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Scabrous Birdseed
01-11-2002, 15:20:41
Plato claimed that there's only one form of good music, and that every attempt to deviate from this form should be labelled decadent and should be punished severely.

It's my informed philosophical opinion that Plato was a tosser.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 15:39:31
I read The Republic up until the bit where he started describing his education system, got about half way though that and stopped reading because his ultra fascistic views made me too angry. Actually what annoyed me most was the way it was written as arguments with Socrates but the people arguing with Socrates would never ask the questions I wanted them to ask and to hear him answer. :bash:

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 15:44:09
With my very, very basic knowledge of philosophy it's my opinion that Plato was a smug tosser.

protein
01-11-2002, 15:52:49
In my humble opinion philosophy is a load of talking bollocks for no reason. A bit like the effects of Speed.

Debaser
01-11-2002, 15:55:39
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Plato claimed that there's only one form of good music, and that every attempt to deviate from this form should be labelled decadent and should be punished severely.

It's my informed philosophical opinion that Plato was a tosser.

Yeah, but Plato also said that nothing really exists, and all we see or hear is just a physical manifestation of the idea of the thing we think we're seeing or hearing. Anyway he copied all his ideas off Aristotle (or however you spell it).

Are you sure he said that? I thought Plato was quite against the idea of punishment for beliefs, and hated the idea that someone in a position of power's opinion counted for more than your ordinary guy on the street.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 15:56:52
In a lot of ways it's like Physics or Religion in that it's a different way of trying to work out the big questions of why we're here and what it's all about. Religion requires faith, Physics requires experimental proof, philosophy requires 3 lectures a week and mind expanding drugs. </troll>

protein
01-11-2002, 15:58:48
I wouldn't put physics and religion in the same league.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 15:59:53
Originally posted by Debaser
Are you sure he said that? I thought Plato was quite against the idea of punishment for beliefs, and hated the idea that someone in a position of power's opinion counted for more than your ordinary guy on the street.

Hmmm from what I read in The Republic what he was saying was basically the opposite of that. The public need to be trained into their beliefs by a state which made sure they never learnt anything that might disrupt the state.

Debaser
01-11-2002, 16:00:18
I was quite a fan of that guy who could never get past the idea that nothing existed outside his own imagination (it is impossible to prove). I think his name was Descart or Daycart or something.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:03:58
Originally posted by protein
I wouldn't put physics and religion in the same league.

But they are different ways of answering the same questions effectively. They've both affected the way we live now. From religion we've gained the general moral standards that basically form the basis of our criminal law and allow our society to function. Physics has given us technology that's allowed us to pursue our modern lives. We need the history of both to get us where we are now.

And I'm not at all religious and I am a physics graduate. Philosophy has very important implications for both physics and religion. The ancient philosophers tended to be mathmaticians and scientists as well as philosophers as there were so many links between them.

Debaser
01-11-2002, 16:05:23
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Hmmm from what I read in The Republic what he was saying was basically the opposite of that. The public need to be trained into their beliefs by a state which made sure they never learnt anything that might disrupt the state.

But he used to complain at great length about how politicians got into positions of power because they were good public speakers, not because they had good morals and beliefs.

There's that whole Simile of the Cave thing about how people in power only tell the proletariat what they want them to hear, so as to keep them in the dark about the truth of issues. Plato encourages the proletariat to seek the truth for themselves, not just blindly follow what they are told.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:08:18
Hmmm... need K_G or Scabby to come in and clear that one up. I don't know enough about it.

protein
01-11-2002, 16:08:33
It is true in a way. What you think is real is only your minds reconstruction of data received from your senses. Your memory is very unreliable too.

Hmmm. *strokes imaginary beard*

Debaser
01-11-2002, 16:10:04
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Hmmm... need K_G or Scabby to come in and clear that one up. I don't know enough about it.

I knew me philosophy A level would come in handy one day.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:12:48
You've got a philosophy A level? No wonder you were so stoned all the time at college.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:13:17
Originally posted by protein
It is true in a way. What you think is real is only your minds reconstruction of data received from your senses. Your memory is very unreliable too.

