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paiktis
22-06-2015, 13:16:15
Negotiations should be approached with a sense of mutual respect, a future-perceptive spirit of compromise and mutual give way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZSou-he-VI

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-06-2015, 13:51:05
And the option for a heart-felt fuck-off.

The Mad Monk
22-06-2015, 16:55:05
New Greek National Anthem?

paiktis
22-06-2015, 19:17:14
No, it has to be something gay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9dIWOYmtcQ

The Mad Monk
22-06-2015, 19:39:27
That was beautiful. I noticed Loreena McKennitt's name so I looked up the song; she is a favorite of mine:

Haris Alexiou sings To Tango Tis Nefelis, which translates in English as “Nefeli’s Tango”, a romantic mythological and lyrical interpretation of Loreena McKennitt’s instrumental song known as Tango To Evora.

How soothing this melody is! How probing is the perfectly suited voice of Alexiou when she, like the waves coming and going of the shores, sings about the nymph of clouds, Nefeli, and ”two little angels who were dreaming of Nefeli and wanted to feed her pomegranate and honey, so that she could not remember, so that she would forget what she wanted.”

From the very first pounding sounds of “Nefeli’s Tango”, you to sing along, to dance, to be in the arms of your beloved one, to close your eyes and let yourself be taken on the mythological journey when love, fantasies, seduction, and innocence are weaved so playfully. And when you know that at the end, despite of everything and because of everything, “the benevolent Zeus” saves Nefeli, “turns her into a cloud and disperses her so that they could not find her”.

Canadian musician, songwriter, and producer Loreena McKennitt, known for her instrumentals and her very refined soprano voice, published this tango on her 1991’s album “Visit”. It didn’t take long before Alexiou, moved by the passionate melody, found her own inspiration in it and painted it with the Greek touch.

Oerdin
23-06-2015, 01:19:39
Let them eat cake.

paiktis
23-06-2015, 08:59:36
Oh the irony
(She was beheaded. PH'd)

paiktis
23-06-2015, 09:29:03
Oh these songs are called entechno which means artful.

They are gay and mushy but divine when you miss the better half :D
If you're in the mood for some pussy crying as it is affectionately called they'll do the job but everyday stress kind of puts them out of your cognitive spectrum. You have to be in the mood to enjoy them. (I am :D)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LrGmEhEUMA

http://lyricstranslate.com/en/Kemal-Kemal.html

The Mad Monk
23-06-2015, 10:39:18
I think you might like this one, Loreena McKennitt's adaptation of Alfred Noyes' tragic poem The Highwayman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixi4jz0Gn4E

paiktis
23-06-2015, 13:28:51
sad but strong :b:

nice songs. travelling ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9iiK7q2RC4

Ill make my communion with seawater,
Distilled from your body drop by drop,
in an ancient copper cup from Algiers,
As done by pirates of old before the fight.

Where are you coming from? From Babylon,
Where are you going? To the eye of the cyclone.
Whom do you love? A Gypsy maid,
What is her name? Fata Morgana

A leather sail, all smeared with wax,
Of cedar-wood reeking, of incense and varnish,
Like the smell of the hold in an aging ship
Built at that time on Euphrates in Phoenicia.

Where are you coming from? From Babylon,
Where are you going? To the eye of the cyclone.
Whom do you love? A Gypsy maid,
What is her name? Fata Morgana.

Fire-hued rust in the mines of Sina,
The capes of Gerakini and Stratoni
That coating, that old blessed rust gave us birth,
It feeds us, feeds on us, and then it kill us.

Where are you coming from? From Babylon,
Where are you going? To the eye of the cyclone.
Whom do you love? A Gypsy maid,
What is her name? Fata Morgana.

The Mad Monk
24-06-2015, 16:08:06
Very nice. :)

Another tragic song, about an actual event this time:

The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw), by Canadian Folksinger Gordon Lightfoot.

A tribute to the 29 men who died November 10, 1975, aboard the Edmund Fitzgerald in Lake Superior.

----
Announcer (0:04): An air and sea search is continuing for possible survivors of the Edmund Fitzgerald, a 729 foot ore carrier, which apparently broke apart and sunk last night on Lake Superior. The ship and its 29-man crew vanished in a storm with 80 mile-an-hour winds and wave heights up to 25 feet. All that has been found is an oil slick and some debris.
--
song begins at 0:17
--
Radio Transmission (3:11): "We last had contact with 'em, the mate had talked to him ... at about 10 minutes after 7, 19:10, and he said he was going along fine and no problem."
--
Radio Transmission (3:21): "But it looks from the information that we have that it's, uh, fairly certain that the, uh, Fitzgerald went down."
--
Radio Transmission (4:04): "Uh, no, I didn't have him, uh, visually, I had him on radar; he was, uh, exactly 10 miles ahead of us. I asked him how he was making out with his problems and he said he was holding his own, but I, uh, lost contact after that."

----

Lyrics:

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they called "Gitche Gumee"
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
when the skies of November turn gloomy
With a load of iron ore twenty-six thousand tons more
than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty,
that big ship and true was a bone to be chewed
when the Gales of November came early

The ship was the pride of the American side
coming back from some mill in Wisconsin
As the big freighters go, it was bigger than most
with a crew and good captain well seasoned,
concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
when they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ship's bell rang,
could it be the north wind they'd been feelin'?

The wind in the wires made a tattle-tale sound
and a wave broke over the railing
And ev'ry man knew, as the captain did too
'twas the witch of November come stealin'
The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait
when the Gales of November came slashin'
When afternoon came it was freezin' rain
in the face of a hurricane west wind

When suppertime came the old cook came on deck sayin'
"Fellas, it's too rough t'feed ya"
At seven P.M. a main hatchway caved in; he said,
"Fellas, it's bin good t'know ya!"
The captain wired in he had water comin' in
and the good ship and crew was in peril
And later that night when 'is lights went outta sight
came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald

Does any one know where the love of God goes
when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay
if they'd put fifteen more miles behind 'er
They might have split up or they might have capsized;
they may have broke deep and took water
And all that remains is the faces and the names
of the wives and the sons and the daughters

Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings
in the rooms of her ice-water mansion
Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams;
the islands and bays are for sportsmen
And farther below Lake Ontario
takes in what Lake Erie can send her,
And the iron boats go as the mariners all know
with the Gales of November remembered

In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed,
in the Maritime Sailors' Cathedral
The church bell chimed 'til it rang twenty-nine times
for each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they call "Gitche Gumee"
"Superior," they said, "never gives up her dead
when the gales of November come early"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgI8bta-7aw

zmama
24-06-2015, 17:51:28
One of my favorite songs

jsorense
24-06-2015, 21:06:07
Having worked on The Lakes I can testify his song is hauntingly authentic.

Oerdin
24-06-2015, 21:38:31
So what are the odds they work something out but the Greek Parliament refuses to back it?

MDA
24-06-2015, 23:06:42
:beer: They played it lots every fall when I was growing up on Lake Erie. Good song when you're sitting around watching for waterspouts to form.

I may also name my haulers in Eve after that ship, just in case I get ganked.

paiktis
25-06-2015, 09:21:12
So what are the odds they work something out but the Greek Parliament refuses to back it?

I don't know. It's all german to me.

http://www.socialeurope.eu/2015/06/why-angela-merkels-is-wrong-on-greece/

There won't be an issue to get anything passed from the greek parl. By anything I mean even the paranoid schizophrenic demands of the loan sharks as they stand now.

Tsipras could see some of his party members defect and not sign the deal but there is a big backup of 5th phalanx tiny free market small penis dictators fishing for personal and partizan gain, ready to side with a tsirpas deal and get the deal passed.

That doesn't matter though, because with a 64% of greek public opinion stating that it stands fearless on leaving the euro, tsipras has a lot of leeway and of course,he's too young. He won't commit political suicide. In other words, he won't bring a deal that will be the death warrant of his own political demise.

The EU screwed the pooch so bad, any deal or no deal or good deal or bad deal will be now insufficient to save it.
And it serves it right.

You can't go worship a dead carcass. When the rejuvenating juices of the Eu have dried up (democracy, human rights, social state) then pretending to support it is wrong.

There will be a 4 month extension, or Greece will be the Ifigeneia of Europe promtply providing a chain reaction of dissolution. It's not a trojan horse though, because there's no intent.

The current EU leadership is too weak, too blind and too dumb to see what's coming.

So maybe a 4 month extension, same difference.

paiktis
25-06-2015, 09:56:30
BTW I love it how the country is culturally restructuring itself and that this is being done through necessaity.

The inactivity and chicken game tsipras played for 4 months was inexcusable but the demands of the creditors are surreal, completely detouched from any sort of form of reality.

