if I like it, I have no problem buying BO (must be cheap now) but apparently BB is superior to it in almost all aspects (dixit gamesport).

I'll have an idea of my level then. If it's not too far from close combat 3 and 4 (but in 3D of course), I should be competitive after a few defeats

Well of the too I still prefer CMBO, but as I said I havnt had time to really attack BB.

As for the close combat comparison, I think you may be about to learn how company level tactics really work. Like it says in the manual, this aint no RTS click fest and the usual tank rushes etc very very rarely work. In CMBO at least there is no kill all unit, and unless your ready for real worldf tactics the AI is likley to shred you the first few times. If you want a kicking dive into one of the big company levels attacks agasint the AI and see how you go. The AI in CM is much much better than that in CC. Also your going to have a lot of learning which unit is which to do.....

Just saw that RC has got BB now. Well it would kind of work as a sort of round robin system just that maroule and LoD cant play each other. Unless..... Maroule downloads the CMBO demo (as I know LoD has that) then they could play their games on that, and everyone else could play either game...

maroule
20-11-2002, 15:32:43
no problem playing only you to start with,
I'll train a couple of hours first though, you're starting to worry me

Beta1
20-11-2002, 15:36:12
Actually by playing me/RC at CMBB you will level the tables somewhat as he only got it at lunch time (so I'm guessing hasnt played it for more than 4 hours). And although I've had it since october I have been too busy to really learn the new tricks.

maroule
20-11-2002, 15:39:21
c'mon, don't play modest, your experience in BO is bound to make a difference, at first at least

are there any french units? do we have specific bonus to surrender?

Resource Consumer
20-11-2002, 15:43:29
Apparently you can use 5,000,000 points on the Maginot line:)

US and British troops can not enter Paris, only the French ones.;)

maroule
20-11-2002, 15:46:20
hehe
de Gaulle was such a paint in the butt....

LoD
20-11-2002, 15:48:27
pink paint?

Resource Consumer
20-11-2002, 16:01:58
Actually, reading through the CMBB manual it seems that there are no French troops in that games but IIRC there are in BO.

Beta1 or LOD could confirm that.

maroule
20-11-2002, 16:04:23
I was kidding, french forces don't figure very much in WWII wargames (surprise, surprise)

I go Napoleonic when I feel a patriotic urge...

LoD
20-11-2002, 16:04:40
Originally posted by Resource Consumer
Actually, reading through the CMBB manual it seems that there are no French troops in that games but IIRC there are in BO.

Beta1 or LOD could confirm that.

Indeed. There are Free French in BO, but, since BB covers the Eastern Front, no Frog Eaters there ;).

maroule
20-11-2002, 16:07:32
actually, there were french on the eastern front... but on the german side : the elite waffen SS 'charlemagne' division

either drafted by force from alsace lorraine, or simply french anti communist / fascists

Resource Consumer
20-11-2002, 16:22:42
One thing we will all need is a copy of some detailed stats tables.

Beta1
20-11-2002, 16:28:50
LoD is correct there are no French in BB but you can play them in BO. For the other nationals here BO includes Axis (including airbourne/ss/army/volksturm/mountain divisions), US (army/airbourne), UK and commonwealth (army/airbourne), polish (army/airbourne), canadian (army/airbourne), french (army only I think for some reason).


BB Includes Axis (as above + naval, and luffewaffe infantry formations), hungarians (on both sides depending on time point), yugoslavs, finish, russian (millions of different types including airbourne and guards units) and Italian, prob some others too.

The only european areas not covered by either game is the italian penisula and north africa

Theres no pacific bits but then as this was largely infantry island fighting and naval combat it probably wouldnt make quite such a tense game - the japanese didnt really have any tanks to match the US shermans (or even the lighter stuarts) And once youve played either CM game you'll realise that the sherman is pretty crap compared to most german tanks (Pz4 onwards) or Russian tanks (T-34 onwards)

RC - I have EXCEL unit stat tables for CMBO only. I'll post them either when I get the chance includes armor ratings, muzzle velocity/turning rate etc for armour and unit makeup and firepower for infantry. Also penetration for AT guns I think

Resource Consumer
20-11-2002, 16:42:46
:( I know all about how crap Shermans are (didn't make such a good job of Pershings either).:(

Ta for the tables. I'll trawl around some of the sites and see if I can find any BB ones.