Hmmm. *strokes imaginary beard*

What were we talking about?

protein
01-11-2002, 16:14:59
Originally posted by Funkodrom
But they are different ways of answering the same questions effectively. They've both affected the way we live now. From religion we've gained the general moral standards that basically form the basis of our criminal law and allow our society to function. Physics has given us technology that's allowed us to pursue our modern lives. We need the history of both to get us where we are now.

And I'm not at all religious and I am a physics graduate. Philosophy has very important implications for both physics and religion. The ancient philosophers tended to be mathmaticians and scientists as well as philosophers as there were so many links between them.
If you're thinking of the bible's morals - I thought they were stolen from the greeks anyway. I think that answering a question with "because god made it so" or "because it is written" is pointless.

Resource Consumer
01-11-2002, 16:19:39
I thought about studying philosophy.....once

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:23:45
One of the major areas of philosophy is regarding God, whether concepts like that are valid or not. You think it's pointless because you don't believe in God. If someone does then it's perfectly sensible.

As we can't prove, physically, theologically or philosophically whether God exists or not then it's only a matter of opinion whether Physics or religion better answers the fundamental questions of existence. Philosophy makes no claims of it's own but, in part, is a way of using logic to validate or invalidate some of the claims of the others.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:24:40
That said, I'd like to see God microwave my dinner.

Debaser
01-11-2002, 16:25:35
Originally posted by Funkodrom
You've got a philosophy A level? No wonder you were so stoned all the time at college.

Yup, I've got a philosophy A level. I had to study the Republic for 4 months of my life. At A level you don't actually do any philosophising. It's more like English literature A level, just studying other peoples work .

Debaser
01-11-2002, 16:26:56
Originally posted by Funkodrom
That said, I'd like to see God microwave my dinner.

*Voice of God*

"Do it yourself you lazy bastard"

Resource Consumer
01-11-2002, 16:27:34
Originally posted by protein
If you're thinking of the bible's morals - I thought they were stolen from the greeks anyway. I think that answering a question with "because god made it so" or "because it is written" is pointless.

Greeks don't have any morals - look at Apolyton

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:28:15
Oh god. At least reading it in my own time I could just stop when I wanted to.

Funkodrom
01-11-2002, 16:31:13
Originally posted by Debaser
*Voice of God*

"Do it yourself you lazy bastard"

That's a god I can relate to.

Scabrous Birdseed
01-11-2002, 18:27:09
Originally posted by Debaser
Yeah, but Plato also said that nothing really exists, and all we see or hear is just a physical manifestation of the idea of the thing we think we're seeing or hearing. Anyway he copied all his ideas off Aristotle (or however you spell it).

Are you sure he said that? I thought Plato was quite against the idea of punishment for beliefs, and hated the idea that someone in a position of power's opinion counted for more than your ordinary guy on the street.

Considering Aristotle was born after Plato died, it's my informed opinion that you've got them mixed up. :)

Debaser
01-11-2002, 18:31:44
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Considering Aristotle was born after Plato died, it's my informed opinion that you've got them mixed up. :)

Socrates! That's the dude I was thinking of. Plato was his student wasn't he?

Sean
01-11-2002, 18:34:22
So Socrates is how you spell Aristotle.

Debaser
01-11-2002, 18:36:12
No, Aristotle is how I spell Socrates.

Sean
01-11-2002, 18:37:21
And Plato is how I spell Pele.

Scabrous Birdseed
01-11-2002, 18:39:28
Socrates. Yeah. But socrates didn't go on about perfect form and how everyone should stop coming up with actual ideas before the age of forty, the little scamps.

Aldous Huxley based Brave New World on Plato's Republic, I think that says it all really.

Darkstar
02-11-2002, 06:36:17
You know, it is true. For a state to be most stable/secure, it wants the peons to know only what it wants them to know, and nothing more. To have a filter between the outside world and them is best...

And ignorant people are the happiest people. They literally don't know anything better exists, and are happy with their current status. Generally speaking.

