PDA

View Full Version : Warcraft III Strats


Resource Consumer
04-11-2002, 10:52:34
I am still trying to get to grips with this and wonder if our RTS experts could give me a few pointers.

At the moment, I am playing as human vs the AI on normal level. I do the usual things - get resources, build farms, barracks et and the hero thingy. However, I seem to be just too slow and I get clobbered between 6 and 8 minutes into the game. One thing I will do is to set the AI to play human as well and then look at the replay from the point of view of the other side.

In the meantime, can anyone suggest a good "quick start" formula/build order that allows me to at least get through the first 6-8 minutes?

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 11:42:57
This is how I start (and I'm sure Shiny can give you a more refined start for humans)


Take 2 peasants and put them into the gold mine. Take the next three peasants and build a house an altar of kings and a Barracks (I start them in that order).

Click your town hall and click to build two peasants. With the town hall selected right click on your nearest forest so that those two peasants go onto wood.

When the peasant finishes building the house send him into the gold mine.

When the two wood building peasants are made build another two peasants and set the rally point on the gold mine so they comes out there. (That makes 5 peasants in the mine)

When the peasant finishes the Altar send him to build a lumber mill (when it's built he automatically goes to lumber duty).

Send the barracks building peasant to build another house then a blacksmiths.

As soon as the altar is finished start building your first hero and when the barracks and second house are finished start building Footmen.

You might want to experiment with building the second house before the lumber mill. Probably a good idea if you are getting rushed.

For your first hero as humans if you are getting rushed after 6-8 mins I'd think about getting the Mountain King. The alternative is the Archmage. If you get the Archmage you must pick Water Elemental as your first power. Gives you a continuous supply of units for defence. If you choose the mountain king then get Storm Bolt, it allows you to stun the opposition hero which can buy you valuable time.

When you are attacked and you are playing as humans don't forget that you can click the call to arms button in the town hall to turn your peasants into militia for 60 seconds which can help you.

Some good stuff that's worth reading here:

http://www.battle.net/war3/

Resource Consumer
04-11-2002, 11:46:26
Cheers. Thanks that's helpful. I think I was probably overbuilding farms and over committing peasants to resources. I had sort of worked out about getting the hero early but had previously gone for the paladin. Forgot about the call to arms buttoon, that might have helped a bit.

I'm going to print this and take home with me and try out tonight - how does it feel to be a strategy guru?:)

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 11:55:03
I would wait until Shiny comes and tells you how to do it properly. :D

You need 5 peasants on gold and at most 6 on wood for humans. I normally get about 4 or 5 and then research the wood cutting upgrades asap.

You do need to build a lot of farms with humans but for your early defence and creeping you need to get 3 footmen and your first hero ASAP. You also need the upgrades from the blacksmith. The paladin is definitely the weakest human hero although you are probably most familiar with him from the campaigns. He's arguably useful as a third hero but you should definitely get the MK or the Archmage first. I'm not sure which but I always get them both, they make a great team.

I possibly build the lumbermill too early but once you have it you can build a guard tower for defence and if you build it in the right place it speeds up your lumber collection.

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 12:11:21
Sit there,
put some people doing gold and lumber
build an altar
build a barracks.
get message from shiny saying 'BUILD A HOUSE!!!!!'
build house
build hero
build a couple of footies,
go off and get killed by wolf.
get message from shiny saying 'GET READY TO ATTACK RACHEL NOW!!'
build a shooter.
take your 5 units off to get massacred by 3 armies of 90 units each.
Sulk.

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 12:17:23
Another useful tip that I didn't know until someone told me.

You can set the rally points of your buildings onto units. This means that you can set all your unit buildings to rally on your hero so wherever your hero is your newly built units will flock to him. This is very handy and you should make sure you do it every time.

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 12:18:07
And don't expect to ever beat Rachel or Shiny, they have just played it too much for us to catch up with the amount of time we get to play.

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 12:24:47
Although teaming with one to beat the other always works :)

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 12:29:18
As long as you team with Rachel. Otherwise you are left shouting "WAIT!!!!!" as Shiny charges off to battle without you.

Shining1
04-11-2002, 12:58:16
I can only suggest a few tweaks to Mike's build order that probably wouldn't mean anything really major, but here goes.

2 peasants on gold, 3 building. Build two peasants at the town hall.

Start the Altar first. Then the Barracks. Then the farm (since the farm will finish much earlier than the other two). You want your hero out as early as possible, so it can pay to do it this way.

