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paiktis
09-06-2013, 18:09:23
I like watching bbc since it's free and it has better coverage (albeit heavily tainted, as most do) of world events.
I just saw a documentary about the syrian refugee crisis and the flood of immigrants in greece. a country of 10 million greece has already 2 million immigrants and the number is rising.
(anyone still asks why there's anti-immigration sentiment?)
city neighborhoods are transformed into jungles. It's not the crisis, it's the illegal immigrants.
You don't see it, you're a fool. You're a fool? You won't be elected.

The documentary was ok.
What pissed me off was seeing the reporter (who spoke like she had an articulation problem) barging into a coastal guard outpost and saying in very strict voice, like she was the commander there., what are you going to do about the 40 immigrants out on the hardbor.

1st who the FUCK do you think you are barging in with your racist ways ans speaking in that tone.

I should be the coastal gaurd. He was patient and polite, I'd have fucked that bitch up.

I would hand her the phone.
She would be surprised.
I would say: you're british right? Why don't you call your gov and ask them to fly a plane here so you can provide for them in your country?

NOW GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY OFFICE BITCH


and case closed.

paiktis
09-06-2013, 18:20:02
which, I suppose is a perfectly good reason for me not to be a coastal guard.
I don't bow down to scummy racist behavior and I don't follow "official lines".

paiktis
09-06-2013, 18:22:28
The hypocrisy of the so called "partners" is staggering.
90% of EU immigration comes to greece.
Lisbon ii treaty dictates that the first country an illegal immigrant comes to, it's in this country that he will be pushed back if he travles in another EU country from there.
Freaking turned this country into a misery storage house.
At least other channels have the decency not to be so hypocritical. But there's no limits to the bbc!
I feel and ALL feel for syrian refugees. first the west should stop turning this country into mashed patotoes.
If it instists the immigration burdens should be devided equally. Why is libson II STILL in effect?
Let the borders open, let those poor people go to france and the UK and germany where they want to be. FREEDOM!
But it's easier to do a painless bbc documentary. Fucking hypocritical con artists

paiktis
09-06-2013, 18:33:44
not all channels were so superficial though.
I remember a great documentary from belgian television rtbf. He followed a black guy from his war torn region to belgium where he applied for asylum after all. He passed through greece (shitting bricks as he approached the airport. he shouldnt. he should be free to go) after having stayed a bit here.

Ok the documentary made belgium look like the promised land but thoughout the journeys of that unfortunate man, the reporter clearly outlined all aspects of the problem, giving a very spherical view of what went on.

With a 27% uneployment rate people still come here. Ok, here they maybe have more chances to stay alive. I understand they dont care about unemployment rates. But if lisbon ii didnt exist, they could go to richer countries, with less unemployment.

Funko
10-06-2013, 07:51:47
Went to see if there was any evidence to back that up. Looks to me like your immigration is bang in the middle of EU countries. Pretty typical really.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Immigrants,_2011_(per_1_000_i nhabitants).png&filetimestamp=20130315142629

http://www.indexmundi.com/map/?v=27&r=eu&l=en

Funko
10-06-2013, 07:52:51
so ~ 10/1000 with a net increase of 2-3/1000 a year.

Probably concentrated in cities, as in most countries.

MOBIUS
10-06-2013, 11:54:35
:lol: at Piaktis claiming the BBC is racist after claiming Greek cities are turning into jungles...

Interesting how the figures make Italy look pretty racist too.

paiktis
10-06-2013, 21:30:18
Funko I don't think those figures include illegal immigrants. It also seems odd that Greece has more immigrants than the UK or France or Germany, even based on that chart

Mobius, the dick! (suck it)
I'm not saying we have black muslim guys chopping off our military's men heads at broad daylight, but it's still a jungle at many places

Cheshire Cat
11-06-2013, 12:34:54
It also seems odd that Greece has more immigrants than the UK or France or Germany, even based on that chart


thoughts:

1st chart
that's immigrants 2011, per 1k inhab
the chart says that in 2011 a greater percentage entered Greece than UK/F/D
not that there are more total immigrants in Greece, and/or in absolute value

the article: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics

table 1: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Immigration,_EU-27,_2009-2011.png&filetimestamp=20130325145256
shows absolute values - UK, Germay and France are much higer than Greece
also, it shows for instance that out of 110k 2011 Greece "immigrants", 60k (more than half) were "returning nationals" - Funko's linked chart reported probably "total" 2011 immigrants % - if we counted only "foreign" 2011 immigrants %, Greece rate would probably be even lower in the ranking

another distinction to be made is between foreigners living in a country, and foreign-born who later acquired citizenship

and of course besides the % of immigrants who entered in a given year, what gives you the feeling should be rather the total % of foreigners, regardless the year they entered
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Foreign_and_foreign-born_population_by_group_of_citizenship_and_countr y_of_birth,_1_January_2012.png&filetimestamp=20130315154514
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Share_of_foreigners_in_the_re sident_population,_1_January_2012,(%25).png&filetimestamp=20130325101452
you can see that even in %, Greece foreign-born are comparable with or lower than those of D/UK/F - the latter 2 having much lower foreigners %, as a great share acquired citizenship

---

err... what was your point again?
:D

Cheshire Cat
11-06-2013, 12:38:21
a Net migration rate bar chart (http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=27), is the difference between the number of persons entering and leaving a bar
:beer:

Funko
11-06-2013, 12:49:56
I started typing out a response like CC's but I was too lazy to do it and didn't really care anyway. I only looked for my own curiosity.

Laziness paid off. :beer:

MOBIUS
11-06-2013, 13:14:04
Pity we don't have a Qatari poster to set the record straight about how their little desert island is being turned into a jungle of immigrants...:(

Funko
11-06-2013, 13:30:00
Indeed.

mr_B
11-06-2013, 14:11:07
inderdeed you fewl

Funko
11-06-2013, 14:11:35
inderdinderdeed

Or how they feel on the Costa del Sol!

zmama
11-06-2013, 14:15:58
amorous

MOBIUS
11-06-2013, 15:35:36
Then there's the fact that the UK's population is almost six times as much as Greece's and we're not even twice the size!

So we have far greater total numbers of immigrants and a far greater immigrant population density, so FOK U!:love:

I preferred it when you hated the Germans instead, it's er, I dunno, a better kind of racism...!?:drekkus:

zmama
11-06-2013, 15:39:54
tsk tsk don't confuse Paiktis with FACT!

Cheshire Cat
11-06-2013, 15:46:06
hhhmmmm....

suddenly I consider the idea that when paiktis chose his AE name, he intended to mean something like Pike This! , and it came out paiktis....

:cute:

MDA
11-06-2013, 16:07:30
He was trying to type Keith while drunk.

MOBIUS
12-06-2013, 09:37:53
Again, your infinite wisdom knows no bounds!

Funko
12-06-2013, 12:24:50
Ironically Keith was trying to type Kevin whilst drunk

zmama
12-06-2013, 14:19:04
That sounds dirty

MDA
12-06-2013, 14:22:24
Kevin was O positive.

paiktis
12-06-2013, 19:35:03
Erm...

I didn't bother to read it.
I only have a simple question. Answer it chesire cat if you can.

Based on the chart Funko gave, on PERCENTAGE, the number of immigrants is bigger in Greece (and Spain) than in UK, or Germany, or France.

Yes or no?

What good is it if in a population of 60 mil you have MORE immigrants if by percentage in a population of 10 you have less?

paiktis
12-06-2013, 19:35:57
You complicate the issue without refuting at all what I said.
Am I wrong?

paiktis
12-06-2013, 19:36:25
(btw love how the choir is so quick to jump at me :D)

paiktis
12-06-2013, 19:38:02
Then there's the fact that the UK's population is almost six times as much as Greece's and we're not even twice the size!

So we have far greater total numbers of immigrants and a far greater immigrant population density, so FOK U!:love:

I preferred it when you hated the Germans instead, it's er, I dunno, a better kind of racism...!?:drekkus:

Lol your stance and most here is the quantressential racism type.
Lazy, hariy and tottally in their fault if they have imploded.
In the '40s you'd propably have boyed for the extermination of the jewish loan sharks... ts... ts... ts...
(I do understand it comes out of stupidity and propaganda though. Not intention or malice)

paiktis
12-06-2013, 19:41:52
Erm...

I didn't bother to read it.
I only have a simple question. Answer it chesire cat if you can.

Based on the chart Funko gave, on PERCENTAGE, the number of immigrants is bigger in Greece (and Spain) than in UK, or Germany, or France.

Yes or no?

What good is it if in a population of 60 mil you have MORE immigrants if by percentage in a population of 10 you have less?

And chesire cat, after you have answered that one simple question, do you then have a responce about undocumented immigrants as well?