When the power gets driven off the hands of citizens and onto that of bankers, when the political elite refuses to stand up to its predetermined role this happens.
And it's all good and fine. Historical evolution and all.

However, I can't but laugh at those pitiful thousands that paraded indisciminently in favor of the EU.
They were tore down to shreds by an intelectual barage of affront that will have them cursed the hour they were born :D

It was spectacular when a commentator pointed out that they have internalized the current racist narative of the dominent european intelligencia and are actually behaving like what malcom x described as house negroes. A fine example of a white mask, black skin psychology by france fanon on the stockholm syndrome of colonial slaves.

Their so called europeanism doesn't stem from an adherence - hell not even an understanding - of englightment values and of values of logical narative, that they falsy monkey - like associate with europe, but from their internalization of every racist narative the dominent political elite has come up with to justify its disasterous austerity policy. Very remenescant of the frightening 30's narative.
A discard of their "masters" will be a risk to their formation of identity.

House negros indeed.


When you have achieved such an overwhelming intelectual victory over your meagre opposition, the sky is the limit really.
But is all done out of necessaity not choice (I think most things in the world are like that)

Of course, they could just have been representatives of the defeated right wing. Some of its senators also took part in the parade. Doesn't help them that they make a monkey look intellectual and that they are in favor of austerity when they have 53 homes each. It was hilarious.

But infuriating.

All these are good and fine but don't hold a candle to taking a dive in the sea at the beach, which I intend to do on saturday. Probably when the next zombie deal will be struck.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-06-2015, 17:21:07
"When you have achieved such an overwhelming intelectual victory over your meagre opposition"

Said the black knight.

jsorense
25-06-2015, 19:46:52
It's only a scratch!

paiktis
26-06-2015, 05:17:39
:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5YU_spBw0

paiktis
26-06-2015, 07:17:16
The pitiful scene of those who prtested in syntagma square in so called in favor of the european perspective of the country, holding flags of the EU and shouting rythmically "eyuore, europe", with their stupid mispelled banners in english which condemned the "red state", the syndicates and "stalinism in greece" are just one more proof of the internalization, by a large part of the population, of an orientalist view of the greeks by the west.



Those people reporduce all the racist stereotypes for Greece that the dominant european narative contstructed (lazy greeks, with archaic social structures who demand to live richly by money borrowed by the europeans and never returned). At the same time, they defend a caricature of europeanism who seems to come straight out of cold war propagandistic videos of anti-communist content from the decade of the 50s.

(:D)

The gathered protestors, in their majority, members of lowmiddle and middle class, yelled for Greece to stay in Europe, which they identify solely with the euro.

A europe, whose leadership and organic intellectuals treat Greece, the last years, wholely racistly and dissmisively.

They humiliate its governments - "you are a fucking psychopath" sarkozi said to G. papandreou in Cannes in 2011 - they ridicule its ministers and show, in their large circulation newspapers, Greece with racist motives that link directly to the scary decade of the '30s

(:D absolutely true)


A europe who insists on a policy of austerity and cut backs despite the financial disaster of the last 5 years and on repayment of a debt that can't be repayed in no way, as former german chancellor helmout smit, stated.
And all of these happen against a government, good or bad, that is more europeaistic than the europeans themselves and fanatically in favor of the euro, and that the only thing it asks from the "paradise" europe is for VAT not to be increased and not to cut back further on the pensions.

Those who protested, are not europeanists, in the sense of defending some western, enlightment values that they identify with europe, except if these values are being embodied by georgiad and voultepsi (cc known ridiculous politicians of the prev. gov)

Following the splendind analysis of frants fanon about the psychology of colonially held people in his "black skin white masks" we would say that they are simply "natives" that have internalized the orientalist image of the westerners about greeks from the foundation of the greek state and beyond. As a pro-modernist, unorthological society in the grey zone of the balkans, which typically belongs to europe but is not a real part of the west.

A consequence of this internalization is that (the protestors) have developed an inferiority complex as belonging in a "problematic" and not exactly "western" society, which they try to overcompensate by monkey-imitating whatever they perceive as western culture and of course, by submitting themselves completely to they dictates of their master (the europeans) who, as a carrier of "enlightment" and "logical speech" is always right.
The perspective of them forfeiting this imaginiray acceptance of that Lord, constists for them almost a loss of identity and fills them with dread.

Those people are not "europeans" as they smuggly believe for themselves and agonizingly try to prove.

They are (according to malcom x) the house negros of the europeans.


:D :D

https://sxoliastesxwrissynora.wordpress.com/2015/06/20/%CE%B5%CF%85%CF%81%CF%89%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%8A%CE%BA%C E%AD%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BA%C F%8C-%CE%B4%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%BC%CE%B1-2/

(the first pic is misleading since it is from furomulanbdia, the two others are from greece :D)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
26-06-2015, 08:50:27
No, really? Tell That to Spain, Portugal, Ireland.

When will Greece establish a tax administration that can actually enforce some tax laws? Would save you from a rise in the VAT rate, might even allow for some extra pension money...

paiktis
26-06-2015, 09:06:45
Let's not be deliberately obtuse.

When the tax base has been reduced by 25% as direct result of austerity, there sinply aren't no taxes to collect. That is if one wants to retain a semblance of a civilized state and not completely drive to the ground its social state even further.
If one wants to do that, then that will present some problems.


Spain ireland and the rest are fighting to retain their own syrizas from propping up. That's why today's creditor proposals are utopic. Either Greece accepts them and thus prove to the others that they have to bow their heads and keep living in neoliberal misery for ever or they are rejected, which then means, end to the necrozone, sorry, eurozone experiment. Fun while it lasted.

http://www.ert.gr/charlie-hebdo-noyez-un-grec/
:D

and now a heart warming fighting song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJNoCtcc1bk

paiktis
26-06-2015, 09:36:48
besides there are theories that the eurocrats are plotting a subversion of the gov and a replacement of it by more accomodating to them political schemes.
If this happens, it's the second coup d' etat.
It would seem that even a social democracy is unacceptable within the eurozone.
A definite prove that the euro is an undemocratic instrument designed to impoverish peoples.

It will stand on trial then :mad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

paiktis
26-06-2015, 23:18:45
Referendum.

Kiss your eurozone goodbye.

Democracy cannot be blackmailed, democracy does not surrender.

Greeks are democracy.

And if anyone is thinking about subverting the government, they have another surprise coming.

The referendum will be no.

Freedom

fuck all y all (not you guys, except oerdin :D)


peace

paiktis out

C.G.B. Spender
27-06-2015, 13:26:58
I'm sure you will be missed

jsorense
27-06-2015, 16:11:00
:p:violin:

Oerdin
28-06-2015, 09:10:24
You haven't even agreed on the terms yet, you default next tuesday, and now your cowardly politicians say they won't agree to anything without a national referendum. Obviously, you will default before there is any vote so I must conclude your cowardly politicians want to default but want to pretend it isn't their fault.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
28-06-2015, 14:25:26
Let's not be deliberately obtuse.

When the tax base has been reduced by 25% as direct result of austerity, there sinply aren't no taxes to collect.

Ok.
40 % of 100 = 40.
40 % of 75 = 0.

Grecian mathematics. No wonder there is no deal to be found.

Btw, the VAT gap in Greece - as measured against GDP - is around 35 %, compared to an EU average of about 15 %.

Oerdin
28-06-2015, 22:20:52
Banks closed and conflicting reports about capital controls being put in place.

C.G.B. Spender
29-06-2015, 05:45:45
What we learned so far: the greek invented debtmocracy.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-06-2015, 06:08:35
Interesting experiment for a referendum:

Do you want others to pay for our mess? yes/no

paiktis
29-06-2015, 07:41:25
Bull. No offence.
The greeks needed to have done lots of things, to this there is no question.

However, the IMF violated its own rules out of pressure by germany to get entangled in a program with a country whose debt was unservicable.

The fuck up starts from there.

Now of course the eurozone is fried.

I'm more concerned about my compatriots thank you very much.

Not about some piece of shit country which bloodbathed europe twice and is going for a third time.

Still, one should approach this rationally.

The program presented was destined to get rejected. No sane politician would want to accept it.

The conservative forces in europe (the cripple, god forgive me) is making it clear that they have certain govs that they accept and others that they don't and they don't accept syriza.

The people will decide.

I fear personally for the people that will see their savings devalued if a return to the drachma is agreed. That the eurozone will implode is secondary to my mind.

When all you hear from europe is how the euro will be saved and not what consequences this has on people, you have to think about people.

We will see.

I guess , this is the big time of my generation.