Your first peasant from the town hall should go on gold, and probably your second. The only thing you want wood for urgently at this stage is to build your second farm, and you need 20 (two trips) for that, so as long as you can muster that up somehow before your barracks is finished pumping out it's first/second footman, you're fine.

Once you have two farms, a barracks, and a hero, you're whole focus goes to making footmen (there's an alternative defense with towers, but I prefer this one because it works in 2vs2 games as well). Basically, your barracks shouldn't sit idle now until you have between 10-20 (or so) footmen, depending on what you are facing.

Your next building should be a lumber mill, cunningly positioned next to some trees:). The lumber mill lets you build towers, which are very tough against all non-footman opposition you will face during the early game.

What you do after this depends on how you want to play the game. You won't be able to afford to upgrade your townhall, build towers, and pump footmen from more than one barracks all at the same time, most likely. The choice should be to either make a smallish defensive force (say 11 footmen and a hero) and towers, or a larger attacking force (anything up to two full groups of footmen). For the second approach, build another 1-2 barracks so you can get your army out quickly.

Some comments here:
* I *don't* like Riflemen early on. Best only to build these when facing either an airforce or a lot of 'large' size tier 3 units (like Knights or Tauren) where they get full value for their piercing attack. Stick to footmen at the start - switch to Dwarves when the situation encourages it.
* Footmen have the Defend ability, which is great for fighting any creep with a ranged attack. Remember to use it the instant you spot any kind of massed archer support in the enemy army. It can be devastating to use when rushing a Night Elf player at the start, since they can only build archers at that point in the game.
* Remember that towers can't move. If you're playing a multiplayer game and your ally gets rushed by the other team, your towers will be totally useless in coming to their aid. At the same time, a tower costs 50% more than a footman and both dishes out and can take massively more damage than a footman can. If YOU'RE under attack, they rule.


Once you've upgraded your town hall, you've got another set of choices in front of you. You can get another hero, build an expansion, or add some spell casters or siege to your army. The choice should depend on the situation.


Alternative start for turtles)

Immediately build a farm, an altar, and instead of a barracks, a lumber mill. As you build peasants at your town hall, alternate them between gold and lumber until you max your gold and have 4-5 peasants on wood.

Meanwhile, as the lumber mill is building, build as many scout towers in a line next to your town hall as you can afford. 4-5 will be enough, though you won't manage to make that many so quickly.

Once the lumber mill is finished, start upgrading the scout towers. Get a Mountain King and the Storm Bolt ability (good for stunning heros). Concentrate on finishing your 5 towers, then start playing properly with a barracks or two.

I don't really like this tactic for two reasons:
* It puts you behind your opponent if they don't attack you early on and just go out creeping, etc.
* Again, towers can't move, and if you have an ally who builds up normally and gets rushed, you've pretty much lost the game.


RC: Definitely watch the computer's replay. My first skirmish game ended with an easy victory for the Orc A.I and me being pissed off at the insane cheating the computer was doing. Then watching the replay and going 'Oh, I'm such a moron' over and over as I saw what a lame assed effort I had made and some of the cool tricks the comp had use (like sticking the waypoint flag on their hero so new units would automatically run to him).

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 13:23:13
You are only tweaking the build I'm using after you told me it. :D

I like building the house first 'cause then that guy can get into the mine and I have notorious problems getting enough wood so starting the collection early might help.

I've never played the AI on a skirmish. :hmm:

Shining1
04-11-2002, 13:24:56
You don't have time:D

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 13:30:40
True, if I had time for that I'd play an MP game with someone instead.

Resource Consumer
04-11-2002, 13:31:59
Thanks guys - I will definitely be getting some practice in tonight.

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 13:35:46
I'm not at home tonight but anytime you want a friendly/training type MP game and I'm around just let me know.

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 13:44:13
Oh RC, if you do want MP practise try me.

I still have never beaten the computer on a skirmish game.

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 13:47:49
3 way FFA!

Shining1
04-11-2002, 13:48:01
MUWHAHAHAHAHA:D

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 13:48:39
Except... I forgot I was going out tonight for a work birthday thing and my room's locked so you won't be able to go online until I get back... sorry.

Shining1
04-11-2002, 13:58:09
Evilness of the highest degree!

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 14:00:19
Oh fuck I wanted to job seek as well :(

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 14:02:33
Sorry. I would have left it open if I'd remembered. Blame the bloody Estate Agent bastards.

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 14:04:26
Right that's it, i'm going to become really good at this game and kill you.

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 14:15:33
Good.