These two in correlation simply underline my point: that Greece has more immigrans (on percentage since that's the only stat that counts) than the UK, France or Germany and that the number can be dramatically higher if we take into account undocumented immigrants for which there is simply no trsustworthy chart. Unless you have one.

paiktis
12-06-2013, 19:46:44
And mobi DICK, in your assertion that the UK is not even twice the size of Greece, did you also count greek sea square meters in that measurement?
Something tells me you did. I might be wrong but still wouldn't change much.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-06-2013, 09:12:41
UK 243.610 kmē
Greece 131.957 kmē

Giving a ratio of about 1.85:1

Funko
13-06-2013, 09:27:02
Erm...

I didn't bother to read it.
I only have a simple question. Answer it chesire cat if you can.

Based on the chart Funko gave, on PERCENTAGE, the number of immigrants is bigger in Greece (and Spain) than in UK, or Germany, or France.

Yes or no?

What good is it if in a population of 60 mil you have MORE immigrants if by percentage in a population of 10 you have less?

No.

The percentage is slightly higher for Greece but not much which means as we have 6 times the population we'll be taking numerically far higher numbers of immigrants than you are.

paiktis
13-06-2013, 13:22:33
So it's a yes.
By percentage the number of immigrants IS bigger.
I can't see why we don't communicate here.

You have ten people. 7 of them are immigrants. the percentage is higher.
You have 100 people. 20 of them are immigrants, the percentage is lower.

in which case are there more immigrants? in the second.
in which case is the strain larger? in the first.

again, not adding undocumented immigrants that since Greece IS the gateway to the EU are simply extravagantely more and are not shown anywhere. Unless someone has some more data.

Funko
13-06-2013, 13:31:17
Ok that's fine - what you said was imprecise, we all read it to mean the opposite.

paiktis
13-06-2013, 13:39:48
Ok sorry for that. I sometimes translate directly from greek and the result in english comes out incomprehencible :/

zmama
13-06-2013, 14:07:29
incomprehensible*

Just say fucked up! :D

paiktis
13-06-2013, 14:19:01
"These two in correlation simply underline my point: that Greece has more immigrans (on percentage since that's the only stat that counts) "


I think that was quite clear. I just admitted to being in error so as not to alienate Funko (and the choire ) :D

Funko
13-06-2013, 16:31:20
I replied to the post before that. I guess I missed that one/lost the will to carry on reading.

Cheshire Cat
14-06-2013, 07:31:00
And chesire cat, after you have answered that one simple question, do you then have a responce about undocumented immigrants as well?

who? me? the question was to me?
:cute:

I was just replying on impulse to clarify a point about stats, after having cursorily parsed the thread
:D

Reading your statement
"It also seems odd that Greece has more immigrants than the UK or France or Germany, even based on that chart"
I understood you did NOT have the feeling that Greece has more immigrants, DESPITE the chart said so.

so I explained: the chart said Greece had more people entering in 2011 in percentage, even if you had less in absolute value. And more than half of that figure were Greeks returning home.

I do agree that the % is important to represent the strain natives have to suffer.
It is also true that if we speak of migratory fluxes, the vast majority goes elsewhere: if you look at it from the outside, only few decide to go to Greece. Of course considering that Greek population is relatively low, even a low migratory flux can put a significant strain in % to the locals.
___
Further on:
Funko's linked chart gave 2011 fluxes
So I pointed out that if you wanted to talk about the immigrants you HAVE in a country, you shouldn't argue a chart about those who just entered in 2011, but look at a chart giving the Total foreigners.

summarising the one I linked, overlooking too small countries
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php?title=File:Foreign_and_foreign-born_population_by_group_of_citizenship_and_countr y_of_birth,_1_January_2012.png&filetimestamp=20130315154514

Foreign F-born
Switz 22.8 25.6
Spain 12.0 14.2
Austria 11.2 15.8
Belgium 11.0 15.3
Ireland 10.6 15.0
Germany 9.1 12.1
Greece 8.6 11.2
Italy 7.9 9.0
UK 7.6 12.1*
Sweden 6.8 15.0*
Denmark 6.4 9.5
France 5.9 11.3*
Netherl 4.2 11.4*
Portugl 4.2 8.1
Czech 4.0 3.7
Finland 3.4 4.8


as you can see, even in % Greece has less than Germany
and if we look at foreign-born (counting also those who later acquired citizenship) you have less than UK, Sweden, France or Netherlands
___
And anyway.
I didn't reply to your illegal immigrants question because:
- I wasn't arguing with you, I got just enticed by a point about stats
- I might even agree with you on that issue, but of course it's harder to get actual data about illegal immigrants

I even commented myself in the end "what was your point again?" 'cuz I got carried away with theory and didn't even care to pay attention to your actual claim or position.
Now that you solicit me to it, I still don't get it.
Are you complaining Greece has too many immigrants? then why did you question Funko's chart which was reinforcing your point???
:clueless:

Cheshire Cat
14-06-2013, 07:35:49
maybe I'd better put it simplier


I only have a simple question. Answer it chesire cat if you can.