LoD
20-11-2002, 16:54:04
Originally posted by Beta1
BB Includes Axis (as above + naval, and luffewaffe infantry formations), hungarians (on both sides depending on time point), yugoslavs, finish, russian (millions of different types including airbourne and guards units) and Italian, prob some others too.

You'll hang for this :mad:!

;)

Beta1
20-11-2002, 17:08:21
Sorry I forgot - I think theres some greek partisans too

LoD
20-11-2002, 17:29:53
:lol:

Beta1
20-11-2002, 22:47:43
Sorry I cant post the xls files as they are not a vaild file type for this board. I've emailed to them RC and LoD. Maroule - if you want them PM me with your email - they only cover CMBO though so they may not be much use!

maroule
21-11-2002, 08:27:27
no need, I'll stick to CMB for the time being
had my first game yesterday night, very fun, german infantery assault of bunkers
There are a lot of similarities, unsurprisingly, with all wargames like squad leader simulating sub tactical combat. Cover, suppression fire, LOS, etc. I'll explore this WE and should be able to play online later next week

Beta1
21-11-2002, 10:48:02
Yep its much more squad leader than close combat.

have you tried out any of the dafter units yet - I like the russian armoured car with 4*.50 MGs on the back.

Also the "tankette" is amusing - if almost totally useless.

My favourite so far is the OT-34/88 ( I think thats right). Its a T-34 with a hull mounted flame thrower. Lovely little tank - its not quite the infantry nightmare that the churchill crocidile is but its pretty scary

maroule
21-11-2002, 11:10:09
havn't work with vehicles yet, but looking forward to it
I'll play around with infantery squads first to learn the shortcuts and the general dynamics before getting to the rest

I overlooked infantery in my younger days, now I'm a fan and I tend to use my tanks as merely support for it (as was the case historically, except for tanks battles like kursk)

Beta1
02-12-2002, 13:18:16
So just to bump this again.

A suggestion for the format.

Everyone plays everyone twice on QB ME 2000points either CMBO or CMBB (up to the players to decide -except maroule and LoD who have to play CMBO demo as thats the only thing they both have.) Players swap sides after first game (ie if your axis first time your allies second time).

Points scored are the victory points allocated at the end of the game.

With 4 players this would be 2 rounds of 3 games (all games in each round played at once so it would be 3 pbems each). SO 6 games total. Of course if people want to play networked thats cool.

Should take about 2 months per round depending on rate of play.

maroule
02-12-2002, 13:20:55
sorry, what's QB ME 2000points ?

Beta1
02-12-2002, 13:57:42
Quick battle, meeting engagment 2000 points.

Using the quick/custom game option from the scenario chooser takes you to a screen where you can set up "skirmish" style games. The map is randomly generated but you can options including date (influences available units), nationality for each side, weather, and then choose you units.

So a Meeting engagment gives neither side the advantage of a defensive position and 2000 points gives about 2 companies of infantry with armor support.

This way removes the advantage of a player who has played every level by having a random map and also prevents players who only ever attack or defend from only doing that.

Downside is the maps can be rather odd

Resource Consumer
02-12-2002, 15:09:05
Sounds pretty fair - I like the idea of players agreeing which version they play - unbeaureaucratic and inclusive. Just one question, though, the victory points in the two versions are on approximately the same scale?

Beta1
02-12-2002, 15:44:29
As far as I know - the final scores are given as percentages in both games so they should be comparable.

Dont know whats happened to LoD - I'll tell him to check in when I send him his next turn. (Should be an interesting turn - I'm trying to take one of the objectives so it would be 2 big flags 1 small to me, 1 small for LoD). Hopefully the loss of moral from that will force a surrender because both sides are fairly shot up - I've gone from about 6 platoons to 2 groups of 3-4 beaten up squads under company leader control due to rather high loss of officers.

LoD seems to be stuck with squads in buildings that are too petrified to fire (or out of ammo)

Currently on something like turn 27-28 out of 35

Resource Consumer
02-12-2002, 15:45:35
He's faster at turns theu I was then:D

Beta1
02-12-2002, 16:34:43
Yep - its mostly me holding things up. When I was writing up we were getting three emails a day at one point.