Shining1
04-11-2002, 14:51:23
Well, he won a lot of games last night:). Paired with either Kiwi he is a dominating force...

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 15:03:24
Yeah and I didn't get to play. :mad: :bash:

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 15:10:59
Don't worry, there were some excellent games :)

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 15:12:51
Wankers. :(

Shining1
04-11-2002, 15:18:58
Yeah the one with the mutual base destruction was highly amusing:).

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 15:22:15
Very surreal, I thought either side might break off and defend, but no, it was whoever killed the others base the quickest :)

Tau Ceti
04-11-2002, 15:26:51
I play a slightly different variant of the initial builds (and we are talking details here, but the initial builds are fairly well defined). What I have found is that if I build the altar first, my hero stands around for a while waiting for enough support troops to be built. In order to minimize this waiting time, I have started to build the barracks first of all, followed by the farm and the altar. Actually, I usually put three peasants in the mine and use the first one I train to build the altar.

This means about a 20-25 second delay in getting your hero on the map, but there is very little he could have done in that time anyway, unless you were planning a hero rush. You could also get hero rushed yourself, but unless the other player is extremely quick and the map tiny, those few seconds are unlikely to make much of a difference. Instead, you are able to start creeping a bit earlier and gain a little gold.

The Shaker
04-11-2002, 15:34:50
memo to self:- Rush Tau on Tiny maps.

Funkodrom
04-11-2002, 15:43:51
Hmmm... interesting idea Tau.

Shining1
04-11-2002, 17:38:13
Makes good sense from that perspective.

Tau Ceti
04-11-2002, 23:43:34
Originally posted by Shining1
Yeah the one with the mutual base destruction was highly amusing:). Finally had time to watch the replay of that (need to do it before I patch up too :bash:). It is a great one. The attacks are synchronized nearly to the second. Found out where all my ghouls went too - they impaled themselves on the orcs' spiked barricades. :o

After that it is a display of appalling timing. Shiny ports in to defend his expansion, while my army is scattered all over the place (and does not consist of much after all the ghouls died). Eventually I port in as well - with only two heroes. The battle is essentially a 2v1, and is quickly lost, so I port out again - just as my four frost wyrms arrive. They proceed to valiantly fight alone against two armies for the next 5 seconds or so. :(

I also accidentally forgot two wyrms in Shiny's base before we attacked. I wondered why I had so few. :nervous:

LadyRachel
05-11-2002, 05:46:09
Originally posted by Tau Ceti
Found out where all my ghouls went too - they impaled themselves on the orcs' spiked barricades. :o

Wooooo! I knew I was researching that for a reason, even if I couldn't tell myself what it was at the time. I've never seen them actually be much use before...

Funkodrom
05-11-2002, 10:44:55
Patch means you can't watch replays again?! :bash:

I haven't even watched any on the last patch yet! Wankers.

Funkodrom
05-11-2002, 10:45:21
How come this patch is out so fast anyway? The last one was only a couple of weeks ago wasn't it?

LadyRachel
05-11-2002, 17:36:37
No, you can't watch old replays with new patches, because of the way that the replays work. It is an actual rePLAY of the game, not a recording of it - the game takes the orders you made and plays them out again according to the game's rules. So, as one example, you played a game in version 1.03 where you used the Avatar power, killed a lot of enemies, and then used it again 130 seconds later to do the same thing. When you upgrade to 1.04, it plays out that first use of Avatar, and the subsequent killings, but cannot play out the second use, since Avatar now has a 180 second cooldown. Which changes that replay rather dramatically.

The Shaker
05-11-2002, 18:26:10
but you can still try?
maybe i won some of them in the replay :)

Funkodrom
05-11-2002, 18:39:24
Originally posted by LadyRachel
No, you can't watch old replays with new patches, because of the way that the replays work. It is an actual rePLAY of the game, not a recording of it - the game takes the orders you made and plays them out again according to the game's rules. So, as one example, you played a game in version 1.03 where you used the Avatar power, killed a lot of enemies, and then used it again 130 seconds later to do the same thing. When you upgrade to 1.04, it plays out that first use of Avatar, and the subsequent killings, but cannot play out the second use, since Avatar now has a 180 second cooldown. Which changes that replay rather dramatically.

Yes, I know that but surely they could just engineer the game so that it loads the unit/building stats when it starts the replay playback based on what patch it's using? I don't see that that would be impossible.

Sean
05-11-2002, 18:42:28
Nerd.

Funkodrom
05-11-2002, 18:44:54
Fair.