I'm still going to the beach, bitch.

paiktis
29-06-2015, 07:46:52
I'm going to say something though:

the left is about the people. Wiping out the savings of people is not servicing them.
The people need to decide. A stop to this, their savings devalued and a new start?
Or that misery that is imposed that will last for decades.

What is best for the people?

C.G.B. Spender
29-06-2015, 07:47:24
Welcome back!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-06-2015, 07:59:12
"Now of course the eurozone is fried."

Actually, the eurozone may be finally getting rid of a problem.

Just wondering, have the Syriza clowns a plan to start a parallel currency? Otherwise, everything will break down in Greece pretty fast.

paiktis
29-06-2015, 08:03:24
The eurozone is not getting rid of a problem, in large part, it is the problem. Rather, it is cutting of its first limp (probably the dick - I say this in the good sense - or if you want to get poetic, its soul) and will eventually die of bleeding with italy and france next.

All this is secondary though.

As to if syriza has a plan, I don't trust varoufakis to tell me what it is. He's changing opinions faster than the eurogroup changes non papers.

MOBIUS
29-06-2015, 10:11:53
Honestly sad to see you go, but if you ain't gonna meet the eurozone halfway...? :(

As for the referendum, well Greece had a fucking referendum = Syriza.

Seems to me that the best thing all round would have been if you guys had have left a few years back. Because now we've bailed you out with billions we'll never see again and you fuckwits still hate us! :p

Still, seems like a good time to go on holiday in a eurozone country right now, so it ain't all bad... :beer:

paiktis
29-06-2015, 11:21:16
Who's you?

the UK?

:lol:

MOBIUS
29-06-2015, 11:46:08
I'm sure we're paying for your fucked up country somehow... ;)

Here's a novel idea: Should Apple buy Greece? (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/should-apple-buy-greece-10244988.html) :D

“I'm pretty sure this kind of bailout would get the Greek people's approval if put to a referendum,” Bershidsky said.

:)

MOBIUS
29-06-2015, 11:48:42
Except the rest of the world would hate you for becoming a tax haven to US mega corps - not to mention Greece having to sell its soul to do so...

paiktis
29-06-2015, 11:54:27
I apprecieate you're trying to be witty and all but it isn't really working

MOBIUS
29-06-2015, 11:55:16
I'm being genuinely helpful :)

MOBIUS
29-06-2015, 11:55:51
Though, being Greek, I can understand why you think my behaviour might be a Trojan Horse... :p

paiktis
29-06-2015, 11:55:54
Go to the goats mobius :mad:
:D

Fistandantilus
29-06-2015, 12:02:26
I'm still going to the beach, bitch.

Nice attitude :lol:

MOBIUS
29-06-2015, 12:28:23
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33311240

The European Commission chief, Jean-Claude Juncker, has said he feels "betrayed" by the "egotism" showed by Greece in the failed debt talks.

He told a news conference that Greek proposals were "delayed" or "deliberately altered" and the Greek people "should be told the truth", but the door was still open to talks.

Talks broke down on Friday sparking a weekend of dramatic developments.

Greece called a surprise referendum and Greek banks are closed for a week.

The negotiations were not "a game of liar's poker", Mr Juncker said. "Either all win or all lose".

He said the talks were broken "unilaterally" by the announcement from the Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras that he was calling a referendum for 5 July.

The European Commission president said that he still believed a Greek exit from the euro was not an option and insisted that the creditors' latest proposal meant more social fairness - "no wage cuts, no pension cuts".

:(

paiktis
29-06-2015, 12:55:46
:lol:

paiktis
29-06-2015, 12:56:22
Are we going to do a cut & paste race?

I know most of them by heart and I'm not interested.

MOBIUS
29-06-2015, 13:32:47
Then to the beach with you! :bounce:

The Mad Monk
29-06-2015, 15:01:43
"and Love Songs"

Being a big Paul Simon fan, I can't help but add that to the thread title every time I read it.

The Mad Monk
29-06-2015, 15:08:14
"Train In The Distance" By Paul Simon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98H5xrUhqp8)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-06-2015, 15:40:53
50 ways to leave the euro....

The Mad Monk
29-06-2015, 16:48:53
Will Greece slip out the back, Jack?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-06-2015, 17:02:50
Slip Slidin’ Away....

zmama
29-06-2015, 18:39:26
The Dangling Conversation

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-06-2015, 19:07:52
Like a bridge over troubled markets

TCO
29-06-2015, 21:13:56
1. About how much public money, imf echo etc., has been spent since the beginning of the crisis. Iow good money after bad.

2. Wouldn't it just have been better to let it all go crash years ago?

3. Why does a default have to affect what currency Greece uses. What is to stop them just cutting all debt service and funding new spending from what they collect in euros. Maybe sell a few assets if needed. Why is having a devaluable currency wanted so much. I mean who will take it if about to be devalued. Unless maybe it is a stealth means to lower govt the ages and pensions?

The Mad Monk
29-06-2015, 22:09:58
:bounce: Hail, O Ancient Submariner!

Koshko
30-06-2015, 03:07:19
Maybe Greece can teach Illinois what to do. This state is billions in debt and doesn't have a budget, which is, you know, kind of needed to pay for things starting in a couple of days.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 05:18:58
Greece can default and keep the Euro. In theory.

In practice, their banks go belly up as they do not have sufficient collateral and are already on a special refinancing line from the ECB. So they need a parallel currency (state vouchers, whatever) to keep going.

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 07:10:14
Parallel currency?
Ah, cigarettes!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 07:13:00
No, Reichsmark.

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 11:31:35
Even better: Tomatenmark

TCO
30-06-2015, 11:41:41
Greece can default and keep the Euro. In theory.

In practice, their banks go belly up as they do not have sufficient collateral and are already on a special refinancing line from the ECB. So they need a parallel currency (state vouchers, whatever) to keep going.

The zombie banks seems like a separate problem. I'm talking about the federal budget. What is to stop the government from just defaulting on all bonds. Then going pay as you go with vendors. And funding their welfare programs from current receipts. They are close to break even with thought debt support.

Let the banks go crash. If they are rotten they are rotten.

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 11:43:49
That's so cute

TCO
30-06-2015, 11:47:18
I don't see why the euros are getting into the minutia of Greek pensions either. They should just worry about if the Greeks can pay him back or not. Why put themselves into the position of micromanaging budget. Let the Greeks decide if they cut military or domestic or sell assets or even default.

Seems like would have been better to just get it over years ago.

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 11:50:29
Subtle thoughts indeed

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 11:50:52
OTOH you can't stay 12 years old forever, can you?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 11:51:38
Rotten Tomatenmark? Or Tomatenmarkrotten?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 11:56:42
Hmm.... let's see: The banks go belly up. So most finacial transactions are on hold. People and businesses can't dispose over their accounts. For things like... uhm.. paying taxes.

The taxman collects olives and pays salaries and pensions in olives.

Seems like a good plan. Syriza style.

Frank
30-06-2015, 12:06:20
Why does it hurt when I pee?

Bob
30-06-2015, 12:11:51
How many ears must one man have?

MOBIUS
30-06-2015, 12:25:04
Paiktis, I do have some sympathy for Greece, because they are being shafted.

But they did shaft themselves in the first place to get themselves into this situation - so my sympathy is limited because it is a democracy and the people themselves voted for their fucked up governments (not necessarily the present one) in a fucked up country...

However, if I were Greek, I'd vote to 'do an Iceland', because it is clear that this 'austerity' is really the rich and powerful fucking Greece up the a$$ to get their money back - AND charging interest to add insult injury...

You guys best get out sooner, rather than later, because the EU doesn't give a shit about you - apart from getting their money back...

Once you've got out, I'd go and round up all the past governments and the rich that benefited from the previous state of affairs and expropriate their assets and throw them into jail!

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/29/joseph-stiglitz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum?CMP=share_btn_fb

:violin:

TCO
30-06-2015, 12:34:30
Hmm.... let's see: The banks go belly up. So most finacial transactions are on hold. People and businesses can't dispose over their accounts. For things like... uhm.. paying taxes.

The taxman collects olives and pays salaries and pensions in olives.

Seems like a good plan. Syriza style.

They are private entities Roland. Let them fail. People can go pay cash or open new banks if th y choose. You are just delaying the ineditable and making private losses public.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 12:35:11
Well, Stiglitz is being obtuse. "almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there." - So Greece did not run up the debt up to 2008. The banks just showed up and said "you owe us a few hundred billion".

Greece ran a huge foreign account deficit and had inflated its ecomony with excessive debt. That would have been a crash either way.

The problem is that unlike Spain, Portugal or Ireland, Greece is still digging its own grave. But for the outcome: Yes, leave the euro, devalue your new currency. It's the only other option.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 12:35:35
tco, where will people get "cash"?

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 12:48:18
I meant 5 years old.

