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DaShi
20-06-2002, 00:56:08
It seems that NWN is off to a bumpy start. Lots of install problems and crashes. Fortunately, Bioware is right on the ball and have released a speedy patch. Although tech. support complaints are supposed to go to Interplay, Bioware has provided a forum where players can share info on how to solve problems; in addition, they have one of there own guys there to help.
This is how QA should be done.

http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewforum.html?forum=49

Sean
20-06-2002, 08:24:07
No, it should work right out of the box :rolleyes:. They should do QA before release.

King_Ghidra
20-06-2002, 10:26:35
PC software is compete bitch to test. I should know - i do it for a living. All you can do is reduce the risk of major faliures occurring in the most important areas of functionality. Of course install is one of those, but i don't know the types of OS and hardware configs it is failing on so i can't really comment beyond that.

My sympathy is with them, they seem to be doing their best. PC's really are a bitch.

Shining1
20-06-2002, 10:45:02
Sean - it's a bit rich to insist that game that revolves entirely around the possibility of web-based D&D can't use good tech support to overcome a bumpy launch...

MDA
20-06-2002, 14:09:40
Excellent thread title - we should take up a collection to get Darkstar a backup system to play games on - JUST IN CASE his regular box won't work. :p (blatant attempt to see if he's lurking)

Sean
20-06-2002, 16:24:20
Shining, Sin got roasted for realeasing a patch so quickly, the assumption being that the game was rushed. Why does NWN get praised for being rushed?

DaShi
20-06-2002, 16:39:05
We like Bioware better. :D

Shining1
21-06-2002, 02:54:07
Yes we love Bioware!:)

Also, the Sin patch wasn't just an early patch, it was a 20 MEG compulsory early patch for virtually everyone. There's a difference between some schmoo with a tiny config problem not being able to install and everyone having to get a massive patch to fix their game.

But mostly it's we :heart: Bioware;).

Darkstar
22-06-2002, 08:45:01
My NWN is still in its box at the moment. I was just thinking about it.

And right now, my backup computer is my new notebook. :D

Herman
22-06-2002, 22:18:05
I installed this game, then the patch right after, and haven't had any problems whatsoever.

Great framerate, very consistent, no crashing, no bugs that I've seen at all. Very good job.

Sean
27-06-2002, 14:56:21
I just discovered that the patch also patched the patching software. I mean, come on, that is just ridiculous.

MDA
27-06-2002, 14:59:58
You'd think it was Daggerfall the way they're complaining about it on the Bioware forums.

I was all ready to buy this game, now I'm waiting to see if they can patch it (unless it goes on sale this weekend, which it will, of course).:)

Shining1
28-06-2002, 05:33:58
It's already been patched once...

DS, are you playing? How is it? Wanna do a quick review?

Darkstar
28-06-2002, 06:19:10
I hadn't started it yet...
I've been busy with other things. Like making this notebook my primary box (meaning, installing Office on it, moving over my mail and stuff to it, etc etc etc).

I was thinking maybe this weekend... With all this talk of being doomed, I wasn't in a hurry to find out if it was true. ;)

DaShi
28-06-2002, 12:19:02
Originally posted by MDA
You'd think it was Daggerfall the way they're complaining about it on the Bioware forums.

I was all ready to buy this game, now I'm waiting to see if they can patch it (unless it goes on sale this weekend, which it will, of course).:)

I still have faith in Bioware, but we'll see when I get the game next week.

I think it is common for game forums to get absolutely trashed, if the game is released buggy. For one, no one likes a buggy game (well, a lot of people don't). Also, it creates a bad first impression from the game. What could have been a thoroughly enjoyable game has been soured by an early or buggy release. The SMAC forums suffered because of the bugs in the game during its release. That was nothing compared to the onslaught that BlackandWhite got shortly after its release. CivIII, need I say more? So this could be bad tidings for NWN. However, the difference is that Bioware is making a much greater effort at trying to correct the problems as soon as possible than Firaxis or Lionhead did. I think Bioware realizes that it has a lot riding on this game and its success is crucial for the future of its company.

Anyway, I just hope that I will be one of those who gets it to work with little trouble. :bounce:

Mightytree
28-06-2002, 17:14:41
Bought it today. I've been playing it for about 2 hours now and so far it seems stable, no crashes.

MDA
28-06-2002, 18:46:37
Darkstar's rig is the true test of stability :D, but I'm somewhat reassured by people that have posted specs far below mine that have had no problems. Particularly those who play in groups and posted ALL their specs. Just waiting on the Sunday paper...

Mightytree
28-06-2002, 18:48:41
Argh, just had my first crash ... :(

MDA
28-06-2002, 19:07:51
:cry: *covers eyes and makes nah-nah-nah noises*


Well, a crash every 3-4 hours wouldn't be too bad - how is the framerate?

Herman
28-06-2002, 19:18:26
Make sure you update to 1.19

Mightytree
28-06-2002, 19:21:54
The crash wasn't in the actual game. I was at the MP chat and game selection screen ... and it just crashed again there.

I wonder how long buyers of a non-English version have to wait for the latest patch. I knew it ... I should have got the US one from somwhere. The best thing is that if you haven't got the latest patch you are not allowed to join 95% of the servers. Gotta love it. :cry: :bash: :bash:

The framerate is excellent so far. I have a P3 933 MHz and have NWN running at 1024x768.

Mightytree
28-06-2002, 19:22:55
Originally posted by Herman
Make sure you update to 1.19

If there was a patch available for a non-English version I would. :mad:

MDA
28-06-2002, 19:28:36
Console yourself with the fact that Germany gets a whack at Brazil for the cup.

DaShi
29-06-2002, 04:04:21
Originally posted by Mightytree


If there was a patch available for a non-English version I would. :mad:

Aren't you in Tennessee, you hillbilly?