The Shaker
05-11-2002, 18:49:49
I finally got the drivers to run my old 486 box with linux as a proxy for my ADSL

Funkodrom
05-11-2002, 18:57:03
You can stop stealing the cable bandwidth then! :bash:

The Shaker
05-11-2002, 19:26:51
I was getting the patch :)

Shining1
06-11-2002, 00:14:12
Mike: Yes they could, except:

* It would take work. Work sucks.
* The main point of replays is to learn the game. Watching games under old patches doesn't help very much.
* It would probably quadruple the size of the replay files holding all the unit data for that patch.

Sean
06-11-2002, 00:19:20
It wouldn’t have to, just maintain a version history somewhere.

Shining1
06-11-2002, 00:31:30
Frankly I'm happy with them just having stable code. No need to introduce huge complications by being able to run older versions of the game.

Funkodrom
06-11-2002, 09:46:15
I don't see that it would be a major complication. You need to load the unit and building stats from somewhere, they aren't huge amounts of data to store, they wouldn't need to be in the save file. Just in the game files somewhere.

Sometimes you want to watch replays to learn the game, but I normally want to watch them to laugh at all the funny stuff that's happened in our MP games.

Shining1
06-11-2002, 10:29:29
True.

I think the problem is just that it would be a complication, and since the replay viewer uses the exact same engine as the actual game, they didn't want that. Complications = potential exploits, and are therefore bad.

Funkodrom
06-11-2002, 10:43:26
Hmmm... yes I suppose if there was a stat file somewhere and people could work out how to change them it could cause problems. They could only store the old values for the replay viewer though and keep the current ones stored however they are at the moment. Anyway I'm sure it could be done and would save pissing everyone off everytime they tweaked stuff.

Shining1
06-11-2002, 10:55:19
It could definitely be done. They just have other priorities, however. Like getting the game into some kind of a balanced state:).

Funkodrom
06-11-2002, 10:59:01
It's not something to add on. It's something that should have been done to start with. I think the little things like this matter a lot.

Shining1
06-11-2002, 11:27:33
Given the state WarcraftIII started in, that wouldn't really have been possible. It's become almost a totally different game in the meantime.

Funkodrom
06-11-2002, 11:46:45
Why not? When they said, we want replays why didn't someone say, yeah and they should be able to play old versions of replays too. Or maybe they weren't thinking about patches?

Shining1
06-11-2002, 11:51:18
I think they were barely thinking about replays. The replay code was included in Starcraft only after patch 1.08, and was probably copied over almost wholesale from that game.

Starcraft, of course, is about as balanced as it's going to get, so you don't really need a viewer that's compatible with old patches. Warcraft, of course, doesn't have that luxury, but it probably wasn't considered in the rush.

Funkodrom
06-11-2002, 12:04:05
Replays and balancing patches are part of life for modern RTSes. It might seem a minor bitch but the patches come out before I ever have time to watch a replay of any of our games so I've only seen one of our MP games ever and there have been some brilliant ones I'd love to see again. It's really, really annoying. :bash:

Anyway, stop making excuses for them you Blizzard Fanboy. :D

Whatever the reason (and I don't really care what it was) it is annoying that you can't watch replays on later patches and it would have been really good if they'd put it in.

Resource Consumer
07-11-2002, 09:51:29
Well,

I made a game last 30 minutes last night on the Booty Bay map. Oh, I lost badly but watching the replay I can see where I cocked up and, also, where the AI cocked up. It was not inconceivable that I could have won.

My mistakes

(1) not enough creeping. How much is enough, how much is too much.
(2) not thinking ahead and securing another gold mine
(3) sending my peasants to a more distant gold mine than was needed:o (stupid oversight on my part).

Interestingly, the AI got one of its heroes and a bunch of troops marooned on an island. If I had attacked then I probably still would have lost (there were some knights etc lurking at the town centre) but if I had done things better and had a stronger army I could have attacked then.

Overall, a considerable improvement as the AI clearly chooses not to attack me so early so I must be doing something right.

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 10:03:32
Excellent. Maybe if you are stronger early the AI will decide not to rush you.

Sounds like you are making progress, and you know how to improve. Now you can learn the fun stuff. :beer:

Resource Consumer
07-11-2002, 10:38:02
I am keeping it simple - humans vs humans at the moment. Don't want too many complications. The real fun is later with the scissors-paper-stone (maybe a bit unfair but that's how I regard trade-offs in all games).

Interesting that the AI makes a rush/no-rush decision. It must mean that it had got close enough to my base to spot the lack of troops.