MOBIUS
30-06-2015, 12:53:01
Well, Stiglitz is being obtuse. "almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there." - So Greece did not run up the debt up to 2008. The banks just showed up and said "you owe us a few hundred billion".

Greece ran a huge foreign account deficit and had inflated its ecomony with excessive debt. That would have been a crash either way.

The problem is that unlike Spain, Portugal or Ireland, Greece is still digging its own grave. But for the outcome: Yes, leave the euro, devalue your new currency. It's the only other option.

I do basically agree. But as usual, it is the people that are not responsible for this mess that are getting shafted.

On another note, have you got a spare 3 euros? (http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/a-man-is-trying-to-crowdfund-16bn-to-bail-out-greece-and-wants-your-help--Zy2qvL6mfe) :D

TCO
30-06-2015, 12:57:38
tco, where will people get "cash"?

Tourists. And people who buy olives. And sell real estate. And their mattresses.

Just basic sales of gods and services.

TCO
30-06-2015, 13:08:25
Well, Stiglitz is being obtuse. "almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there." - So Greece did not run up the debt up to 2008. The banks just showed up and said "you owe us a few hundred billion".

Greece ran a huge foreign account deficit and had inflated its ecomony with excessive debt. That would have been a crash either way.

The problem is that unlike Spain, Portugal or Ireland, Greece is still digging its own grave. But for the outcome: Yes, leave the euro, devalue your new currency. It's the only other option.

Why not just stiff the creditors but continue to use that nice yummy stable currency. During the Cold War a lot of the black market in commie countries used dollars. It's just a medium of exchange. Why not use a stable existing euro. Greece federal budget is about break even if they welsh on their bonds.

Also I wouldn't worry about the trade deficit. That will get worked out the hard way. Anyone selling to Greek govt can just require cash. Same with untrustworthy companies or individuals. This is really not so strange Roland. Businesses do credit checks on customers and decide on terms. Lots of other poor countries govt have to pay cash. And in minerals cash settlement is common as there are a lot of flakes doing business. If the hairy fookers lack money then they can do without and the trade deficit will change as a result

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 13:12:28
Tourists. And people who buy olives. And sell real estate. And their mattresses.

Just basic sales of gods and services.

Did I say five? HAHAHAHA, marvellous.

TCO
30-06-2015, 13:17:00
I wonder if Greece has any oil or natural gas to frack. Serious.

Remember Roland all true wealth comes from the ground. Not your Enron dot com financier macro Econ games. ;)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 13:22:36
A physiocratic Georgist, I presume?

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 13:24:02
Switzerland is doomed.

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 13:27:39
unless they manage to dig up some olive motherlode

TCO
30-06-2015, 13:31:09
A physiocratic Georgist, I presume?

Too smart for me man. Don't get it.

But srsly dude. Don't cyp and Israel have some nat gas. Maybe the trend extends into the Aegean and Ionian seas. And there's a big market in Europe.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 13:57:00
"Why not use a stable existing euro."

Montenegro and Kosovo do. But Greece is probably too big for that, and does not have a sufficient inflow of Euros. Anyway, this would mean they have to continue the internal devaluation.

TCO
30-06-2015, 14:04:00
"Why not use a stable existing euro."

Montenegro and Kosovo do. But Greece is probably too big for that, and does not have a sufficient inflow of Euros. Anyway, this would mean they have to continue the internal devaluation.

Well they have some now cause that is what they use. Not sure why size should matter. After all the currency sustains current Greece being in euro. So circulation would be similar. If it appreciates because more cash in circulation so be it. Macro weenies can handle that at wherever euros are issued. Besides that's not greeces problem.

I don't understand second sentence.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
30-06-2015, 14:06:52
2nd sentence: Greece is not competitive.

TCO
30-06-2015, 14:14:34
"Why not use a stable existing euro."

Montenegro and Kosovo do. But Greece is probably too big for that, and does not have a sufficient inflow of Euros. Anyway, this would mean they have to continue the internal devaluation.

How do Montenegro and Kosovo get their euros. Your question from before. I assume they just sell stuff and then sell amongst themselves. For the Greeks it's even easy. No transition of an existing currency needed. They are already using euros.

If there are bad debts amongst the Greeks that is a different issue than the currency. Just let those unwind. Nothing like getting stiffed to make people more careful in future. And nothing like a bailout to promote continued irresponsibility.

And for those greeks who have cash on hand things should be great. Nothing like having money during a recession. The world is your oyster. The other people can just sell goods and services. Supply and demand still exist.

TCO
30-06-2015, 14:21:28
2nd sentence: Greece is not competitive.

That's their choice Roland. Not everyone appreciates a culture where you go to the Bakker and make 100k driving a truck and 300k as a rig manager. And then the next month you are laid off with no package. I mean I think it's fucking cool. And it makes it possible to ramp up and down very well. But if they choose to be more socialist that is their deal. Let them.

Just don't loan them money. And if you did before then why continue for 4 more years. And especially if it is private entities making loans then let them take it in the ass when the socialist sun boys default.

TCO
30-06-2015, 14:42:50
This guy says you should have just gotten it over with in 2010 with a default. Also that the funds provided were a govt bailout if German and French banks. You have banksters, there too, Roland.

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/anil.kashyap/research/papers/A-Primer-on-the-Greek-Crisis_june29.pdf

TCO
30-06-2015, 15:42:30
http://econbrowser.com/archives/2015/06/renegotiating-greeks-debt

This guy says they are still well in deficit even without debt payments. More work needed when they default I guess. But also more reason to cut them off and not keep spending money on them. Good money after bad.

Also says it was a bailout of German banks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/11/opinion/the-cost-of-protecting-greeces-public-sector.html?_r=0

This guy says they are too socialistic. He's greek too.

TCO
30-06-2015, 15:49:20
Man I hope we let PR go boom. Let the bond holders take it in the butt. Let pr deal with pay as you go from vendors. And they can tighten their belt if not enough money to fund purchases and payments. And do without if people refuse to give them credit. It's not like anyone can seize assets so I don't think they ev n need br protection.

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 17:33:49
What about this idea: Qu'ils mangent de la brioche

The Mad Monk
30-06-2015, 19:40:27
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/pew.png

Fistandantilus
30-06-2015, 19:57:17
I love how we italians nominate ourselves as the least trustworthy.
Self consciousness :smoke:

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 20:38:07
It's called "being realistic"

C.G.B. Spender
30-06-2015, 20:40:08
And Poland is very schizo when comes to trust Germans.
TRUST US. THAT'S AN ORDER, PIGDOGS!

TCO
30-06-2015, 21:33:26
Was expecting a few more votes for perfidious Albion.

TCO
30-06-2015, 21:35:27
The poles have an I teresting take on German trust. Wonder why it is bi modal like hat.

TCO
01-07-2015, 03:56:47
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

How can you even work with people like this Roland? Why not cut them off and let them sort things out on own. Will still be screwed up but at least you don't pay for it.

P.s. I wonder what Markos says.

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 06:53:42
Wouldn't it be great if the greeks had an Euro for every "Roland" in this thread? It could be their new currency: the Rolander!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-07-2015, 07:21:53
You should know that, you Nordländer:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_(Regionalgeld)

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 09:10:06
It's only fair to compare Greece to Bremen.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-07-2015, 09:22:59
Piräus+Bremen=Bier aus

MOBIUS
01-07-2015, 12:59:21
Just basic sales of gods and services.

Plastic Zeus' are all the rage :D

MOBIUS
01-07-2015, 13:05:54
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/pew.png

I love how the Greeks are utterly deluded totally split from reality!

I also like how we still basically hate the French... :D

MOBIUS
01-07-2015, 13:16:31
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

How can you even work with people like this Roland? Why not cut them off and let them sort things out on own. Will still be screwed up but at least you don't pay for it.

P.s. I wonder what Markos says.

Oh yeah, I forgot about all this...

Fuck you, Paiktis and your stupid country! :shoot:

I do genuinely feel sorry for any genuinely innocent Greeks out there, but I suspect those are few and far between... ;)

Funko
01-07-2015, 13:21:25
Oh god, I was right not to come into this thread.

Can we leave the ridiculous racist generalisations for the tubby place and just make crap puns here?

MOBIUS
01-07-2015, 13:23:05
Spoilsport! :(

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 13:40:03
I like this thread very noch indeed.
I also like wanking!

The Mad Monk
01-07-2015, 14:06:14
http://www.craiglotter.co.za/images/20090504-I-Command-You-to-Wank.jpg

Funko
01-07-2015, 14:24:06
Ok, we're back on track, carry on.

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 14:51:30
Almost done ...