Darkstar
29-06-2002, 08:21:40
No problems for me so far. Very gorgeous game... but I'm not impressed currently with the make your own modules stuff so far. It's a bit frustrating for basic things, considering this is the year 2002 and not 1977. But then, Atari's name is all over this, and that was Atari's heyday.

I got a big kick out of how that game tells you that you will need the CD key from inside your manual to install the game, but after that, you will never ever ever need it again. Noone will ever ask for it again. Especially not Bioware... went to the Bioware NWN site, and to get into the community, the web tells me: Give us your CD Key. ROTFLMAO!

My girlfriend had really been looking forward to seeing this game. After seeing it for a couple of hours, she seems to have lost her interest in it. That's... unusual. But then, as I said, the game is a bit primitive in module making, and I think she was looking forward to setting up a few adventures...

Mightytree
29-06-2002, 08:53:57
Originally posted by DaShi


Aren't you in Tennessee, you hillbilly?

Only in theory.

Mightytree
29-06-2002, 09:11:39
Originally posted by Darkstar
I got a big kick out of how that game tells you that you will need the CD key from inside your manual to install the game, but after that, you will never ever ever need it again. Noone will ever ask for it again. Especially not Bioware... went to the Bioware NWN site, and to get into the community, the web tells me: Give us your CD Key. ROTFLMAO!

You can create an account from inside the game. I had done that before I went to the community site and it didn't ask me for my CD-Key.

Darkstar
29-06-2002, 09:40:30
I did read that, after I had finally managed to get into the site. Must have clicked something different from you.

Mightytree
01-07-2002, 09:49:37
Did I already mention that NWN rulezzzzzzzz?

Awesome game, and I haven't even played multiplayer yet.

Nav
01-07-2002, 11:31:36
So do we have a volunteer to do a review? :D

Funkodrom
01-07-2002, 11:48:36
Shiny should do it. He's the only one who explained what this multiplayer thing was meant to be properly so that a RPG newbie understood it.

Mightytree
01-07-2002, 13:39:25
Yes, Shiny should do it. :D

Nav
01-07-2002, 18:28:23
I think shiny might be busy working on something else for the site... :D go on Markus! (unless MDA wants to do it, I seem to recall him mentioning this game...)

MDA
01-07-2002, 20:28:51
I'm willing to do a single player campaign review, but I've got a dialup connection and don't expect to be doing much MP.

Markus may be able to provide a more TIMELY review, as well, since I keep putting things like this off for real world concerns. My wife and I played about eight straight hours of SP after buying this on Sunday - two crashes, but we love the game.

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding how the NPCs and myself can talk without mouths :)

MDA
01-07-2002, 20:37:54
I keep putting things like this off for real world concerns.

played about eight straight hours of SP after buying this on Sunday

I need to work on my priorities :)

Mightytree
01-07-2002, 23:39:53
I won't have much time in the next few weeks, it's exam season again. And I can't do an MP review anyway (for now) since there are no patches for the international versions out yet and I don't know when they're coming either. IIRC it took Firaxis 2 months to do the international ones for SMAC. I will buy the US version at some point because of that but it really doesn't make much sense to do that now with a couple of exams ahead of me. I'm also going to move when I've got some time after my first two exams, so that'll take a while too. I don't think I can provide a more timely review.

Mightytree
01-07-2002, 23:42:18
If you're patient I suppose I could get something done some time in August ... but I won't even have much time then.

Shining1
02-07-2002, 06:14:54
I'll do a short intro review in the next couple of days... but I've only played SP so far. It looks extremely promising though - however I somewhat disagree with DS 'gorgeous' comment. The graphics aren't badly dated like the Diablo2 ones were when that game came out, but neither are they anything like Dungeon Siege.

Of course, given that the game system and storyline are intergalatic spacial units ahead of Dungeon Siege, that's not such a worry.

Nav: Mea Culpa Magna:( Morrowind, the World Cup, and NWN have totally messed up my sleeping schedule, so I'm not getting any non-mission critical work done. I'll see what I can do tomorrow if I get to bed before 1AM tonight.

Nav
02-07-2002, 19:41:12
Rest is for the wicked ;)

Shining1
03-07-2002, 00:53:49
No, rest for the wicked:).

I got a big kick out of how that game tells you that you will need the CD key from inside your manual to install the game, but after that, you will never ever ever need it again. Noone will ever ask for it again. Especially not Bioware... went to the Bioware NWN site, and to get into the community, the web tells me: Give us your CD Key.

Heh. Entirely because you said this I looked at what they said on the installer, and it specifically mentions that you will need to input your CD key to access the community after you have installed the game:p.

Darkstar
03-07-2002, 07:04:11
Well, at least that would be CONSISTANT. :D I saw the message and was thinking 'Ah, learned that lesson from other games, have they?'. And laughing when I hit the community site... :D

King_Ghidra
03-07-2002, 08:49:51
So are you guys enjoying this? I bought it on monday and am having a good time so far with the single player.

I'm fairly disappointed about the decision to allow only one henchman. What the fuck is wth that? AD&D is a party game, and whether i'm playing online or not i want to assemble a party goddammit!

I'm playing a sorceror btw. Love my pixie familiar :)

Funkodrom
03-07-2002, 08:56:05
That's so gay.

Mightytree
03-07-2002, 10:46:29
Not gay at all.

Funkodrom
03-07-2002, 10:54:10
A pixie familiar isn't gay? I can't think of many things more gay than that.

Shining1
03-07-2002, 12:16:13
Yeah, short of a fairy:).

King: I'm really liking the SP as well. So much that I haven't gotten around to the supposed 'important stuff' like the online play or the dungeon creator.