Based on the chart Funko gave, on PERCENTAGE, the number of immigrants is bigger in Greece (and Spain) than in UK, or Germany, or France.

Yes or no?


Yes I can.

NO

Based on the chart Funko gave, on PERCENTAGE, the number of immigrants who entered IN 2011, including Returning NATIONALS, is bigger in Greece (and Spain) than in UK, or Germany, or France.

As fot the TOTAL number of immigrants (as of Jan 2012), see the post above

zmama
14-06-2013, 14:56:20
Kids kids, let's get all happy and have a sing-a-long!

MDA
14-06-2013, 16:21:58
I was enjoying Greek tragedy/comedy!

zmama
14-06-2013, 16:24:10
"London Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down...my fair lady"

paiktis
14-06-2013, 21:34:18
chesire cat i must admire your enthousiasm (or is it complulsion? :D)

However, again, you did not answer but just provided data after data.

You remind me of an old politician who said that "the numbers(statistics) are proliferating, the people are suffering"

Again, based on the chart funko gave, would you say that on percentage immigrants are more (by %) or fewer than the countries I mentioned.

Are you talking about merely 2011?????

I WANT to take you seriously.
So provide a chart that encapsulates the % of immigration TODAY.

Now I'm funny like that, I thought Funko already did....


(the choir keeps on singing :D reminds me of dr strangelove when he yelled yeeeahhhooowww when dropping the bomb :D)

(I also have to laugh (but a little bit so as not to vex you) that there were returning greeks in Greece in 2011:D)

Cheshire Cat
17-06-2013, 15:26:23
However, again, you did not answer but just provided data after data.
that's what I like doing
I have not the presumption to draw conclusions, I let the task to others.
As long as others don't draw wrong conclusions because of missing or incorrect data, I've fulfilled my mission
If they then draw wrong (or just different) conclusions based on correct data, or because they deliberatley ignore the correct data, or because they have an agenda that makes them deliberately twist the data for their own purposes, that's fine with me



Again, based on the chart funko gave, would you say that on percentage immigrants are more (by %) or fewer than the countries I mentioned.

Are you talking about merely 2011?????


No it's not me: it's the chart Funko gave which is indeed talking about merely 2001.
I think it's the 3rd time I'm pointing this out
Surely you're just tring to wind me up (to no avail) cu'z you can't be that thick



I WANT to take you seriously.

then maybe try to READ my posts!
:lol:


So provide a chart that encapsulates the % of immigration TODAY.
Now I'm funny like that, I thought Funko already did....

*I* already did (twice)

summarising the one I linked, overlooking too small countries
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/sta...20130315154514

oh, forgive me, you're right: it's not a chart... it's a TABLE!


(I also have to laugh (but a little bit so as not to vex you) that there were returning greeks in Greece in 2011:D)
you're welcome to vex me
Tha's surprising to me too, but it's Table 1 saying that in 2001 there has been a net flux of 60.5k Greeks reentering Greece, and just 50.4k foreigners

Resource Consumer
18-06-2013, 14:27:58
BTW - I guess the reporter was Lyce Doucet who is Irish which might explain the articulation problem :)

paiktis
18-06-2013, 16:12:35
my dear chesire cat, please don't see black helicopters :D

I'm not trying to wind you up.

In large letters, in your post your were writing about 2011. So In 2011 you said that there were more greeks returning to greece than foreigners entering. I said, this is impossible.
Now you say it's about 2001.

Then you quote me saying that that's impossible to happen in 2011 and then you reply that that's wrong because it did happen in 2001.

Also the link you provided in your last post doesn't work.