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 14:51:51
Shit, got that "sticky mouse" phenomenon

I can't believe I edited this post!!!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-07-2015, 15:28:45
Same problem Tsipras had with his referendum question.

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 15:45:23
You mean "Am I an useless sissy or do we beg for mum's money"?

zmama
01-07-2015, 16:10:54
I'd like some money!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-07-2015, 16:45:45
"are you for or against - I'll tell you later, what...."

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 18:50:52
I'd like some money!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-P2qL3qkzk

zmama
01-07-2015, 19:20:20
That's what I want

MDA
01-07-2015, 19:47:31
https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html

C.G.B. Spender
01-07-2015, 20:25:05
Shit. I already donated about 2500 EUR. And so did my wife. And my kids. And my parents, That 15,000 EUR in total. Yay, god save their democracy and their beaches

jsorense
01-07-2015, 23:12:45
Maybe democracy isn't the same thing as economy?

The Mad Monk
02-07-2015, 04:15:57
Unrestrained Democracy is pretty much the opposite of Economy.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-07-2015, 05:46:39
People trying to vote themselves other people's money looks pretty economic.

C.G.B. Spender
02-07-2015, 05:55:35
I would vote for money. What was the second chioce? I forgot already.

[x] Money
[ ] Whatever

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-07-2015, 06:14:17
[ ] Money
[ ] Mo' money
[ ] Much much money

TCO
02-07-2015, 14:41:23
I wonder if you would be better off with a no vote, Roland. Whether they stay in euro or get out. There's no way, they are going to pay their own bills until the aid gets cut off. And a yes vote means more aid continues.

From a cynical Greek side, a yes vote means they can just keep playing you guys along. Good luck actually getting the results of a yes vote to translate into actual implementation. That hasn't happened for the 4 years previously anyways.

This reminds me of when Quebec had a separatist vote and the people in Ontario wondered why they couldn't vote to evict them. ;)

TCO
02-07-2015, 15:34:59
This NYT letter to the editor makes the same point albeit from the other side, politically.

"While I very often agree with Paul Krugman on purely economic considerations, I believe that his recommendation of a “no” vote in Greece’s referendum is in error.

This referendum is first and foremost a political question as to the future relationship between Greece and the European Union, and only secondarily an economic policy question after the political relationship has been redefined.

For Greeks it is better to vote “yes” to strengthen their political relationship and negotiating position with the Eurogroup, if for no other reason than the Euroskeptics outside Greece are foaming at the mouth for them to vote “no.” Then later if “yes” does not eventually lead to a livable settlement with the Eurogroup, they very likely will have another option to vote “no,” especially under the current government.

On the other hand, if Greeks vote “no” this time, they may not ever have an option to vote “yes” later as their current government very likely will not give them another chance to do so."

C.G.B. Spender
02-07-2015, 15:59:54
Oh I do know what's best for them Greeks, lazy gits they are!
But I sit on my sofa with a glass of Cognac in my hand, rise it against the light, admire the colour of this fantastic boisson and think about the Greek. Thank god I don't have to fight my fellow countrymen at the ATM, but still I do know what's best for the greeks. I'm going to write a letter to a well-known newspaper myself. My ideas of rescuing the greek economy in general. It involves killing the greek pensioners, labour camps and organic olive oil kibbutzim. They may even offer me their crown someday, King Spender on the sofa. Yes, if I they would let me, I know everything (like everyone else too btw.). I'm such a very fine and clever man!
Cheers!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-07-2015, 16:21:45
They already have Varoufakis for that job.

jsorense
02-07-2015, 16:22:51
King Vincent the First, it does have a ring to it.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-07-2015, 16:25:55
I wonder if you would be better off with a no vote,

Probably. But it's hard to tell, as the Syriza clowns have no plan:

Yes: They say they resign. But in reality will at least carry on as a caretaker government, with no clue what to do.

No: They wait for a better deal which most likely will not come along. Meanwhile, the country collapses. Seems they really have no plan in place for a parallel currency.

I've read a blog entry from Varoufakis back in early 2014. He states that Greece can force the Eurozone into a deal as they fear the Grexit. He severly overplayed his hand.

C.G.B. Spender
02-07-2015, 18:46:37
You read a blog entry? You need a life!

TCO
02-07-2015, 19:25:59
I think I have too much of a shadenfreude woodie, so will let it go. Thanks for the discussion and info from you and MM. (I have Mobius and CGB on ignore from a while ago, so not sure if I missed some relevant content.)

P.s. I'm fascinated with the US NG and oil boom. Not sure that was even on our radar during the econothread days.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-07-2015, 19:31:16
LIQUIFY IT!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-07-2015, 19:31:41
You read a blog entry? You need a life!

I'll try watching basement ceilings instead.

C.G.B. Spender
02-07-2015, 19:38:19
That's a nice first step. Now: FOCUS!

C.G.B. Spender
02-07-2015, 19:40:29
Hahaha and poor sod still has me on ignore. Lala-lalala! I bet he hits "show this post" all the time. Gotcha!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-07-2015, 19:54:39
That's a nice first step. Now: FOCUS!

http://www.focus.de :gasmaske_eek::gasmaske_puke:

TCO
05-07-2015, 21:06:16
Roland, what happens now?

C.G.B. Spender
05-07-2015, 21:58:25
This is what happenes now: The sun will rise again. Babys will be born. People die. In a year or so I'll bump this thread and we'll see how crappy all predictions were. That's what happenes now.

And if you say "Roland" one more time I'll kick you in you tiny balls. That's not a prediction.

TCO
06-07-2015, 01:04:21
Maybe the Eu should hold a vote if they want to give Greece more money. Fair is fair.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
06-07-2015, 05:51:17
3 options:
- Eurogroup waits, Greece goes belly-up and has to use a parallel currency
- Eurogroup and Greece find a deal - unlikely, especially as a precedent for Spain etc
- All agree to watch basement ceilings instead

Dyl Ulenspiegel
06-07-2015, 05:51:59
And if you say "Roland" one more time I'll kick you in you tiny balls. That's not a prediction.

Say ohmmmm.... watch the basement ceiling... say ohmmm....

MOBIUS
06-07-2015, 12:34:23
Oxi-morons?

FWIW, if I were an average Greek person in the street, I'dve voted 'Oxi' too... :brwncard:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
06-07-2015, 13:24:00
Oxi as in "we need a turnaround, right into the wall".

TCO
06-07-2015, 15:29:49
3 options:
- Eurogroup waits, Greece goes belly-up and has to use a parallel currency
- Eurogroup and Greece find a deal - unlikely, especially as a precedent for Spain etc
- All agree to watch basement ceilings instead

I don't understand the third option. I must not be in on some allusions.

For the first, they could just keep using euros no? I mean it's a hard currency. Would you send a cargo from overseas for payment in some scrip? If they set up a new currency, what the heck will be backing it? I guess maybe they could compel Greek vendors to accept it from the government and demand goods at some fixed prices. Ai yi yi.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
06-07-2015, 15:57:43
They can keep using euros, sure. Just most likely, they won't have enough of them.

One option is to pay salaries and pensions in government bills. Nominal value say 100 €, will be traded sup par but could work to keep transactions going.

In the 19th century, paper money often traded at a discount to gold or silver coin while having the same denomination. So that would be possible.

The question is whether that would violate the legal tender clause in the Euro regulation.

Fistandantilus
06-07-2015, 19:37:02
They should print deutsche marks and pretend to be germany

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-07-2015, 06:46:16
100 Schweinhund

Finn Willi (5)
07-07-2015, 12:08:21
They could make millions from that!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-07-2015, 16:05:08
Geld her, Schweinhund!

http://meedia.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/06-hb_meedia21.jpg

C.G.B. Spender
07-07-2015, 17:14:34
The old "IE-EI" mistake

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-07-2015, 17:23:13
Geld her, Schwienhund!

Finn Willi (5)
07-07-2015, 17:49:08
Huh, I misread it as "Geld her oder ich schiesse"!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-07-2015, 18:24:23
Klarer Fall von Legasthenei.

C.G.B. Spender
08-07-2015, 06:03:25
Leihgastenie

TCO
08-07-2015, 19:19:55
I've been reading up on Greece. James Hamilton, a moderately left leaning economist, says that they do not have enough income to meet spending (even with all debts and interest wiped out). There are a bunch of accounting gimmicks (a Greek tendancy) to even get to that surplus. Probably 8% in deficit. Maybe worse with economy deteriorating after they get cut off (if they do).

I think you should let them default or whatever they choose to do, next. But just stop sending more money there. No matter what. Should have done this in 2010. You can't control what they do. but you can control what you do. Just stop sending money.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-07-2015, 19:47:08
It's possible that Tsipras will grant that wish. There are just two explanations for his behaviour: Stunning incompetence or a strategy to get Greece out of the Euro and blame others.