King_Ghidra
03-07-2002, 12:18:01
nah it's not gay, she's cute - when i raise some levels i'm gonna cast a spell to make her bigger and then fuck her

Funkodrom
03-07-2002, 12:30:39
Even without the pixie sorcerers are pretty gay to start with, all poncey make up and dresses.

re: The party thing. From what Shiny told me the other day if you are playing MP aren't the other people you are playing with making up the party? You don't run a party, you are an individual member of it.

Sean
03-07-2002, 12:32:36
Robes are great in Morrowind, you can wear them over your armour.

Funkodrom
03-07-2002, 12:33:44
Dresses you mean?

King_Ghidra
03-07-2002, 12:34:34
Originally posted by Funkodrom
re: The party thing. From what Shiny told me the other day if you are playing MP aren't the other people you are playing with making up the party? You don't run a party, you are an individual member of it.

yeah but i want to have a party in single player :(

NWN really is intended for the online multiplayer though, i understand that

Funkodrom
03-07-2002, 12:36:15
I'm tempted to get it for the MP aspect if there are going to be a lot of people playing it. Sounds a lot more like my kind of thing than the SP RPGs I've played but no-one seems to have really tried it yet.

King_Ghidra
03-07-2002, 12:46:14
I'm hoping to get ADSL in the next few weeks and i will definitely play NWN online.

Really though i think i will probably get into something with a persistent onlne world like Ultima online.

Funkodrom
03-07-2002, 13:17:38
Yeah. Problem with NWN is going to be not finding convenient people to play with.

MDA
03-07-2002, 15:05:36
That's the reason I tend to not play online games - too hard to set up games with friends - much easier to meet at a bar and drink for some reason. All my old out-of-town friends are as busy as I am and its hell trying to find a good time when we're all awake (time zones) and free to play.

I like having only one character for SP games. The henchman thing in NWN is pretty good, since you don't have complete control of your henchman's actions.

Who are you using as your henchman? - I'm a ranger/thief and using the cleric as a partner. She's fairly sturdy in combat and has some decent healing and a nifty looking attack (sunbeam?)spell, doesn't use enough party enhancement magic to suit me, thoughl - I like it better when she goes into power attack mode, then I can sneak attack. Thieves don't really shine without a party to divert an enemy's attention. I'll probably pump up my open lock skill and leave off thief levels at five - then finish the rest of the game leveling only in ranger. I'm currently at four levels of each.

Thieves get ridiculous numbers of skill points. Very useful.

Pathfinding occasionally goes right down the crapper, but most of the time is OK. The cleric sometimes gets stuck in doorways, is all.

The Diablo-esque recall stone is nice - but respawn I could do without. I prefer reloading to losing experience and gold. It may have more utility in MP games.

I want to slice out the Tyr Paladin's vocal cords. She's annoying, reuses the same phrase when you complete quests. Surely they could afford another hour with the voice actor to make her a little less like MegaHAL? She's a primary character in the story!

Ah, fun game overall. I like the feat/skill systems.

Funkodrom
03-07-2002, 15:14:15
I think this is the main reason I'm never going to get into CRPGs, I very, very rarely play 1 player games and it's too hard to organise MP games.

Mightytree
03-07-2002, 17:58:17
Monks are amazing. It's almost too easy, especially if you have a second monk as your henchman. :D

MDA
03-07-2002, 18:52:55
My wife outvoted me on the monk idea. She wanted to wear and wield cool stuff. Robes and exotic weapons like throwing stars aren't enough?

I was a little surprised to be finding some of the class-specific stuff actually available in the SP campaign. BG didn't do as good a job as NWN seems to with giving goodies out for different classes.

Shining1
04-07-2002, 07:29:43
Who needs robes? The whole point of a monk is to play naked:).

Funkodrom
04-07-2002, 08:24:45
The character or you?

Mightytree
04-07-2002, 09:20:24
:nervous:

King_Ghidra
04-07-2002, 09:48:32
Originally posted by MDA
Who are you using as your henchman? - I'm a ranger/thief and using the cleric as a partner. She's fairly sturdy in combat and has some decent healing and a nifty looking attack (sunbeam?)spell, doesn't use enough party enhancement magic to suit me, thoughl - I like it better when she goes into power attack mode, then I can sneak attack. Thieves don't really shine without a party to divert an enemy's attention. I'll probably pump up my open lock skill and leave off thief levels at five - then finish the rest of the game leveling only in ranger. I'm currently at four levels of each.

my sorceror is at level 6 now - just picked up fireball :shoot: :o

my pixie familiar takes care of disarming traps and other thieving stuff for me, so...

i use the half-orc barbarian as my henchman - He is a nasty bastard and he matches my good alignment too. Only problem, he runs around attacking stuff a bit too eagerly.

Just picked up the cockatrice feather and am about to finish the prison stuff in the peninsula area.

Still enjoying myself immensely (especially since i picked up fireball :))

MDA
04-07-2002, 13:16:44
4/4 ranger/rogue, finished Waterdhavian creatures quests and have moved on to Ch1 finale. The cleric has been using a nifty searing light (I think, no spell ID for me) spell to cook down the enemy. Her undead turning makes undead fun, I get to chase them around the room whacking on them and they don't fight back. :)

Is playing a spellcaster tough in SP? Maybe with a familiar AND a henchman it splits things enough you can actually get a spell off. A enemy mage with a couple of grunts doesn't stand a chance against me and one henchman. Well, maybe a chance. Those ice storms are a bitch if they get them off!

King_Ghidra
04-07-2002, 15:27:08
Yeah the familiar is a big help - the baddies run around after her quite a lot. But you're right, if it wasn't for the henchman and the familiar i would find it very difficult to get my spells off in time.

The fireball has made me much more potent, but i figure, as soon as i get stoneskin and learn haste i will start to resemble a real threat.