At the moment I'm limited to 28.8 connection at home. The new flat is on a completely crap exchange and BT have told me to basically pay up for installation of a completely new line or forget getting above 30kbps for the time I'm there. And ADSL is out of the question for the same reason. It would probably be quicker to run it through my mobile (orange can do a reliable 28.8kbs connection). I think I'm going to get a USB pen drive so I can download PBEM turns on the labs superfast janet connection than crawl along at home.

Jon Miller part Deux
03-12-2002, 02:15:50
should I get these games?

I am a big fan of ASL and SL and have lots of other games (the Talon Soft ones, and the SP ones and probably some more I am forgetting)

Jon Miller

Beta1
03-12-2002, 09:51:22
If you like the squad leader games you will probably like the CM games.

Resource Consumer
03-12-2002, 09:55:14
get them - and join the league. :)

LoD
03-12-2002, 19:04:07
Hi guys,

2000 ME QB is fine by me.
Beta, I'll play the turn tomorrow.

Beta1
04-12-2002, 10:08:47
Cool. I guess that gets those guys in the church another days life!

Beta1
04-12-2002, 17:02:34
Next question - Do we make do with running this through a thread or shall we get the management to set up a web page.

And final question - when shall we start?

Resource Consumer
04-12-2002, 18:13:47
Let's let you and LoD finish yours first.

Resource Consumer
04-12-2002, 18:15:00
We can run it through a thread in the competitions forum for now. As long as there aren't so many of us. If we get more than we can approach the management, I imagine.

Beta1
05-12-2002, 09:38:04
Cool - I guess we should aim for the new year - we should be done by then

maroule
05-12-2002, 10:02:28
fine by me

Funkodrom
05-12-2002, 10:07:51
What's the prize / penalty for the top and bottom teams?

Resource Consumer
05-12-2002, 10:40:44
New Year looks good to me.

Prize - forum-wide acclaim

Penalty - forum-wide humiliation.

maroule
05-12-2002, 10:48:34
more probably ; general lack of interest among all other posters

Resource Consumer
05-12-2002, 11:09:39
Most likely:)

LoD
05-12-2002, 15:24:52
BTW, since we both have broadband, Keith, I guess we could play our game via TCP/IP :).

maroule
05-12-2002, 15:39:22
I have ADSL too (but only BB)

Resource Consumer
05-12-2002, 15:44:10
We could. I could play my games against you two on broadband (I have both games). How long do you think we'd need to set aside?

maroule
05-12-2002, 15:54:46
depends the battle we choose, I suspect, let's try with a small one, and set 2 hours

I have time this WE

Resource Consumer
05-12-2002, 15:58:41
I'm away this weekend. I wonder how long a 2000 pointer would take, though.

maroule
05-12-2002, 16:02:55
no clue
I'm mainly playing total war now, have had only one battle on BB

Beta1
05-12-2002, 17:36:27
Just aas a guess I suspect the connection speed wont make much difference - even on a modem a pbem file takes less than a minute to recieve and all a tcp/ip game works just the same way. Lets face it each turn is 2-10 minutes to play/watch then wait for the other guy. If you have the settings pre agreed and your armies already to select playing a 30 turn game shouldnt take more than 2.5 hours.

Beta1
05-12-2002, 17:37:28
Theres a way of limiting the time per turn too so you could make sure it only took x hours.

If you started it as PBEM and were both on-line swapping turns backwards you could do it in 2 1 hour sittings or something

LoD
05-12-2002, 19:09:33
Originally posted by Beta1
Lets face it each turn is 2-10 minutes to play/watch then wait for the other guy.

Errr... don't both players issue orders at the same time? I've never played CMBO in TCP/IP, but that's what the manual indicates...

Beta1
05-12-2002, 22:05:09
Possible I suppose but I thought it was still you, me, watch etc.

Anyway having just played CMBB I forgot how much longer it takes to play compared to CMBO (probably why I still prefer the original). Its just that the maps are much bigger and you get more for your points. (In CMBO 2000-2500 points is 2 companies +support, in CMBB I just bought an entiore battalion (4 companies I think) + 4 T34/85s and a ISU-152 + 3 152mm arty spotters for 2500). Then gave up because I couldnt be arsed to position them across a 2km wide map.

Give me those claustrophobic normandy hills over the steppes anyday.