But I'm still not sure which....

TCO
08-07-2015, 20:20:00
There are country governments and peoples that do nonoptimal things all the time. Look at Africa, Venezuela, etc. Or even the US in Iraq or Germany in...well never mind, you guys get beat up enough about that. ;)

Sooner or later you gotta sopt being a finky countrolling Euro type and just let other countries do what they choose and you do what you choose.

I still think it would be hilarious if DE decided to do a referendum (at the last minute, with about 2 weeks of delay) to see if they want to fund any more cash to Greece. The terms would be (yes/no): do you want to pay more money to Greece based on their promises to reform. Linked documents for the "more money" and the "promise to reform".

The whole time before the vote, Greece would be gradually imploding. But...well...gotta be democratic. :p

After that a plebiscite in the Sud Tirol. :beer:

C.G.B. Spender
08-07-2015, 20:25:28
Yeah. Südtirol. An austrian Nazi revisionist might like that thought. What about Roland. Sorry, I meant Poland. Maas, Memel, Etsch, belt, that's the way we spell New York! God, how I miss good ole Reich. Europa is not quite the same with all the Untermenschen. And I guess we still have spare ... um ... camp supplies. Lets go back where it all started ...

C.G.B. Spender
08-07-2015, 20:26:19
and minstrel shows that is!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-07-2015, 06:57:44
:mad::brwncard:Don't you dare invade me!

C.G.B. Spender
09-07-2015, 09:41:11
Ein'm'arsch

paiktis
09-07-2015, 09:47:17
was'up my bitches?

C.G.B. Spender
09-07-2015, 09:50:24
Did you vote for Oxford or Nairobi?

paiktis
09-07-2015, 09:51:01
No, no, no, nonono no nooo you're not the one for me :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_aPYxILFc

Oerdin
09-07-2015, 09:53:32
I've been reading up on Greece. James Hamilton, a moderately left leaning economist, says that they do not have enough income to meet spending (even with all debts and interest wiped out). There are a bunch of accounting gimmicks (a Greek tendancy) to even get to that surplus. Probably 8% in deficit. Maybe worse with economy deteriorating after they get cut off (if they do).

I think you should let them default or whatever they choose to do, next. But just stop sending more money there. No matter what. Should have done this in 2010. You can't control what they do. but you can control what you do. Just stop sending money.

They said they don't want to reform their effectively closed and over regulated economy. Fine, let them do what they want just don't loan them any more money. They will crash out of the Euro, have 40% yearly inflation, and shortages of all imported goods (which means of everything but feta cheese and olives) and then, just maybe then, the dumb asses will figure out where they went wrong. Or more likely they will continue trying to blame everyone else for their own actions and refuse to change.

Either way it will be their problem.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 09:56:02
dancons le sirtaki

http://www.enikos.gr/international/328257,Charlie-Hebdo-O-Olant-kai-h-Merkel-xoreyoyn-syrtaki.html

paiktis
09-07-2015, 10:13:04
On an even more pertinent note, the euro is fried just as the EU is. Well done Germany
3rd time is the charm.

Now, the euro will fail in a matter of months or years. I only have one objection.

Why is Greece again the vangaurd. We are hard working people, we should get some rest and let others open the way.

Always in the front of the line *sigh*

Greeks stop working. Let others do the work for you!

Fistandantilus
09-07-2015, 10:16:57
Wow

paiktis
09-07-2015, 10:20:10
https://www.google.gr/search?q=jamais+sans+la+grece&biw=1024&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=IUqeVeiDEoXe7Aaem6nYBg&ved=0CB4QsAQ#imgrc=aoaNGT_QCF7REM%3A

The answer is in this photo. They won't let us go because they adore our slick figure. That's why they insist on giving us more money. They won't take no for an answer!!!

Also, this situation is uncomfortable. I'm tired of getting proped up by the US. It's insulting.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 10:33:39
Paiktis, I do have some sympathy for Greece, because they are being shafted.

But they did shaft themselves in the first place to get themselves into this situation - so my sympathy is limited because it is a democracy and the people themselves voted for their fucked up governments (not necessarily the present one) in a fucked up country...

However, if I were Greek, I'd vote to 'do an Iceland', because it is clear that this 'austerity' is really the rich and powerful fucking Greece up the a$$ to get their money back - AND charging interest to add insult injury...

You guys best get out sooner, rather than later, because the EU doesn't give a shit about you - apart from getting their money back...

Once you've got out, I'd go and round up all the past governments and the rich that benefited from the previous state of affairs and expropriate their assets and throw them into jail!

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/29/joseph-stiglitz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum?CMP=share_btn_fb

:violin:

There's only one problem.

That the rich and afraid have taken all their ill gotten gains out of Greece.

So if we revert to the drachma now, lots of people will lose their life savings. You just can't do that in a population that has suffered so much.

And I believe that this is the one and really only reason that Tsipras will admit an accord and draw the grexit some time in the future.

Everything was predicted apart this.
That normal people did not have the forsee to evacuate their life savings.
This is a mistake that will not be reproduced.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 10:36:00
Apart that yes, the EU has gotten its tombstone dropped squarely on the forehead. That's neoliberalism for you.
Quite barbaric and eventually unsustainable. Coupled with a dysfunctional eurozone mechanism, even more rotten.

We should have gotten out in 2010 or at least push for some realistic debt reduction then, when the fallout would have been maximum. But the established domestic and international oligarchs, outmanouvred us with ease.
Now it's like pulling a tooth out of a syphilis ridden arthritic whore.
A disgusting state of affairs, any way you look at it.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 10:46:46
Also, if you believe that the instinct of the people is correct, then its wishes are inescapable.

Ekali, very very rich suburb, home of all the tax evading, shits : Yes vote was around 80%.
Nikaia, working class poor suburb, No vote at 80%.

The people know very well. This was a class vote.
How should the gov. handle and materialize their wishes? Anyone who says he knows how, is lying.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 12:15:59
Geld her, Schweinhund!

http://meedia.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/06-hb_meedia21.jpg

That's cute.
The trigger would have been pulled if the memorandum was signed.
Which, eventually will be signed because there is no other alternative.
And in 3 monhts, we will be here, with a drachma or euro referendum that drachma will win.

Just a couple more months for the people to get their money out and the EU of oligarchs will be screwed so bad only the soviet powned easterners would want to stay.

Italy 134% debt is next then good old france.

(which I love, because once more it is proven more philleline than lord byron. I never lay my allegience astray. Never.)

Of course, the referendum forced the IMF to admit that the debt is unsustainable, just as the wiki leaks have shown.

And then you have the grandson of a nazi (no joke) that tousk character, out of a food ration store saying that debt should be reduced.
Even juncker the drunk says so and is leaving it for october.

And the US finance minister is saying it and he has fallen in love with our sweet butts so much (he sees things others don't see, like the complete dissolution of the "western alliance". smart guy.)

so couple of months extension, get the money out and then we bang ok?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xnudf_saez-jeune-et-con_music

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-07-2015, 12:41:56
I always suspected the lefties have their own universe, and Greece seems to be there already.

So build your marxist paradise. You can do it. Cuba did. Venezuala did. Do it.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 13:04:41
Just us? :D

The whole balkans will implode, they are all intraconnected with Greece as the sticking glue.

I liked the claquette of merkel in albania. tick tack toe :D
Tell her how they will re-integrate 700.000 albanians that are by now completely greek on top of the 180.000 that have already left. Their banks are screwed. Not to talk about bulgaria. or serbia, or romania.

Cluelessness is rife

paiktis
09-07-2015, 13:08:12
Besides, who talked about marx?

Democracy is where the poor rule over the rich. Oligarchy is where the rich rule over the poor.

Aristotle

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-07-2015, 13:40:26
You overestimate your importance.

And your current state is one of Ochlocracy.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 17:29:50
Europe: the place where everyone talks and then do whatever the US tells them.

So I have a question for that big eared bafoon obama: when are my bank accounts going to open you punk

paiktis
09-07-2015, 19:41:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FVKrVOCpXQ

Finn Willi (5)
09-07-2015, 20:01:29
The question is: Does he feel lucky now?

Oerdin
09-07-2015, 20:55:44
On an even more pertinent note, the euro is fried just as the EU is. Well done Germany
3rd time is the charm.

Now, the euro will fail in a matter of months or years. I only have one objection.

Why is Greece again the vangaurd. We are hard working people, we should get some rest and let others open the way.

Always in the front of the line *sigh*

Greeks stop working. Let others do the work for you!

Maybe you are having these problems because your country is a fucked up place and your people keep voting for stupid and unrealistic policies? Just a thought.