The mages have always been like that in d&d. crap at low level, nuclear weapons at high level.

I'm surprised at how quickly i'm levelling up actually. I played multi-classed characters in Baldurs gate and i think it was a mistake.

Funkodrom
04-07-2002, 15:28:11
Multi-classed characters in D&D always seem to end up being able to do a lot of things really craply.

King_Ghidra
04-07-2002, 15:46:52
uncannily mirroring my own life

Funkodrom
04-07-2002, 15:47:27
Except for being able to do a lot of things.

MDA
04-07-2002, 17:09:49
The mages have always been like that in d&d. crap at low level, nuclear weapons at high level.


One of the reasons I usually played a cleric - most of the time I could wait till combat was finished before casting my spells. Cavaliers and gnome illusionist/thieves could be fun, too. Cavaliers just turned out to be an overpowered paladin (without the spells), though.

Mightytree
04-07-2002, 18:10:44
My monk is level 13 and I'm close to the end of chapter 2 (played 13 hours straight yesterday :clueless: ). He has around 17 or 18 in blocking, so he hardly ever gets hit, has good elemental and magic resistance, gets multiple attacks per round and deals good damage. And all that without a weapon or heavy armor. I also put a couple of points in disarm trap and lockpicking ... there are few things he can't open/disarm. :coolgrin:

I tried multiple henchmen, but I clearly found the monk one to be the best. If I was a magic user and needed a tank, I'd go for the monk instead of the Half-Orc barbarian. I tried both and the monk killed faster and got hit less.

BTW, does anybody here not play this on normal difficulty?

Shining1
05-07-2002, 06:19:49
I've found a couple of levels of Rogue is a very good way to counter Mage spells. Get the Evasion skill and pump up your reflex save and those 'save for half damage' spells just slide off your back like water.

I finished act I with an 'anti-Paladin' (Paladin/Rogue/Fighter) combo and the bardess henchie, shes appalling if she gets attacked by anything that can fight but her bow and bardsong make her a good offsider. However I pretty much royally screwed up everything quest wise in that act so I'm going to do it again. (missed the dwarven forge in the Shining Knight armoury and didn't finish my retainer quest...:()

Things I've found so far:
* Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers definitely benefit from having 1-2 levels of fighter after level 4. The Fighters gets two of his bonus feats in the first two levels, so you can the Weapon Specialisation feat and another combat one (Improved Knockdown, say). Weapon spec gives you +2 to every single attack you ever make in the game which really adds up over 100 hours of playing:).

* Likewise, getting 2-3 levels of Rogue will really help your character out. 3 Rogue levels means you can do your own find/disarm traps (or open locks, or whatever), use pretty much any magic item under 2000gold, and should you end up in the situation where you are attacking something that is in combat with something else, your attack automatically turns into a sneak attack doing 2d6 (at level 3) more damage per hit. Also, you get Evasion, which with high Dex, Lightning Reflexes and perhaps a couple of magic items

This does mean compromising your primary class quite a bit (5 levels!) so you'll have weaker Favoured Enemy/Berserk+Damage reduction/Paladin+Ranger spells. but in general this isn't such a disaster since you are stronger all round (ideally 2d6+2 damage per hit:D).

Mightytree
05-07-2002, 11:42:27
I'm level 15 now and I still haven't finished chapter two. At this rate I'll be level 20, which I read is the max, in late chapter three. Great ... I'll still have half the game before me, but no more leveling up. :(

They need to raise the max level or just don't give as much exp as they're giving now.

King_Ghidra
05-07-2002, 13:29:43
can't you take some levels in other classes?

still i do seem to be levelling up far more quickly than in baldur's gate

Mightytree
05-07-2002, 14:10:56
AFAIK you can't. For example, a level 12/8 fighter/mage is considered level 20 too. So there's only a total of 20 level ups.

Mightytree
05-07-2002, 14:19:50
Make that 19 level ups ... :clueless:

Funkodrom
05-07-2002, 14:21:33
That makes sense... a 20/20 fighter mage would be too powerful compared to a single class character.

MDA
05-07-2002, 14:27:28
I'm taking my ranger/rogue to level 5 - extra d6 on sneak attacks and a +1 on reflex.

The skill bonuses rogues get are great. 8 +INT bonus/level Once I started taking rogue levels, I just couldn't stop - 4/5 ranger rogue, finished first quest in Ch.2

I finished Ch. 2 without returning a quest item to an owner, and without going to the fights in that tavern basement... even though I bought a pass.

I found a body with 30 gold on it in an occupied prison cell. :hmm:
sloppy housekeeping.

Shining1
05-07-2002, 15:32:35
Mike: The dual classing rules are similar enough - all classes have the same experience requirement, and when you level up, you get a choice of what class you want to level up in. There are three further restrictions:
* You can only have 3 classes in total
* To level up in a class, you have to meet the alignment requirements for it (No Paladin Barbarians, for instance).
* If you have 2 non-favoured classes, and one is two or more levels greater than the other, you incur a 20% experience penalty. Favoured classes are determined by race (example Dwarves ignore levels in the Fighter class).

I *love* this system. There's very little complexity at all, and if you suddenly find that you have a very compelling need to pick up a low level unique ability from another class, it's very easy to do.

Shining1
05-07-2002, 15:33:14
MDA: Is that the Nike slogan in full?:D

Sean
05-07-2002, 15:36:03
That levelling system sounds so confusing compared to the Elder Scrolls system of practice makes perfect :clueless:.

Funkodrom
05-07-2002, 15:47:01
I've never really seen the appeal of dual class characters. In D&D just looking after one class is distracting enough.

Sean
05-07-2002, 15:48:58
In Morrowind it doesn’t make much difference. You practice a skill, and so you get better at it.