Why is the speed of light (c) 186,000 mps? Why isn't it faster or slower? There's many things in physics that generally amount to 'because it is'. And anything can be extended to a religious status. Just depends on the person using it.

Lazarus and the Gimp
02-11-2002, 07:54:10
This is the third time I've clicked on this thread only to be too intimidated to post anything.

*End Is Forever*
03-11-2002, 03:23:22
It's my informed Philosophical opinion that Philosophy is a pile of wank.

King_Ghidra
04-11-2002, 11:53:08
Originally posted by protein
In my humble opinion philosophy is a load of talking bollocks for no reason. A bit like the effects of Speed.

Originally posted by End is Forever
It's my informed Philosophical opinion that Philosophy is a pile of wank.

well you're both ignorant but thanks for taking time out to let us know

unless you're trolling there is no point in making stupid ass statements like that - you might like to think you're saying something exciting and controversial and the world will wake up and realise that this discipline which encompasses every aspect of human behaviour and pursuit is somehow worthless, but isn't it more likely you will just end up making yourselves look like stupid twats

protein
04-11-2002, 11:56:39
That's nice Phil. You've brightened my day yet again.

protein
04-11-2002, 11:58:32
That's rich coming from the most arrogant twat I've ever met.

King_Ghidra@home
04-11-2002, 18:57:52
no you misread, i said ignorant not arrogant

do i take it in the two minutes since the first reply that you worked yourself into such a rage you couldn't help but insult me

btw keep on insulting something you don't understand and i'll keep on calling you stupid

when i do the same you can call me stupid and i'll take it on the chin

Sean
04-11-2002, 18:59:11
Interesting how those who study philosophy seem a lot more argumentative. Also interesting how protective K_G is of it.

Lazarus and the Gimp
04-11-2002, 19:29:12
Ah. Fights. Now fights are something I understand.

protein
04-11-2002, 22:34:43
You called me a twat and I thought that was arrogant of you. So I did the same. Which was childish of me.

protein
04-11-2002, 22:36:33
twat. twat. twat.

Darkstar
05-11-2002, 07:43:32
K_G... Philosophy is a big useless wank. Since it's all about human belief and behavior. And that's all (about) wank.

The fact that philosophy covers many belief frameworks, from the earliest known and worked out by Mannkind to the most current, that many of those frameworks were fleshed/worked out by generations as a stable working system, and that many of those frameworks have become part of everyone that reads this post's philosphy and belief, so what? It's all just a few guys wanking off.

No need to get hostile about it, is there? Or you just trying to kick off a Philosophy troll/wank?

King_Ghidra
05-11-2002, 09:44:42
For starters, as far as the hostile thing goes, calling people twats on this board has never been considered that hostile in my experience

Secondly, if I call someone stupid because I believe they have made an invalid and ignorant comment, and rather than defend their opinion they choose to insult me personally then who is in the wrong?

Thirdly, Protein calling me the most arrogant twat he has ever met is all the more insulting in that having known him personally for several years he should know better. Of course if he really does think that then he should stop being so two faced and say it to me rather than on a fucking message board. Then next time he wants to nick a cigarette off me I’ll tell him where to fucking stick it.

Fourthly, I am not trying to kick off any kind of troll – it was protein and end is forever who I considered to be trolling, and you seem to be doing a fair job of it yourself. I am more than happy to explain why I consider philosophy to be an important subject and why I am so defensive of it:

I studied philosophy at university. At that time of my life I was in a very strange intellectual state, being aware that there was a huge world of art, literature, political and social thought out there that I only had a kind of barely started jigsaw picture of. I had actually just had a strange kind of love affair with Marxist communism and had decided it wasn’t right for me, despite the fact that it had been incredibly exciting intellectually.

Studying philosophy changed everything. Every preconceived notion I ever had, every bit of dogma, every assumption I held about the world and myself was open to question. I spent a few weeks just trying desperately to work out what, if anything, I believed in. If I couldn’t justify the things that I felt or said or believed in, why was I feeling or saying or believing them? I felt like my existence up to that point had been a lie, that my mind had effectively been in someone else’s pocket, or worse, that I had simply been blind ignorant.