With the hope that maybe there can be a light, finally, at the end of this tunnel

kind regards
paiktis:D

paiktis
18-06-2013, 16:38:11
BTW - I guess the reporter was Lyce Doucet who is Irish which might explain the articulation problem :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyse_Doucet

If it was indeed her, it says here that's she's canadian.
It seemed to me like she had a real articulation problem, not just a different accent :D
(but i've never heard canadians speaking english so I dont know :) i've heard them speak french though and they indeed have a very weird accent - at least i cant understand them easily)

Venom
18-06-2013, 17:36:34
This thread has internet AIDS.

paiktis
18-06-2013, 18:06:45
it can live for many years
(there are new medecins)

MDA
18-06-2013, 20:23:13
Charybdis is a Greek supervillain.

zmama
18-06-2013, 20:41:48
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTuH7v3Y8V90t5xcJvBXMcO7Qjnbf2KD mebq_gmO6aXgFsv5Yzi

MDA
19-06-2013, 10:56:55
:lol:

zmama
19-06-2013, 12:26:11
Says it all :lol:

Cheshire Cat
20-06-2013, 07:37:42
Now you say it's about 2001.
...
Also the link you provided in your last post doesn't work.


2001 is obviously a typo
all the charts and tables provided above, and my previous quotes about them, clearly mention 2011

As for the link, I copypasted it from my previous post (#39)
and I pasted the ellipsis instead of the whole url :o
I understand that backtracking one or two posts to find the available information can be as easy as breathing for someone, and a cubersome task for others with the attention span and the focusing ability measurable in microseconds.

All the charts an tables are there to read for those who want to, and they all come from the same article from where you can open them all, and they all report with clear headers and labels which data they represent and for which years. What I posted I just read from there, and I'm not a rocket scientist, and I have no agenda whatsoever.

Of course I am more comfortable with data and figures, and less with teh subtleties of language and communication. For sure I can't be up at the same level with the skills of a professional journalist, who intrinsecally for his profession practices mudding the waters, reporting fals statements, twisting the truth, stating something and then denying it in the following sentence
:p
I look in awe at such for me unattainable skills

I have absoutely no claim of my own, I absolutely made no statements of my own
I only reported what I found in the "Migration and migrant population statistics
" article by Eurostat, whence the 1st chart Funko linked came from.
So you don't need to argue with me: if you don't like, don't understand or refuse to understand what Eurostat say, argue with Eurostat
:p

as far as I'm concerned, case closed
:beer:

now, considering that times of crisis and turmoil can be propitious for those who have initiative, to build up a fortune....
...could you put a good word for me with your local authorities? I'd like to migrate to Greece!
:D

MDA
20-06-2013, 11:10:33
"Even in the worst of times, someone turns a profit."

paiktis
20-06-2013, 18:06:34
My good chesire cat :D

I see the journalistic proffession has an outstanding reputation in the UK too :D

Alas, I have quit the field for something far more stable far less stressing and far more freeloadering. The public sector. Where noone does anything but you have all your rights gauranteed.

But it's true that the love of the language (the greek of course but it encapsulates the love of writing as well in general) never leaves you.
It's like a knife you must always keep sharpining on rocks. It gives you great joy.

Coming back to the beloved subject.
I won't go back because I think you did write 2001 all over the place. I could be wrong I won't press it.
Now, I did the herculian task of going back and clicking the first chart you gave. That was 3 days ago I think but if I'm remembering right it did not counteract my point. Namely (simply, crystal clear lucid) that by % greece has more immingrants than the UK and some other big countries.
That's all.

Thank you for your kind words :D

paiktis
20-06-2013, 18:37:41
As for migrating here, you're EU so you can just come here and sleep at the beach all day long :D I could do the same but I don't like the trade - off :D
(unless cameron lives up to his promise to protect his conservative electorate from the hordes of hungry/angry greeks coming to the UK and eating all the locusts :D)

Funko
21-06-2013, 08:09:18
He did write 2001 once, but it was a typo.

TAZ
21-06-2013, 14:52:27
Pity we don't have a Qatari poster to set the record straight about how their little desert island is being turned into a jungle of immigrants...:(

Qatar isn't an Island.

zmama
21-06-2013, 14:58:51
It will be when the Welsh fascists take it over!

MDA
21-06-2013, 15:22:22
welschists

zmama
21-06-2013, 16:08:05
Whatta word! Lots of spit when I say it! :bouncmsk:

jsorense
21-06-2013, 17:06:29
suffering succotash

MoSe
26-06-2013, 13:19:21
It will be when the Welsh fascists take it over!

and make it like Bah-Rain

Funko
26-06-2013, 13:25:18
BA DUM TISH!