Funkodrom
05-07-2002, 15:51:17
That seems like a much better system. I've never really liked the D&D character system... actually I've played many much better RPG systems. D&D is just... there.

Funkodrom
05-07-2002, 15:55:11
MERP, that was a great system.

Mightytree
05-07-2002, 16:00:28
The Morrowind system has one big problem. It takes the same or even less time to get from e.g. 80 to 81 as it takes from 3 to 4. That's just not realistic. Leveling up should become harder at higher levels, not easier.

Funkodrom
05-07-2002, 16:02:56
You say that but why? Even in D&D it doesn't really because although the experience you need for the next level goes up so does the experience you gain by being able to kill bigger and better monsters and being able to do better things.

I prefer the systems that don't have levels at all where you just improve your skills and attributes and gain more abilities as you are going along. Who cares if you are level 10 or 20, all you really want to know is whether or not you'll hit what you're aiming at or how likely you are to pick that lock.

Sean
05-07-2002, 16:08:42
Originally posted by Mightytree
The Morrowind system has one big problem. It takes the same or even less time to get from e.g. 80 to 81 as it takes from 3 to 4. That's just not realistic. Leveling up should become harder at higher levels, not easier.
That is a problem, but, from http://home.austin.rr.com/shakti/morrowind/levelingcurve.htm
I will say that both Daggerfall and Morrowind are not typical D&D style RPGs in terms of Leveling up always being a good idea. In Daggerfall (and Morrowind to a certain point) monsters level up with you and get stronger. Using running to level up dosen't make your character any more able to cope with enemies (unless your character is roleplaying to run away from every fight), and leveling up too quickly can lead you to fall behind tougher monsters.

Mightytree
05-07-2002, 16:09:50
I didn't say the D&D system was perfect. I'm leveling way too quickly in NWN for my taste. All I'm saying is that it's harder to improve skills that are already good. And that's how it should be in Morrowind and NWN too, unfortunately it isn't. But in Morrowind leveling actually get easier when you're high level, at least in NWN the rate stays the same.

Funkodrom
05-07-2002, 16:10:29
Well that's just silly, the same monsters shouldn't get tougher as you do, they should stay the same and you should fight tougher monsters and dispatch weaker monsters without even thinking about it.

Funkodrom
05-07-2002, 16:11:49
Originally posted by Mightytree
I didn't say the D&D system was perfect. I'm leveling way too quickly in NWN for my taste. All I'm saying is that it's harder to improve skills that are already good. And that's how it should be in Morrowind and NWN too, unfortunately it isn't. But in Morrowind leveling actually get easier when you're high level, at least in NWN the rate stays the same.

Yeah, I agree with that. Normally non-level based systems make consecutive improvements to the same skills etc. harder each time in level based systems where you tend to get the same bonuses every time you level up.

Sean
05-07-2002, 16:12:02
Originally posted by Mightytree
But in Morrowind leveling actually get easier when you're high level, at least in NWN the rate stays the same.
This is only true if you focus on the same skills all the way through.

Shining1
06-07-2002, 08:00:26
But in Dungeon Siege and Morrowind, you more or less HAVE to focus on using the same skills as you progress through. Training up a 5 point miscellanious skill takes 50% more effort than training a primary skill, and there's virtually no way to do it other than to pay for it.

For instance, when I got the Dweemer short blade with paralysis, I thought, cool! Until I tried to use it on a fairly lowly opponent and managed to almost get my big tough Orc killed because he spent 2 minute stabbing away at a beastie without hitting it once.

Same for Dungeon Siege. If you want to develop a skill that you didn't start developing at the start of the game, you have to more or less go back to the start - it's almost impossible to improve it by using against the tougher opponents you meet as you advance.

The D&D system is not very realistic at all, but at least if you decide at level 10 that you want another level of say Wizard, you can do it there and then without having to go back to killing Zombies with Magic Missile in chapter 1. So you get the flexibility to take your character in new directions without having to stop and spend a dozen extra hours or 10000 gold getting trained in new basic skills.

Sean
06-07-2002, 10:07:26
I actually had no trouble in training up Log Blade once I got the Magebane. I used the trainers a couple of times, and used the claymore when I had already paralysed my opponents. I think started using it, once it was around 15 or so, for killing Cliff Racers, and now Long Blade is almost equal to Short Blade. Armourer and Light/Medium/Heavy Armour are similarly easy to learn whil staying useful. The spelllcasting ones are also easy, and the only ones that might not be are Sneak and Enchant, but they aren’t supposed to be easy to get really good at.

Mightytree
06-07-2002, 22:34:47
I found a great site with info on the NWN character system.

ShadeRaven's Neverwinter Nights Guides (http://home.attbi.com/~bretwd/SR_NWN_Home.htm)

*End Is Forever*
07-07-2002, 23:01:10
*Shrugs and proclaims his ignorance...

Funkodrom
08-07-2002, 08:49:06
Originally posted by Shining1
The D&D system is not very realistic at all, but at least if you decide at level 10 that you want another level of say Wizard, you can do it there and then without having to go back to killing Zombies with Magic Missile in chapter 1. So you get the flexibility to take your character in new directions without having to stop and spend a dozen extra hours or 10000 gold getting trained in new basic skills.

Why should a fighter, say, who's been fighting through the entire game suddenly be able to get a level in wizard?

I was talking to King_Ghidra about this on saturday night and we were thinking about all the different experience systems we've played in tabletop RPGs. I haven't played any other CRPGs so I don't know if they have the same variety of experience systems. The best one I played was a modified version of the Middle Earth Roleplaying system where the GM recorded our experience as normal but also tracked what skills we'd used. We could spend our experience in anyway we wanted but only on skills we'd used. He'd also give us experience bonuses specifically for individual skills if we used it to achieve an outstanding success. Usually something that he hadn't thought of that made the adventure a lot easier for us or caused him to quickly change his storyline to get us back on track. I guess one problem with the CRPG is that you don't have that kind of flexibility for GM rule interperetation. That kind of system which is a combination of the two combines some realism with some flexibility.

MDA
08-07-2002, 16:11:54
The problem I have with most "realistic" role-playing systems is that they're complicated. MERP was that way for me, but I loved it. Raising a level in that game was a HUGE deal. I never made it past level 2 :) Stupid barrow wights.

Played around with the NWN tools this morning for about half an hour - basics are surprisingly easy to use, but I haven't messed with scripts.

Shining: That's the www.villainsupply.com version :)

There are some glaring typos in the conversations - rains/reigns, stuff like that, spellcheckers would miss them. Homonyms? Qaj would have a coronary.

DaShi
08-07-2002, 19:20:41
The toolset is quite good. I played through the tutorial that you can download from the website. It helps you get the basics down pat. Shows you the shortcuts to avoid messy scripting for common tasks as well.

Henchmen are a little troublesome. I think that you should be able to possess henchmen like familiars, just to get better game play from them. I'd like to apply this to the campaign I hope to make as well as allow more henchmen, but place a party limit instead. Let's say the party limit is four. You playing alone can have up to 3 henchmen. Bring in a friend and you can have 1-2 henchmen, depending on whether your friend takes one or not. Bring in another friend and only one person can hire a henchmen. That way, multiplayer or not, you can always have a four person party.

Shining1
09-07-2002, 01:08:51
Mike:

Why should a fighter, say, who's been fighting through the entire game suddenly be able to get a level in wizard?

BECAUSE HE WANTS TO.

Thats my whole point. I did say it wasn't realistic. But it's way more fun being able to do what YOU want to the character instead of having the game dictate it to you.

Fine if you only want to play a single class, but the 3rd edition rules give some very interesting options for mixing in the powers of a second and third class with your primary one. Why should the game only cater for you with your single class tastes and not those who ultimately, want to play a character that is equally as realisitic (in this case a weaker fighter with some interesting magic skills).

The advantage of the rules in NWN for this is that you don't have to go back to 'killing cliffracers' to level up basic skills, you can do that while killing dragons. Which is a great deal more useful in a multiplayer game because you don't need time out from the party to do this (Morrowind, fair enough, if you want to watch BBC news while letting sandcrabs level up your blocking skill, fair enough:D). But in Dungeon Siege you almost immediately find that if you try to swap skills while playing in a team, you become a liability for two reasons:
* You aren't doing any damage (likely 2-3 points per hit with your low level skill as opposed to 30-40 points from a character with a skill level that matchs that level of the game).
* You are lagging behind in overall levels because you are doing so little damage and you are advancing more slowly.

So in short I definitely prefer the 3rd edition/Diablo2 style level up rules to the Dungeon Siege ones.


Dashi: Rachel and I are doing that right now, except that we have a 5 'person' party with her familiar (a huge black panther called kitty:D).

Given the A.Idiot of the average henchman, though, I'm pretty sure I would find 3 henchmen often turning into more of a liability than not.

BTW, anyone know where on earth IcewinddaleII has gotten to?

Ellipsis
09-07-2002, 02:15:05
Originally posted by Shining1
BTW, anyone know where on earth IcewinddaleII has gotten to?

Implementing 3rd Edition rules in the aging Infinity Engine took longer than expected, so they couldn't make the May 28 release date. Plus the release of NWN and Warcraft III means that the publisher's probably going to wait a bit more (although IWD I was up against Diablo 2 and did well). I think the game is just about done on the development side at least.

Shining1
09-07-2002, 05:02:57
Ta:). It still sounded pretty cool, and being able to run your own party is unique against NWNs and Morrowind et al.

(I don't count the appalling crap party system in Dungeon Siege, of course).

Funkodrom
09-07-2002, 09:22:24
Originally posted by Shining1
Mike:



BECAUSE HE WANTS TO.



I still have a hard time believing anyone would want to be a wizard but if you want to be a wizard go and do wizardy things. Actually that brings to light another slight problem I have with the D&D rules, the high level characters are so much more powerful than low level characters that doing low level wizardy stuff is totally pointless if you are a high level. It's even more emphasised on the computer where something that would take months of work to improve on in a tabletop RPG you can do in a few hours on the computer. It's so quick and easy to advance that you don't really need to think about it and you can always just start again with a different character or load an old save and do something different.

I haven't played any other CRPG system though so I can't argue that they don't suck more. :D

Sean
09-07-2002, 11:08:01
Originally posted by Shining1
The advantage of the rules in NWN for this is that you don't have to go back to 'killing cliffracers' to level up basic skills, you can do that while killing dragons. Which is a great deal more useful in a multiplayer game because you don't need time out from the party to do this (Morrowind, fair enough, if you want to watch BBC news while letting sandcrabs level up your blocking skill, fair enough:D).
Ahem. First off, you face Cliffracers pretty much every time you go anywhere on foot. It’s not ‘going back’ to them, because they are always there.

Second, you can level up while killing tough enemies, you just take a bit more of a beating than usual.

Third, I didn’t need to let a mudcrab increase my block skill; it’s easy enough anyway with a one-handed weapon. If you don’t want to use block, then use a two-handed weapon.

DaShi
09-07-2002, 13:14:37
My Rogue just made a career change to monk. Oh, the extra skill points! The transition was quite smooth actually. My unarmed attack got the same attack values and such as my short sword used to give me. Plus, I got to keep my crossbow prof., and I got a whole bunch of new feats for free. The only thing is that I would like to bring up my lock picking skill a bit more, but I've got so many skill points left over that I can do it in later levels.