Note : need then to station a scout out a bit further (which I did in the 30 min game)

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 10:51:45
It is basically scissors paper stone.

It got close enough or it did an AI cheat and just knew what you had.

Scouting is a great idea. If you get far enough in the game you can fully upgrade your sourcerors and get them to make a unit invisible to scout with.

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 10:53:40
I've lost a few games to being outscouted. Rachel, Shiny and especially Tau Ceti are very good at adapting to what you have based on scouting. I say especially Tau because I lost two games to him recently, one a large FFA and one a 1v1 based largely on the fact that he outscouted me.

Then again outscouting is generally based on a much better understanding of the game. I'm still concentrating a bit too much on the basics. :D

Resource Consumer
07-11-2002, 11:04:30
I didn't want to suggest that it was an AI cheat. I am too polite for that.

on AoK. You more or less knew to the second when the AI was going to show up. Now, it's a lot more interesting.

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 11:08:38
Well, to be fair it's not easy to make an AI capable of analysing something as complicated as an RTS game and make it play as well as a human. The AI might have scouted, you'll be able to see on the replay.

Resource Consumer
07-11-2002, 11:22:25
I have patched.;)

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 11:49:25
ARGH!!!!

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 11:49:46
Gay, gay, gay, gay, gay. :bash:

The Shaker
07-11-2002, 11:50:05
The AI still wastes me every time.
:(

The Shaker
07-11-2002, 11:51:51
???

Shining1
07-11-2002, 11:59:02
Okay, some basic information on how the Blizz A.I works (generally speaking).

The A.I can always see what you are doing. It knows what you are building, where your base is, how the map is laid out, etc. Essentially, it has a maphack (no fog of war).

The second thing it does is build various combined arms groups based on some fairly simple decision making - the best example was Starcraft vs. Protoss early on, where new players would constantly find themselves being rushed by a group of 12 zealots. That was the first build group for the Protoss A.I.

Occasionally you can fool it, too:). The Zerg had a definite response to air units - build scourge. I had one game where I massed 12 Wraiths (Terran fighter jets) in my base, but attacked the A.I with 3 siege tanks and 12 marines. However, the A.I kepts counting up the units I had, and always decided that it desperately needed anti-air (my airforce cost at least double my ground force). So the result was that my tanks and marines were constantly being swarmed by the little Zerg air-air counter units. An easy win.

The Warcraft A.I probably won't make that kind of mistake, but it definitely has the capacity to play badly if it messes a choice up. Likewise, if it gets things right, it can go very very well.

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 12:22:54
Might as well play vs. humans then.

Tau Ceti
07-11-2002, 18:21:55
Originally posted by Funkodrom
I've lost a few games to being outscouted. Rachel, Shiny and especially Tau Ceti are very good at adapting to what you have based on scouting. I say especially Tau because I lost two games to him recently, one a large FFA and one a 1v1 based largely on the fact that he outscouted me. Thanks for the praise, Funko, but comparing me to those two is close to insulting them. The scouting did allow me to hit you when you had no army, but it was much a case of being lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. I am no good at adjusting forces - usually I have nearly my entire army built by the time I start scouting seriously, so there is not much to adjust. Watch Rachel with the elves to see real scouting prowess.

(That FFA was still a great game, though! :beer:)

Shining1
07-11-2002, 18:47:09
Hey! No way is Tau better than Rachel:).

Shining1
07-11-2002, 18:49:56
Excuse me I am drunk and tired and stupid. Oh, and evil.

Tau Ceti
07-11-2002, 19:07:55
Can't argue with either of those two posts.

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 19:08:12
I didn't mean it like that... I wasn't implying anyone was better than anyone else. We all know Rachel is the best. :D

You three are just the three people I have played against that actually seem to scout and use the results of the scouting.

The Shaker
07-11-2002, 19:55:52
Bastard, I shall endeavour to scout you to death.


Actually those pants don't go with those socks.

Funkodrom
07-11-2002, 20:15:10
But... I'm not wearing any pants.

The Shaker
07-11-2002, 20:16:38
Wow, you're right, at first i thought it was strange for someone to wear hair pants..but now i look closer..

Shining1
08-11-2002, 09:25:48
You fool!

Funkodrom
08-11-2002, 09:39:45
It's OK, he's not looking close enough to see anything.

Shining1
08-11-2002, 10:46:33
Just trying is bad enough!

Funkodrom
08-11-2002, 10:50:48
It's just healthy curiosity.

Resource Consumer
08-11-2002, 11:08:44
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Gay, gay, gay, gay, gay. :bash: