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paiktis
31-10-2012, 20:55:53
minimum wage in holland: 1300 euro
minimum wage in bulgaria: 184 euro.


that's not a union. that's shit.

jsorense
31-10-2012, 22:19:57
So strike already. :beer:

MDA
31-10-2012, 22:47:48
Ew.

mr_B
01-11-2012, 07:19:38
what do you mean Paiktis?
Do you want to have a same minium wage for all countries? that would be shit for the economy man

Funko
01-11-2012, 09:09:32
Is the cost of living in Bulgaria and Holland the same?

Fistandantilus
01-11-2012, 10:59:25
If they enter the euro it will catch up quickly :p

Lurker
01-11-2012, 16:57:32
Whatever it is, it's a sure thing dutch architects are overpaid.

Fistandantilus
02-11-2012, 01:31:17
Just one of them.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-11-2012, 08:33:06
Meanwhile, the grecian "government" is busy protecting their friends and donors, the major tax cheats. Be sure to follow their game and blame the germans, the eu and the underpant gnomes of Zurich.

mr_B
02-11-2012, 11:48:38
You meant Rem Koolhaas didnt you Fist?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-11-2012, 12:10:08
No, I didn't.

mr_B
02-11-2012, 16:01:04
I was not talking to you Dylletje, I was talking to the Italian baseball lovert

Funko
02-11-2012, 16:22:24
Whatever it is, it's a sure thing dutch architects are overpaid.

As far as I can work out Dutch architects are just a channel to funnel money to the dutch tax man.

paiktis
02-11-2012, 17:18:49
Meanwhile, the grecian "government" is busy protecting their friends and donors, the major tax cheats. Be sure to follow their game and blame the germans, the eu and the underpant gnomes of Zurich.

dont take me on little austrian gnome :D (that's funny btw)

The germansi have huge responsibilities for what's going on. The eurozone system as well. the pathetic performance of the greek government doesnt aleviate their crimes and i dont need them to blame the germans.

one very simple thing:

banks loaned money. too much money.
they're stupid throw rocks at them. dont save them.

plus: outside of the eurozone system there would be no way the interest loans would be so low.
now there's a plethora of "saviors" coming in wanting to buy everything.
german companies actively corrupted greek officials (not that they needed much pressure)
hell even their submarines can't stand up straight in the water.

i've not aimed far away from what the future holded in the past. believe that the left wing WILL win the next election and the eurozone will be history.
even the 2 year extension, even this wont be enough.
(of course this wont happen, they'll back down agai. but that doesnt change systemic weaknesses of the eurozone, the fact that the commission is a rotten trojan horse of neoliberalism and that national corporate interests have overtaken supranational institutions)
that the greek gov is corrupt, yes. they actively corrupted it too.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-11-2012, 15:45:52
You're such a whiny twat. And if your whiny lefty twats win your election and you finally leave the euro, the better for the rest of the eurozone.

mr_B
04-11-2012, 16:01:44
hear hear, the word Responsibility is not in your dictionary is it?
blame the Germans greek, that's soo easy

mr_B
04-11-2012, 16:03:40
lol @ funko
jj jj inderdeed

paiktis
04-11-2012, 18:53:50
You're such a whiny twat. And if your whiny lefty twats win your election and you finally leave the euro, the better for the rest of the eurozone.

In other words, no rebut.
Figured as much.

You know when some nazi german general ordered the bloodbath of a greek village, he used the same phraseology as the germans do now: they're lazy, corrupt etc so no mercy.

some things never change.


at least germany accumulates steady heatred from all over europe (apart from the ones who benefit)

of course the eurozone will not survive a greek exit.
I'd rather we'd stay but I won't loose too much sleep over it

Koshko
04-11-2012, 22:53:13
Is the cost of living in Bulgaria and Holland the same?

This is exactly what I was going to ask.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-11-2012, 08:23:36
"of course the eurozone will not survive a greek exit."

Yeah, getting rid of deadweight will kill the eurozone.

You don't earn a rebut as in substantial discussion as your rants are always the same. Evil germans, some nazi thing, poor grecians. Stop whining.

Cheshire Cat
05-11-2012, 10:34:22
we'd need a Mike Eurozone to bear the torch with the greek flame to ignite a new miracle oh nice

zmama
05-11-2012, 15:49:38
"of course the eurozone will not survive a greek exit."

Yeah, getting rid of deadweight will kill the eurozone.

You don't earn a rebut as in substantial discussion as your rants are always the same. Evil germans, some nazi thing, poor grecians. Stop whining.

What Dyl said!

MDA
05-11-2012, 15:51:37
be nice to Germans, they're funny people!

paiktis
05-11-2012, 16:50:36
"of course the eurozone will not survive a greek exit."

Yeah, getting rid of deadweight will kill the eurozone.

You don't earn a rebut as in substantial discussion as your rants are always the same. Evil germans, some nazi thing, poor grecians. Stop whining.

Yes, it will kill it.
Otherwise we'd be gone a thousand times over, don't worry.

And your tirades are always the same too! Corrupt greeks! (or irresponsible for the dutch favor)

You thought at first that greece was an insolated insident.

History proved that it isn't. It has spread (i'm bored to explain, you have eyes so see it yourself)


now that germans (fine, i should say german gov if it makes your austrian character feel better, although I'm not sure it's just that) today have a negative interest loan doesnt tell you anything?

They have profeeted billions from all this. THE SURPLUSES OF THE NORTH ARE THE DEFICITS OF THE SOUTH. SEE THE FREEKING GRAPH YOURSELF.