I've chosen the hottie asian chick as my henchman. Her bard song makes my character kick ass! The problem is keeping her out of the battle. Since my character has such high stealth, I can leave her somewhere, sneak around and pick off the stragglers, then call her for the big battles. She doesn't heal me on command though, but has heal me a few times in battle on her own.

Koshko
09-07-2002, 21:40:13
I haven't bought any games in quite awhile. I've been reading the character class site, and it's very interesting the flexiblity. I think that this might be the game I'll get. One question: How well does it run with 128 Mb RAM?

Shining1
10-07-2002, 07:48:24
Actually that brings to light another slight problem I have with the D&D rules, the high level characters are so much more powerful than low level characters that doing low level wizardy stuff is totally pointless if you are a high level.

Really? So there's no point in getting Protection from Evil, which gives you +2AC, immunity to mind spells, and +2 saving throws vs. Evil characters, along with Identify (+25 to Lore), Charm Person (+50% reputation increase), Light (magical light, frees up a hand) and Resistance (+1 all saving throws), at the cost of a single fighter level (+1 attack and +6 Hps compared to Wizard).

Likewise, this works in so many ways with so many other characters as well. Get two levels of Rogue and you get a lot of extra skill points, as well as some different class skills like Search, and the Rogue feats Sneak Attack (+1d6 damage when fighting as an offsider) and Evasion (ignore ALL damage when making your Reflex save instead of only half).

In short, there are GREAT many uses for dual classing, and high level characters can still get huge benefits from taking on some lower level skills. Just like in Morrowind, where nearly all skills are useful in some way or another.


Koshko: You'd be pushing it, depending on the rest of your computer stats. Memory is pretty cheap though - can you upgrade that at the same time, perhaps?

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 08:43:24
Well if it's that good stop moaning about having to do some donkey work to get it. :D

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 08:44:35
ps. I've never even looked at the wizard classes so I have no idea if those bonuses are right or not. They count for nothing if you have to take your armour off and wear a dress.

Shining1
10-07-2002, 10:18:53
That stuff is non-combat and/or lasts for hours, so you can cast it and then put your armour back on. Or get a level of Cleric, comes to the same thing as far as ProtEvil and resistance goes, and you get other stuff.

Given the choice between donkey work and no donkey work, I'll take the latter system, thanks:).

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 10:20:22
It's gay though. Take all your armour off, cast a spell (if you've memorised the right ones which you probably haven't 'cause you've forgotten about the tedium of managing your spells), put armour back on then go and do whatever it is you need to do. I'd rather just take the extra damage.

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 10:24:21
It'd be great if someone else is the wizard. That I see as the potential benefit of NWN.

Shining1
10-07-2002, 10:42:46
All down to your own playing style. Certainly, you can't get Evasion except by being a Rogue (or a Monk), so that's down to each character to take care of by themselves. If you've got such potentially useful options available, it can pay to take advantage of them.

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 10:55:55
I don't like that mercenary style of character development, if you want to improve your character for the sake of making them a more interesting and fun character that's fine but coldhearted calculations based on what bonuses different options give you just seems too passionless. If you want to be a fighter wizard because you have a great image of what kind of character that would be and why it'd be cool then I back that wholeheartedly, if it's just a "what'll give me the best bonuses" calculation then what's the point? If I wanted to do cost benefit analysis or statistics I'd do maths.

Shining1
10-07-2002, 12:11:26
Either way, you get interesting options from the dual classing. Mine is very much a fighter thief since we don't have any other trap or lock breakers in the party.

As a pure killing machine, it weakens me significantly since I lose +2 attack, 20hps and the choice of two combat feats. But it makes the character much more party friendly, since he fighter well as an offsider and has far more skills than a normal fighter.

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 12:29:16
But how does it affect your perception of the character?

Shining1
10-07-2002, 12:39:44
Cunning dungeoneer instead of Gosu Kensai:D

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 12:41:06
I have no idea what/who Gosu Kensai is but that's fair enough I guess.

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 12:45:25
Google doesn't know either.

Shining1
10-07-2002, 12:45:46
I think over Korean/Japanese it eventually translates to something like L33T Swordmaster:).

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 12:49:43
I find it hard to express how much I hate that ridiculous hacksaw language. :bash:

MDA
10-07-2002, 13:26:59
I don't speak 1337, either.

What Funkodrom is saying is that multiclassing sounds too much like powergaming for his taste, I think.

I enjoy roleplaying and powergaming at different times. Its strange to see an RPG system make allowances for powergamers, but as Shiny said, he's giving up fighter HP and feats to get those rogue skills, so its not entirely without drawbacks.

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 13:32:53
Is that what powergaming is? Wondered that.

Shining1
10-07-2002, 13:42:50
I definitely wouldn't call the multiclassing in NWN powergaming. Everytime you do something different here there are plus and minuses to it. Getting Evasion, for instance, requires you get two levels of Rogue or one level of Monk. In either case, that will leave a fighter with 1 point less in overall attack than he would have had, or a mage with 1 or two fewer ninth level spells.

It seems that the rules are definitely set so that you can have a generalist or a specialist. In nearly all cases, missing out on level 19 and 20 cost you a lot.

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 13:49:14
I thought you went to bed! :D

MDA
10-07-2002, 15:40:46
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Is that what powergaming is? Wondered that.

That's the last time I try to explain what one of my AE's was thinking.

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 15:43:01
Urgh. I don't know whether I know what powergaming is or not now. :confused:

King_Ghidra
10-07-2002, 16:05:41
Originally posted by Funkodrom
I find it hard to express how much I hate that ridiculous hacksaw language. :bash:

that's because u suc|< n00b! ph34r my 1337 r4!16un s|<!11z!1111!!!!11!!!