Resource Consumer
06-12-2002, 09:59:31
Damned cheap Russians. For consistence, sHould we reduce the points cap for CMBB then to something like 2 companies + - so 1000 points in that case?

Beta1
06-12-2002, 10:27:55
Maybe - I'll play around with some numbers tonight/tommorrow and see what different points buy in CMBB.

It doesnt really matter though as the final scoring is a % so if you guys want to play 500 points or 5000 points. Its only really the meeting engagement and the swapping sides thats inportant.

Resource Consumer
06-12-2002, 10:37:31
I was thinking that the battles should be kept to the same scale as the same techniques/equipment combinations are relevant and that allows a better use of experience...

Beta1
06-12-2002, 13:37:27
OK I'll draw up a table of what X points buys you (at regular exp level) Suppose I could do it in both CMBO and CMBB - shouldnt take too long.

LoD
06-12-2002, 15:13:20
Originally posted by Beta1
Possible I suppose but I thought it was still you, me, watch etc.

Given the orders phase/action phase play mode in CMBO, that would be somewhat illogical :)...

Beta1
06-12-2002, 22:30:06
no - i meant like in pbem mode. so i place orders, then wait while you choose yours then we both watch.

any way 2000 points in cmbo & cmbb buys you

cmbb axis
3 companies
3 panzer4f2
150mm and 88mm spotter
+300 points extra

cmbb soviet
3 companies
5 t34 (76mm version)
150mm and 88mm spotter
+300 points over

cmbo axis
3 companies
3 panzer4H
150mm and 88mm spotter
+250 points extra

cmbo allies (brits)
3 companies
4 shermans
3" and 5.5" spotter
+150 points extra

this is following the combined arms ratios. We could play unrestricted but that probably plays into the more experienced players hands so i wouldnt recommend it - if we are all stuck with combined arms ratios them noone can choose a all supertank force, think its invincible and then find it swamped by the oppositions shrecks/zooks.

In all cases used bog standard rifle companies (or nearest type)

For CMBO used brits for comparison as the american comapnies include large numbers of support weapons - you can only get 2 us companies for the price of three brit or german ones but you do need to buy a few MGs to bring them up to the equivelent strength.

So all sides are pretty much equivalent although soviet tanks seem slightly cheaper for equal power (the t-34/75 should be a match for a panzer 4 or sherman and you can get 5 of them - or three/four of the t34/88s)

I would recommend going with 2000 points, meeting engagement, combined arms. Unrestricted choice of army type (so allowing brit/french etc and all the different army options - airbourne etc)

To give a bit of variety maybe unrestricted experience levels. Gives the player the choice between extra men and less experience or fewer, tougher men.

What about map size? Up to the players or set size? I would probably let the players decide all the other factions. Or say that one player gets to choose the other settings in each round? As long as both players know the settings before hand it doesnt bias the game. Obviously if I dont tell you we are playing on a totally flat map with 10 foot of mud and I choose huge numbers of high calibre AT guns and you just have tanks you would be pretty pissed off.

LoD
07-12-2002, 13:42:20
Originally posted by Beta1
no - i meant like in pbem mode. so i place orders, then wait while you choose yours then we both watch.


Yes, but what would be the point of doing this if you're playning on two networked computers?

LoD
13-12-2002, 14:32:36
So, Keith, got some time this weekend?

Beta1
13-12-2002, 15:20:48
So LoD, sent the turn yet?

LoD
13-12-2002, 16:27:50
Yes, about a dozen days ago :)...

Resource Consumer
13-12-2002, 16:29:13
Originally posted by LoD
So, Keith, got some time this weekend?

Nick, not this year:D

I'm off to Manchester this weekend and off to my mother's (read back to dial-up) for the remainder of thee year next weekend.

We'll pick this up again the New Year.

Beta-1,

OK. All sounds reasonable to me.

LoD
13-12-2002, 18:18:39
OK, Keith, I'll get you in 2003 then :D.

Resource Consumer
13-12-2002, 19:39:33
Get those Polish tanks ready to roll:D

LoD
14-12-2002, 10:40:58
Heh, remember when Beta1 was laughing at those Russian twin-turret MG tankettes? Well, I recently saw a picture from 1938 of Polish tanks featuring exactly the same design :)...