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paiktis
20-06-2013, 18:18:08
Outside from where I work there is a "brownie". That's not a cookie it's an affectionate name given to somone from pakistan, bagladesh etc. (it's not racist either).

There was this guy always standing outside of my job, all day long. He was selling flowers to passing cars.
Every day when I went in and everytime I left the job, I simply smiled at him and waived.

That's all.
Why?
Because he seemed like a nice guy.

Now get this, that's what happened today.

I left the job and waived at him but this time it was like he wanted to speak.

He said are you ok?

I said yeah you know trying like everybody, and you?

He says I'm leaving tomorrow, going back home

I said where are you from?

He says bagladesh.

I say cool, are there beaches nearby where you live to go for a swim?

He said yes and then he said i have to go, we have a small shop, clothes.

Then I said, you're leaving for good or just for the summer?

He says for good, not just summer

I make the gesture (italians should know it) where you rub your thumb with your index finger.
That means: is it a money issue?

He says, yes, money and also people you know are not speaking nice to me etc

I said, yeah... I see, well this bad situation i think will go on for 5 or 10 years. maybe it's better than you are leaving.. it's really hard for eveyone

then he extends his hand snd shakes mine and says thank you.


Now that was touching. All I did was waive and say hello to him everyday.

That meant a lot to him to stop me when he was leaving for ever and shake my hand and tell me thank you.

I was really touched and humbled. I wish him the best. I think he's a smart devil and he will do good wherever he goes

Funko
21-06-2013, 08:08:23
(it's not racist either).

Oh yes it absolutely is.

And it's sad that he has to leave in part because of the racism.

paiktis
21-06-2013, 08:30:36
Can one use such a word but not in racist intend?
Or is the use of the word condemning?
I think it's the intention that counts.
On the sad part I agree

Funko
21-06-2013, 09:56:49
How the words are received by the person that's being described is the important thing. How they are intended is really irrelevant.

And you can't assume you'll get an honest answer about how someone might feel about the term if challenged. Imagine someone asking their servant "you don't mind if I call you a N***er do you?" Are they going to get an honest answer?

At the end of the day it's a generic term to categorise a variety of different people based purely on their skin colour. I'm sure at some point there would have been people in the states using the N word without intending offence, but it doesn't mean it isn't an offensive term.

Describing generically people with brown skin as 'brownies' would certainly be considered completely unacceptable in the UK.

paiktis
21-06-2013, 10:00:36
I'll be completely honest, I used that word to make a "clever" (stupid) punt and I used a term I heard in english films.
In greek the word doesnt exist but there are other words that are similar. I admit I don't have a clear knowledge of what exact meaning is associated with every exact word (especially if it's slang) in other cultures
Thanks for clarifying.

Funko
21-06-2013, 10:06:30
Cool. :beer:

Venom
24-06-2013, 15:19:07
I bet the Greek equivalent of the word "nigger" is paiktis.

mr_B
24-06-2013, 15:41:13
:lol:

Venom
24-06-2013, 17:04:03
That might be one of the worst things I've ever said, and that's saying something.

I'm so proud.

zmama
24-06-2013, 17:11:31
You're just being bad on purpose. I know you just love those spankings!

paiktis
24-06-2013, 19:24:11
paiktis means player
nigger is arapis.

Why would it be funny though if paiktis meant nigger? :drekkus:

MoSe
26-06-2013, 12:22:14
hhhmmmmm.... in a sort of "Dantesque contrappasso"?
;) :cute:

MoSe
26-06-2013, 12:41:52
How the words are received by the person that's being described is the important thing. How they are intended is really irrelevant.

in an ideal world that's of course true

in practical life it's also true that despite categorization in general can be associated with and/or easily leads to discrimination, nevertheless it can be an effective way for a correct contextualization, not meaning that by the use of the term in itself you endorse that discrimination, but just that you acknowledge that de-facto such discrimination exists...

oh well, maybe the education I got from the culture and the country I was raised in didn't make me sensible enough about the issue of racism

can't recall if it was a joke, a urban legned or actually happened (something about the referee Collina maybe?), but if bald people suddenly resent at being called bald and tell you that you must call them "differently combed", I'm sorry but if I have to describe a bald guy I'll keep using the word "bald", and if he gets offended too bad but it's just his problem

MoSe
26-06-2013, 13:04:02
for instance, reading the OP I only raised half-a-brow at the use ot the term brownie, but

He says bagladesh.
I say cool, are there beaches nearby where you live to go for a swim?


I'd never had dared or imagined to reply him that way, except if I intended to outright insult the guy

:eek:

an immigrant from one of the poorest countries in the world?
I'd have expected a reply such as:
"I can barely eke out a living, having a beach to go for a swim is the least of my concerns. And anyway, I don't live near a beach, but with the sweeping floods always submerging my country, it's the waters coming at my place and I get to do plenty of swimming just to stay afloat"

hey, it also got a wiki entry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floods_in_Bangladesh
Each year in Bangladesh about 26,000 km2, (around 18%) of the country is flooded, killing over 5,000 people and destroying 7 million homes. During severe floods the affected area may exceed 75% of the country, [...] The floods have caused devastation in Bangladesh throughout history

oh well, just different sensibilities

nice and sad story tho
___

in my callousness, I was actually expecting something like:

an immigrant selling flowers to passing cars, got run over and died
the very same flowers he was selling fell down and spread all above his dead body, in a sort of grim and poetic tribute to the ending of his existence in a foreign country, where his attempt to bring tiny moments of beauty was met with indifference, if not irritation...

:o

Funko
26-06-2013, 13:08:35
:lol: That aspect (the beaches/flooding) did cross my mind too.

Funko
26-06-2013, 13:15:22
in an ideal world that's of course true

in practical life it's also true that despite categorization in general can be associated with and/or easily leads to discrimination, nevertheless it can be an effective way for a correct contextualization, not meaning that by the use of the term in itself you endorse that discrimination, but just that you acknowledge that de-facto such discrimination exists...

oh well, maybe the education I got from the culture and the country I was raised in didn't make me sensible enough about the issue of racism

can't recall if it was a joke, a urban legned or actually happened (something about the referee Collina maybe?), but if bald people suddenly resent at being called bald and tell you that you must call them "differently combed", I'm sorry but if I have to describe a bald guy I'll keep using the word "bald", and if he gets offended too bad but it's just his problem

The question to ask yourself is - why is the contextualisation necessary?

Why is it relevant to the story or conversation if the person is of a certain skin tone, gender or sexuality? Because we or our listener have certain expectations about that group?

Of course you can go to the extreme such as the sketch some comedy team did here about a person at a party desperately trying to point out one of the other guests, the only black guy in the room, without mentioning his skin colour.

MoSe
26-06-2013, 13:31:38
very often the contextualisation is indeed unnecessarily added

Should I for instance report an incident I might have witnessed about a beggar at a traffic light, his origin might well be irrelevant.
Or, if he was a gipsy beggar, and in town there had just been strife and protests from the population vexed by a wave of thefts and robberies occurred in houses nearby overflowing gipsy trailer parks in the outskirts, the contextualisation is very relevant and needed. And forgive me if I use the easy term gipsy instead of "roaming migrant of Rom origin" or whatever, regardless whether I collaterally actually have a discriminatory feeling against gipsies as such, or none at all instead

MoSe
26-06-2013, 13:43:04
can't recall if it was a joke, a urban legned or actually happened (something about the referee Collina maybe?)


here :D

http://sport.repubblica.it/news/sport/calcio-collina-basta-con-ironia-su-arbitri/87086
E soprattutto mi sento offeso personalmente dalle battute sull'alopecia
"Above all, I feel personally offended by jokes about alopecia"

Funko
26-06-2013, 13:50:59
So essentially "a beggar did something bad" is the story. The added context of "and it was a gypsy" is in the story to help reinforce the stereotype of the the thieving gypsy.

It is very probable that the increase in crime and the traveller encampment are not coincidental, but it doesn't follow that all of that community are engaged in criminal behaviour. Essentially you are saying - here is another anecdote that makes us feel better about the fact we are thinking about and treating this entire community as if they are criminals.

If you saw an Italian beggar in the same incident you wouldn't raise the incident as further evidence that the Italians are notoriously antisocial criminals.

"I saw this beggar at the traffic lights - he did this and this!!! And of course, he was one of those Italians"

Funko
26-06-2013, 13:55:23
Is it likely that any gypsy in that town is likely to be treated differently if accused of a crime than if it's an Italian resident of the town? The burden of proof should be the same.

And it's a downward spiral where negative perception and treatment breeds anti-social feelings and behaviour. So by continuing to treat the whole community as a single problem entity, rather than each individual on their merits we're just extending the cycle to each generation.

Funko
26-06-2013, 13:58:30
Also anecdotal evidence about crime rates can be misleading.

One can have the situation where a problem group is blamed for all crime. Presumably all break ins and thefts will now be blamed on the gypsies regardless of whether it was actually them or not.

paiktis
26-06-2013, 16:55:17
hhhmmmmm.... in a sort of "Dantesque contrappasso"?
;) :cute:

so nice explanation :D

paiktis
26-06-2013, 17:24:47
BTW I admit I didnt know about the flooding in bagladesh (its not really reported every year that there are 5000 deaths from floods but maybe there are as many from gun violence somwhere else). Having said that swiming is not a privilege of the rich nor do you have to eat lobster to take a dive.
Swimming will invigorate the life of both the poor and the rich and you only need a bathing suit for it!!!!!! (someplaces not even that. although there's nothing scarier than a german whale pretending to be aphrodite as she bounces her unbelievable fat in ways that would seem graceful to a loving hipopotamus before she creates a tidal wave in the tormented aegean)

MDA
26-06-2013, 17:34:31
Stupid fat Germans. Schultz!

paiktis
26-06-2013, 17:35:03
and lest we forget,
nazis

paiktis
26-06-2013, 19:39:04
in my callousness, I was actually expecting something like:

an immigrant selling flowers to passing cars, got run over and died
the very same flowers he was selling fell down and spread all above his dead body, in a sort of grim and poetic tribute to the ending of his existence in a foreign country, where his attempt to bring tiny moments of beauty was met with indifference, if not irritation...

:o

"his attempt to bring tiny moments of beauty...." :lol:

that would be the end of the story if the bagladeshi guy was gay or you were gay :lol: (or should i say "sensitive")

paiktis
26-06-2013, 19:41:34
you berave me about asking the guy if he went for a swim (it's not GOLF and it's not cricket and it's not tennis) but you know nothing (as I do ) about everyday life in bagladesh.
Bringing tiny moments of beauty? :lol: the guy was trying to scrap a living propably trying to pay off the huge sum he paid to the slave hoarders to bring him to greece in order not to have his body bruised by the beatingor worse, probably by getting the flowers from the cemetary or something.

tiny moments of beauty... :D
little sensitive soul mose :D

MDA
26-06-2013, 20:13:34
all Greek immigrants are smuggled in by slavers, everyone knows that

sorry, I meant human traffickers

MoSe
27-06-2013, 07:17:49
So essentially "a beggar did something bad" is the story. The added context of "and it was a gypsy" is in the story to help reinforce the stereotype of the the thieving gypsy.

It is very probable that the increase in crime and the traveller encampment are not coincidental, but it doesn't follow that all of that community are engaged in criminal behaviour. Essentially you are saying - here is another anecdote that makes us feel better about the fact we are thinking about and treating this entire community as if they are criminals.

If you saw an Italian beggar in the same incident you wouldn't raise the incident as further evidence that the Italians are notoriously antisocial criminals.

"I saw this beggar at the traffic lights - he did this and this!!! And of course, he was one of those Italians"

LOL, I actually intended something like:

"a beggar at a traffic lights got assaulted by an angry driver"
"a gipsy beggar at a traffic lights got assaulted by an angry driver"

I know "it doesn't follow that all of that community are engaged in criminal behaviour"
adding that the beggar was gipsy, could be read as racism by the reporter ("we are fed up by all those gipsy criminals, now they also beg at crossings, he well deserved a beating just because"), OR could put in context that the driver anger was sparked by mere prejudice, and not by the beggar's behavior ("it's sad to report that the feeling that the entire gipsy community are criminals got hold in our town population, and that brings to hostility out of mere prejudice. The driver wouldn't have probably assaulted the beggar if he hadn't been a gipsy beggar")

Funko
27-06-2013, 08:48:55
LOL, I actually intended something like:

"a beggar at a traffic lights got assaulted by an angry driver"
"a gipsy beggar at a traffic lights got assaulted by an angry driver"




:lol: :beer:

paiktis
27-06-2013, 19:21:55
a man bitten by a dog is not news
a dog bitten by a man is news.

in pluralism media there is bound to be different shades of reporting and IMO that's good.
The only thing stopping this would be legislation but it's a fine balance between pushing an antiracist attitude and protecting freedom of speech.

If however one wants to curb racist views he could focus on the main big tv stations. unfortunately those are the "stance modifiers" for the critical masses.

then again in communications science media comes a long way behind other things in forming world views.

for example if let's say there is a good albanian family, law abiding and polite living next door and the media bombards you with some mantra about criminal albanians, your view would be affected much more by your immidiate reality than by the mainstream media.

In order of effect on the formation of world views the modifying/creating factors go something like this
1. family 2. friends. 3. educational system 4. 5. 6. and only 7th is actually the media/tv/films