It was a bizarre and uncomfortable time, on the one hand I was the sociable and near permanently pissed student in the evening, on the other the nihilistic lonely person in the daytime. Nevertheless over a lot of time and a lot of thinking and learning I reconstructed my world and my belief system, dare I say it, in my own image. Now, I am a lot happier and more confident of my opinions because I can honestly say I believe the things I say. Not only that but I consider myself to be more open minded now than before.

The question goes, ‘would you rather be a happy fool, or an unsatisfied genius?’ or something. That choice is out of our hands, we all have enough education to know that there is a world of the intellect and knowledge out there. We can either reject it or embrace it.

Philosophy made me happier, better equipped to deal with the world and with my own thoughts and feelings. When people rubbish it, I can only assume they are either ignorant of philosophy or ignorant as a life choice.

Funkodrom
05-11-2002, 10:33:34
I have only 'studied' philosophy to a very basic level. Read a few things and had some interesting discussions with K_G about a few things. That's enough to know that it certainly isn't wank.

K_G: I did think that EiF was just trolling Scabby in the traditional 'your degree course is gay' type way and that protein wasn't at his most serious with his dismissal of philosophy. Maybe you took them a bit too seriously 'cause it happens to be a subject you care strongly about?

protein
05-11-2002, 12:48:31
I am reading an excellent book on Buddhist Philosophy by Thich Nhat Hanh for the second time at the moment. But I tend not to talk a load of wank about it.

Funkodrom
05-11-2002, 12:51:10
I guess there's not enough time to talk a load of wank about every subject. ;)

protein
05-11-2002, 12:56:52
True. I usually jack off about music.

*End Is Forever*
05-11-2002, 16:13:40
Funko's right, I was just trolling Johan; admittedly I'm somewhat sceptical when it comes to philosophy (though not sceptical in the philosophical sense) and think a lot of it is just meaningless crap, there are certainly extremely interesting and relevent strands to philosophy, particularly when applied practically. You're all twats.

Lazarus and the Gimp
05-11-2002, 18:03:03
I can't help thinking that the positive side-effects KG mentions can also be achieved by getting laid. It's amazing philosophy ever took off.

Darkstar
06-11-2002, 08:28:40
:lol:@The Gimp.

KG, I thought I presented both sides fairly well and evenly. It still amounts to wank. Most people do not think, 'Well, I believe in Goodness and Rule of Law, therefore I will not do this.' Most people just *react*. Mob mind, group think, whatever you want to call it, but just going on reactions is wanking. Rationalizing why you wank, and why wanking is right or wrong, is wank as well.

You are talking you did a lot of wanking about why you wank the way you wank and when you wank. Good for you if it made you happy. As Laz said, getting laid generally does the same thing for people. But everyone walks and stumbles down their own path. So long as you grow and learn, you are doing well and using your brain. More power to you, lead the way, and don't forget to stop by the pub for a couple of beers.

It is healthier to be an ignorant blissful wanker then an educated genius agonizing over wanting to wank but not daring to at that time.

The masses of humanity prefer to stay ignorant. Heck, the majority of this board would rather remain ignorant, and most here like to learn minutia about their interests. But they really don't want to learn about EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING is boring. How many people fell asleep in history courses? Most. But let Laz put on more 'natural' or 'interesting' angle or twist to the telling, and we are clamoring for more. That's the same thing with knowledge. Most of it is boring trivia that simply has no relation to anything you do or know. And most of it never will. Philosophy falls into that category for most people, regardless that it might be useful under certain circumstances. But then again, how to make a compost pile can be useful under certain circumstances, but most urbanites are not going to go out of their way to learn that either. Or be interested in it, until they discover they have a use for it.

If that offends you, then I think you need to go spend more time at the monastery, trying to discover the sound of one hand clapping. And meditate on the fact that most people are just ignorant long pigs, looking to slip off and wank some more.