Oh, and both the Euro and the EU will be around for a long time. They just won't have Greeks in the Euro zone but everyone else will be better off because of it. Maybe after you guys learn your lesson and figure out how to function like a modern country (with an actual tax collection system that doesn't have 3/4th of people cheating on their taxes) then you can apply again. No lying about your numbers this time though.

Oerdin
09-07-2015, 21:19:14
Europe: the place where everyone talks and then do whatever the US tells them.

So I have a question for that big eared bafoon obama: when are my bank accounts going to open you punk

When you dumb asses figure out how to run a stable financial system? Hint: You are doing it wrong and it isn't everyone else's fault you are such fuck ups.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 21:24:16
Maybe you are having these problems because your country is a fucked up place and your people keep voting for stupid and unrealistic policies? Just a thought.

Oh, and both the Euro and the EU will be around for a long time. They just won't have Greeks in the Euro zone but everyone else will be better off because of it. Maybe after you guys learn your lesson and figure out how to function like a modern country (with an actual tax collection system that doesn't have 3/4th of people cheating on their taxes) then you can apply again. No lying about your numbers this time though.

We can't do that because then we might become like the racist fucks you are and start killing black kids on the streets because they are too brown before dying of pneumonia since medical care is a joke.

So thanks, no thanks, no cookie.

Oerdin
09-07-2015, 21:25:07
:lol:

Whine and deflect all you want but you will notice the banking systems in everyone else's countries are functioning and we don't have problems paying our bills or borrowing money. Greece does. Gee, it is almost like you guys aren't doing something right, huh?

paiktis
09-07-2015, 21:25:15
When you dumb asses figure out how to run a stable financial system? Hint: You are doing it wrong and it isn't everyone else's fault you are such fuck ups.

When you murderous scum get in in the ASS with a nuclear strike from russia after being dismembered by an all afront islamic assault as punishment for your numerous crimes, then you could talk.
And I'd listen.

paiktis
09-07-2015, 21:26:55
ok charlie?

:lol:

paiktis
09-07-2015, 21:28:29
besides, the eurozone will eventually implode.

Koshko
09-07-2015, 21:39:08
I'm following this casually primarily because I live in Illinois, which currently still does not have a budget (which should have kicked in at the beginning of July), and has at least $111 billion in debt for pensions alone (which they cannot default out of even if the state declares bankruptcy), and has the lowest credit rating in the entire US, and is dead last in fiscal solvency ratings.

Koshko
09-07-2015, 21:42:43
Also our politicians were labelled the most corrupt in the entire country in a recent study. Also again, Illinois has had more governors go to jail than any other state, including ones that have been in the union for considerably longer than them.

MDA
09-07-2015, 22:14:11
but you've still got that Windy City!

and the Cubs

Oerdin
10-07-2015, 00:05:20
Best to not mention the Cubs. They are a source of further disappointment. ;)

Oerdin
10-07-2015, 00:06:18
Well, Red Fred over in Greece has submitted their final proposal.

Koshko
10-07-2015, 00:14:24
but you've still got that Windy City!

and the Cubs

I won't get into the problems Chicago is going through financially right now. Or the gang problems.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 06:11:53
So, is your Greece Illinois or Puerto Rico?

Btw, I suspect the banks are functioning in Illinois? They could function in Greece, too, if they were not hopelessly intertwined with the bancrupt government.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 06:13:49
Well, Red Fred over in Greece has submitted their final proposal.

That's outright hilarious if it weren't so sad.

8 billion: No, Referendum.

Referendum: oxi

A severely damaged economy later: 10-12 billion, ok...

Or maybe just talk with no action.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 08:18:01
There are many ameliorations that Tsipras has passed as in shifting some of the burden from the have nots to the haves and other stuff as well.
(Most importantly he has averted the eurozone coup d'etat against him by the referendum.)


But, the problem is that it remains inside the eurozone straightjacket and that the bail out crematorium will fail. Again.
And that is precisely why I'm going to the beach again.

Other parties are standing in line to take over. Like antarsya (mutiny) and they don't have pseudo dilemas about euro or not euro.
By the time the bail out will implode by its own contradictions (I'd say in around 3 months), other syrizas will have spawened all over the place too. I think Podemos are just half a % point away from the top party there. It just keeps getting easier.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 08:30:15
Well, Tsipras has to sell that story. Especially the coup d'etat thingie.

And you're naive enough to buy it.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 08:31:37
I don't listen to tsipras. I listen to what eurozone officials have said about tsipras.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 08:57:43
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/06/greece-democracy-europe-eu?CMP=fb_gu

guardian has assorted all the quotes in english for your reading pleasure

and you know french, so here's your beloved latvia

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2009/09/REKACEWICZ/18160

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 09:20:19
You leftists are a funny bunch. The guardian clown opens and shows he hasn't got a clue.

"an austerity-induced economic disaster" - nope, that was debt bubble induced.

"The European Central Bank... capped liquidity for Greek banks" - the ECB is still holding out 90 billion in ELA loans, which should not have been granted in the first place. The collateral of the greek banks is crap.

"This is why Greece has bargaining power in its quest for debt relief and for an abandonment of austerity that has already ravaged the country."

Well, if that was so, you didin't get anything out of it.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 09:48:24
Talk about a parrarel reality.
The ECB even withheld illegally bond payments due to greece - no strings attached , anyway, as an extra means of financially inspired regime change.
It still couldn't do it.
But you can't write the rules as you go along.

The debt can be dealt in two ways. The right way and your way.

And what's the last one? That nothing came out of it? You're absolutely right on that. That's why it won't work again. Although a small shift in burden load will go to your favorite oligarchs. Just a fraction, not to worry.

and it got this



"So, what has Alexis Tsipras got for five months of deadlock, angst and the lockdown of his banking sector?

Well, he’s managed to get EU officials to take a hard look at Greece’s debt mountain, and consider measures to make them sustainable.

And although debt relief would probably have been discussed eventually, the crisis has “smoked out” the IMF and the US Treasury to demand debt relief for Greece."


But it had to spit blood to do it. That's no way to do business. Such an analgetic unaccountable byzantine like structure will come crumbling down sooner or later. It just can't cope. (It will work in a dictatorial oligarchy system though, which is exactly where it's heading. Actually it's here it's at.)

paiktis
10-07-2015, 10:09:49
BTW you know that even that abysmally dressed stalinist food ration wich merkel completely agreed that the measures imposed on greece won't work. In 2009. You do know that right?

It's all in the wikie leaks go read them. The vertically challenged hell on wheels even had a plan to swift greece to the brics.

brits intecepted the comm, informed D.C. uncle sam stepped in horrified by the impending geopolitical shift, and the new unsustainable crazy path was chosen.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 10:59:23
https://twitter.com/Schuldensuehner/status/619452510156255232/photo/1

look at that chart. europe in the clunches of neoliberal zombies bringing about a new age of financial dark ages where the middle ages will look like the golden age of plato


novus ordo seclorum delenda est (from the beach)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 11:21:34
"The ECB even withheld illegally bond payments due to greece"

I very much doubt that. Why should the ECB make bond payments to Greece? Greece is holding ECB issued bonds?

As for the debt, you already got a debt relief and a restructuring. Essentially, Greece should pay 20% interest on the market. The other euro countries are shifting about 20-30 billion worth of interest relief to Greece every year. And you still do not get your act together.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 11:42:08
I could look it up but I can't be bothered now.
There is no relief btw just a ressufling of debts to save off german and french banks mostly.
The auterity imposed is crippling making any hope of repayment on a anyway unrepayable debt only even more impossible. BUT on the same time inflicting widespread poverty.

As for the baltics and their antic haircuts that look like a mop, their insolence to human decency will be repayed when mother russia will tenderly re-acquire them in her loving bossom.
(such insolence is to be expected by a large part from some of the others, their history backs it up, the baltics only now enter the world stage)

they live in third world situation though, the immideiate result of having imlempented in full the memorandum (they just don't know any better) so here's praying that russia will be tender when saving them again

TCO
10-07-2015, 12:42:23
Euros totally folded. More cash for promises. Hope you like that transaction, Roland. And the Greeks even feel entitled. Like other people's money belongs to them.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 12:50:27
fooker
how's youre hareem girl doing? :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNUsOaB5V2c

paiktis
10-07-2015, 12:55:53
And roland can't be happy for the deal. He's not a sadist. He just justice-defers his guilt to others to feel better. It's called prevarication.
Greeks are not entitled. Just sane.

TCO
10-07-2015, 12:59:27
Hey man. How are you?

Turkina went back to her husband and had a baby. Still a cutie. Talked with her a little when I had a consulting gig at her company.