Funkodrom
10-07-2002, 16:06:33
What I hear:

"that's because I'm a twat"

Koshko
10-07-2002, 20:46:35
Originally posted by Shining1


Koshko: You'd be pushing it, depending on the rest of your computer stats. Memory is pretty cheap though - can you upgrade that at the same time, perhaps?


1 gig Dell procressor and ample storage space
I know I'm overdue for the RAM, but I haven't bought any games since SMACx and M&M8. :o I've been playing free online stuff which is more affected by your connection speed then RAM.

Shining1
11-07-2002, 07:25:06
|<1n9: j00 c4/\/\p1ng 11@m@! L33+ K1@|\| v111 0\/\/n j00!

Koshko: Definitely get the memory, then (256 should do). What's your 3D card, btw? That will have the most affect on how NWN plays.

Funkodrom
11-07-2002, 08:26:51
Why is he a Llama?

Shining1
11-07-2002, 14:08:40
Llama = lamer = camper.

Camping requires speed, accuracy and patience, which pisses off most people who play FPS games so much that being accused of camping is somewhat akin to being accused of eye-gouging in football.

Funkodrom
11-07-2002, 14:16:20
Yes. Thank you, I know that, I was making fun of the stupid language.

Shining1
11-07-2002, 14:20:03
j00 11@m@...

Sean
11-07-2002, 14:22:18
It’s not just for camping, it’s for any kind of immaturity or cheating as well.

Also, you make camping sound difficult. The only reason it is difficult is because most people reserve a special hatred for campers and go after them mericlessly.

Funkodrom
11-07-2002, 14:22:34
Can llamas even have religions?

Shining1
11-07-2002, 14:27:20
They can if they are power llamas:D.

Shining1
11-07-2002, 14:30:06
Sean: Hence I called him a camping llama:).

MDA
11-07-2002, 16:10:40
Were you able to figure out llama from context, or did someone have to explain it to you too? :)

Funkodrom
11-07-2002, 16:11:21
I just read what the words look like.

MDA
11-07-2002, 16:11:45
its anti-semitic you know, you should be banned for using it :cute:

Funkodrom
11-07-2002, 16:11:55
And read it phonetically.

Shining1
12-07-2002, 04:57:15
What's anti-semetic?

Darkstar
12-07-2002, 05:49:12
power gaming in RPGs... that's existed from the start.

The multi-classing thing... it's D&D's way of not throwing out the whole thing and going full skill based.

I prefer skill based systems to the general level system myself. But even skill systems break down quickly. And as long as you are in a good group, it really doesn't matter if you are in a level system or skill system, you still have fun, and that's what is important.

Llama = camper? Why do I wonder if someone from Maxis was deathmatching too much?

Shining1
12-07-2002, 07:41:44
For all I know, they could have invented the term:).

MDA
12-07-2002, 15:13:15
if someone calls a joo a 11@m@ - that's anti-semitic :)

reading it isn't too tough usually, making the jump from llama to lamer (lucky I even know what lamer means) is where I got stuck.

Darkstar nailed it with the fun thing, I think. I used to powergame AD&D when I was younger, later I decided it was more fun to be a mid-level character with limited access to delayed blast fireballs, Monster Summoning MMII, and Gate spells.

Shining1
12-07-2002, 15:33:50
Anywhere you get rules you get powergamers. There are some tactics that will tend to dominate. CRPGs just make these so much easier to find.

Darkstar
13-07-2002, 09:51:28
CRPGS *emphasis* power gaming (also called Min/Maxing), as there is so little *role* playing involved. Even the best CRPGs tend to be all about the *roll* playing, and that brings out the Min/Maxer in everyone.

Funkodrom
13-07-2002, 10:23:57
I agree with Darkstar.

:nervous:

Darkstar
13-07-2002, 11:11:12
No you don't. Your head might explode if you were to agree with me, and you have to be in Ned and Rachel's wedding party! Can't have you dieing before that.

Shining1
15-07-2002, 07:44:21
Agreeing with Darkstar since 2002?:D

Funkodrom
15-07-2002, 08:38:52
I agreed with him about something in Counterpoint the same day as well. :D

MDA
15-07-2002, 14:20:50
Originally posted by Funkodrom
I agree with Darkstar.

:nervous:


I said that once. :(

I won't say it again, even if it's true. From now on, I'll just post it as a quote from Funkomikatron.

Shining1
16-07-2002, 01:25:09
Diablo2 tended towards powergaming, I haven't found the same thing at all though with single player CRPGs. In D2 you are kinda competiting to see who can get the biggest character, and it gets old fast if you aren't killing as many monsters as the rest of your group, because there's nothing else to do in it.

Likewise, anywhere you have open slather PKing, you will get the worst of the worst.

MattHiggs
19-07-2002, 11:45:23
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
I'm hoping to get ADSL in the next few weeks and i will definitely play NWN online.

Really though i think i will probably get into something with a persistent onlne world like Ultima online.

*cough* geek

DaShi
19-07-2002, 13:31:02
Originally posted by MattHiggs


*cough* geek

How ironic.

MattHiggs
19-07-2002, 14:21:40
It's about as ironic as that crappy song.

King_Ghidra
19-07-2002, 15:19:51
Missed the last couple of posts in this thread - I am not a geek you bastard :D

DaShi
19-07-2002, 16:15:03
Originally posted by MattHiggs
It's about as ironic as that crappy song.

Like rain on your wedding day.

The Shaker
19-07-2002, 18:23:35
I hate free rides, when i've already paid.
The bitches.

MDA
25-07-2002, 14:54:32
The NWN tooset rocks, I haven't done any programming since BASIC in the 7th grade and I'm even using scripts.

Without the Bioware scripting community and the script wizard, I'm fucked though. :)

King_Ghidra
25-07-2002, 15:45:32
Yeah. didn't take me long to get up and running with it. I could do with seeing the proper manual, but most of it is very intuitive.