TCO
10-07-2015, 13:01:56
I just did a gig in oil. (midstream, no issues from the price drop). Pretty cool stuff and amazing the growth in the US. Huge changes. Lot of heavy metal going into the ground.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 13:11:51
Euros totally folded.

That remains to be seen. There is no deal yet, and the ESM procedure is not as simple as the former EFSF.

paiktis
10-07-2015, 13:16:56
Nice :)
I will be going to the islands for 3 weeks (the SO's parents have a house there) and I got an alarm system for my house :/ (seeing as the banks don't work)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 13:43:52
Reduced-VAT island?

Koshko
10-07-2015, 19:05:26
So, is your Greece Illinois or Puerto Rico?

Btw, I suspect the banks are functioning in Illinois? They could function in Greece, too, if they were not hopelessly intertwined with the bancrupt government.

The banks won't be a problem. Companies moving out of Illinois into other states may be a problem though.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-07-2015, 19:20:59
http://mein.salzburg.com/blog/wizany/assets_c/2015/07/Spaete%20Einsicht-thumb-1024xauto-176985.jpg

The Mad Monk
10-07-2015, 21:27:29
"Perhaps we had the thing not even to bring in here"?

The Mad Monk
10-07-2015, 21:33:41
So I was curious if the full page would bring up something different, so I put the above into it, forgetting that I still had the English version in the buffer; the page was still set to Russian, and helpfully asked, "did you mean (something in cyrillic)?" I always find this sort of thing helpful, so I clicked on the link and found pernaps ve over Tae tning music Even then the bring John Nere...

So much for that.

BTW, Paiktis, did you know you can thank posts even when banned? Ben does it all the time. :)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
11-07-2015, 07:45:50
"Perhaps we had the thing not even to bring in here"?

Exactly.

Maybe it would have been better not to bring it in....

TCO
11-07-2015, 13:20:30
Exactly.

Maybe it would have been better not to bring it in....

So, whatcha gonna do now, boy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C11MzbEcHlw

C.G.B. Spender
11-07-2015, 13:52:34
There's always nukes

MDA
11-07-2015, 15:39:58
I've got a good friend from Chicago, I was being a snarky bastard.


edit: :bash:

TCO
12-07-2015, 01:32:27
Let's say the Euros themselves deadlock and half the group wants to pay more cash for promises and the other half just doesn't want to spend any more cash. Could the Euro fracture? Could we have a group decide to go out on its own? The very concept a little shows the tenuousness of the shared currency. Any currency can have issues. But at least it is identified with a sovereign, with a country with an army and such. The euro is some sort of committee I guess that manages it. It's a different sort of backing with some potential weak points.

(There may be advantages of the committee as well, e.g. deadlocks that avoid stupid actions.)

TCO
12-07-2015, 01:33:38
It is way more convenient though. Love being able to cross borders at will (after getting in) and not have to change money every time you drive a couple hours.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
12-07-2015, 17:09:27
No "group" will leave the euro just because of Greece. Legally it is a qualified majority required, practically some kind of compromise.

TCO
12-07-2015, 18:37:47
unless you stop sending cash, to include bank supports, it just ends up being more cash for promises. There is not sufficient time for greece to show real changes. even legislation could be waived later. theres not enough time for selling assets and tghey won't get high pricesmgiven the risk of nationalization. even territory is probably unenforceable...are you really up for the gaggle of committeemenforcing terriotry claimes by force if needed?

TCO
12-07-2015, 18:42:47
the stuff about kicking out of the euro is a side show. sure who wants them having a vote and going to meetings if they are welshing all the time. but it's really not as bottom line as are you going to send cash or cut the cord.

same with the default. it's also irrelevNT. greeks will never pay it and both sides know that. it's just abut the fiction and leverage for negotiations and moral hazard for others and blablbla. But what really matters to the Greeks is keeping cash coing in and what maters to Euros is if they pay it or lety Greece implode.

TCO
12-07-2015, 18:46:51
Man i bet the Brits are glad they are out of that mess.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
12-07-2015, 19:39:29
We'll see what will get worked out. But it's clear that even the french and italians are seriously pissed about the greek antics, while they fear a Grexit...

Also: It seems Tsipras has lost his majority, so an opposition party may join his government.

TCO
12-07-2015, 21:28:33
Getting Tsiprias to grovel or lose power would be just another rationale for more Euro cash for promises, more group grope compromise crap, where you are soft but talk hard. Need to pull the tit out of the mouth. Let the banks crash. This is not a reclaimable debtor. No. More. Cash.

I still think a referendum with the European people on "cash for Greek promises" would be very, very revealing and give you the cover you need.

The Greek people can default. They have done it before. They will do it. Then the rest is up to them. They will either have to cut back on social services or start taxing all the vacation home island people or some combo. It's not your concern, though. It would probably be better for them than getting scolded and dragged by other countries into better policies. But even if not, even if the people suffer over what you would have done for them...it's not your country. It's theirs.

And about the debts held by EU institutions and IMF...that was never going to get paid back. Better off facing it now. Not sending more good money after bad. That's been going on for 5 years now!

The Mad Monk
13-07-2015, 07:35:30
http://satwcomic.com/art/it-s-all-greek-to-me.png

In English there is the phrase "That's Greek to me" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me) but what phrase do other countries use? (http://satwcomic.com/art/alt/it-s-all-greek-to-me-art.png)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-07-2015, 10:37:20
For some odd reason, we use either "spanish" or "train station".

paiktis
13-07-2015, 10:41:04
R.I.P. EU

#thisisacoup

paiktis
13-07-2015, 10:51:07
And I don't say it.
He's saying it

Un gouvernement allemand est en train de détruire l'Europe" pour la troisième fois de l'Histoire

http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/video/melenchon-un-gouvernement-allemand-est-en-train-de-detruire-l-europe-pour-la-troisieme-fois-de-l-histoire-584924.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LMEvmVplxY

BTW pro Greece = France, Italy, Belgium, AUSTRIA, Cyprus (and others I don't remember)

Against Greece the golden dawn of finland :lol: (25% of power in finland), neoliberal hitler (oops)


Still, they've won (in destroying Europe).

Fistandantilus
13-07-2015, 11:01:05
BTW pro Greece = Italy

:hmm:

paiktis
13-07-2015, 11:02:17
:violin:

paiktis
13-07-2015, 11:10:56
I can't upload pics dammit.

The continuation of this

https://www.google.gr/search?q=greece+in+2014+jodi&biw=1024&bih=639&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=cpyjVdKUMYausAGT2r-gCQ&ved=0CB8QsAQ#imgrc=9sjZyziZzZbbDM%3A


is what they agreed on :lol:

And they think people will just accept it :lol:

paiktis
13-07-2015, 11:15:16
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJyKYlUUEAE8YBv.jpg:large

My trust in democracy has been shaken.
We must renegotiate your way of politics.

paiktis
13-07-2015, 11:18:46
ah. this way it works

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJxabivUcAAuEpc.jpg:large

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11665420_425260737658867_2065961356335714254_n.jpg ?oh=6f3d03456ca74ce493206b012bfce78c&oe=56580D13

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-07-2015, 12:19:50
Cool, a Miele Tank!

Serious question: #thisisacoup

How so? Simply say oxi, and the whole deal is gone.

Of course, for the leftists rain and gravity may constitute coups, too....

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-07-2015, 12:21:06
:hmm:

Indeed.

There were two positions: Germany and co - Fuck Greece.
France, Italy and co: Just fuck Tsipras and his fellow clowns.

paiktis
13-07-2015, 12:53:06
Your way is not the laws of physics or nature.
It's a disaterous policy geometrically designed to end the EU (in one year Greece will not be a member, nor Italy) and inflicts huge catastrophy on its members.

The way to do it is not tanks but banks. You simply shut them off, when one speaks about the need to redesign the system in a way that will not destroy countries.

And there are two positions: keep greece in the euro at all costs because we're the next ones to get fucked
or force a grexit because... reasons. (we will be stronger amputated. nothing will happen and assorted phantasies)

Ironically both have the same outcome. The demise of democracy and as immediate effect, the EU.

Italy France and co were adamant against a grexit from the beggining. Belgium, Austria changed their shirts later on.

TCO
13-07-2015, 13:10:08
3rd bailout. That is dumb. More good money following bad. Doesn't matter what a "tough deal" you got. Just that you are sending more cash away.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-07-2015, 13:13:42
"The way to do it is not tanks but banks. You simply shut them off"

Wrong again. The greek banks shut themselves off, the ECB has already given them 90 billion € on very questionable colateral.

But that's the same mantra again: You want loans, and whine that they come with conditions attached. If you do not get extra loans, you whine about blackmail. You throw a tantrum and dig yourselves deep into shit. Then you come around, for more loans.

The only ones inflicting catastrophy on Greece are the Greeks.