They also have completely fucked up when the crisis begun (they acted slow)

they purposefully loaned (together with french - english for ones were fuck all outside and good riddance) and sold their products to economies they themsleves indebted. they have broken as many rules, been given as many and more writeoffs. oh please.


It's ok if you keep saying about corruption. That europe is a fucking frankenstein creation maybe it's beyond you.

I imagine you will soon find out this aspect too.


Meanwhile i did ate a nice german sausage yesterday so im not your fanatic type despite the (somewhat) trolling here
(with currie and foggy bear)

Venom
05-11-2012, 17:38:02
Did you demand that the German sausage be free?

MDA
05-11-2012, 18:08:27
Beware Germans offering "free sausage"

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-11-2012, 18:38:09
"they purposefully loaned (together with french - english for ones were fuck all outside and good riddance) and sold their products to economies they themsleves indebted."

Ok, how did those evil germans and french "indebt" the poor greek victims? Say "take that loan" at gunpoint, right?

paiktis
05-11-2012, 18:53:38
"Ok, how did those evil germans and french "indebt" the poor greek victims? Say "take that loan" at gunpoint, right? "


No, they didn't have to.

The markets functioned on the belief (I'm suprised I have to tell you this) that the whole of eurozone has germany's credit card.
So the interests fell to low levels.
Despite the fact that in the stability pact there's a clear forbidance for one member state to bail out another, the markets did function under that belief.

It was only after it started to appear that germany will not necessairily bail out another country and that greek debt had risen to unsustainable levels that the spreads skyrocketed.

When this happened germany did the worse of all things and stalled untill the crisis had escalated to unessaicery levels.

Don't you know that hollande purposefully rejected merkel's pleas for deep austerity in order to avoid plunging france herself into recession (like the troika has done with greece) and be at the mercy of the krauts sorry germans, lets keep it civil?


As to why they took the loans, shouldn't you instead be wondering why the markets kept giving them to them purposefully knowing full well that it is an unsustainable system?
Outside of the eurozone the free markets would have regulated the interests rates without any problem (as they have done for decades before 2000)

And then what happens? instead of letting banks take the hit, they transfer the loans (who ere used to fund german projects as well) to the tax payers. they bring here a disasterous team that cant even make one prediction right (+0.2% or so growth for greece projection in 2011, when in reality it turns out 6% and 7% recession because of the measures they imposed and are imposing) etc etc

voila germany has the upper hand to dictate fiscal policy to whomever it pleases. portaits itself as the save heaven for investment effectively getting paid to be loaned money.

but as to why they took the loans?
because they're as stupid as the banks who gave them to them.
it takes two to tango.

paiktis
05-11-2012, 19:02:17
and of course the troika are not stupid. the IMF charter specifically states that if a debt is not viable the IMF cannot loan.
They lied in their projections pure and simple. They baptised and KEEP baptising the debt as viable (IT IS NOT) in order for this pyramid scham to perpetuate.
Instead of solving the organic weaknesses of the eurozone.
because at the end it will become apparent the germany is simply too big to be accomodated in the european institutions as they stand now.
if greece has to change once, europe has to change tenfold or it will go nowhere simply by kicking the can down the road so to speak

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-11-2012, 19:51:45
It's quite simple, really.

In EMU, you can't print money, inflate your way out of debt, or depreciate your currency. You have to keep your house in order.

Now Italy, Spain and Portugal have failed somewhat in that regard, and Ireland is a big fat bubble story. Germany has a bit too much artificial wage moderation.

Where I really blame Merkel is the struggle against ECB intervention in the war that the rating agencies and their owners have started against the countries mentionned. But that's now done, their bond yields are essentially under control, and they have taken most steps to recover.

What has this got to do with Greece? Very little. It's a special case, the current account and budget deficits have been so excessive that even with the ecb lending at 0% you would still run deficits. The rub is that you could get out of trouble by enforcing the tax laws. But that is no option for your political class, they'd rather let the economy go to hell, public services collapse and ordinary people rot. And they get away with that because too many people act like you act: Blame ze germans and whine, whine, whine about the foreign injustices.

paiktis
05-11-2012, 20:04:26
But I agree more than you agree with yourself about tax evasion. It would solve "some" of the problems. That the political elite is rotten? Maybe a bit more than some of their european counterparts.

I disagree with you on the other aspects.
Take a stroll at portugal or spain or italy. Just because peripheral bonds are "gradually" falling in line for now do you really think that people will put up with it? they do suffer and the situation will escalate again. It will tottally collapse if greece leaves the eurozone.

That we would get out if we enforced tax laws is a naive way of looking at things.
The measures for "inside depreciation" the troika are imposing is what destroys even further the greek economy. There will be no taxes collected because there is no growth to generate them. There is no growth because of the troika. Simple.

About the deficit, if we stop paying the loans we are 1.2 billion euros short of having a surplus. That's not a big leap to make. It certaintly is less that the 13 billion of new austerity measures the troika is demanding.

ALso keep in mind that "some" countries get loans at 0% rate and loan back to greece at 3% or 5%. They gain money (if these loans are payed back, which they will not)
Plus further "assistance" (=money for the banks) will be deposited in a closed account inaccessible for the greek economy. It's just lenders paying the banks with european tax payers money through greece.

Finally (because I have to go to bed Im exhausted today!) the eurozone is not in such a pristine state as you make it out to be.
18 million people out of work is the highest ever. 25% or so in spain and greece is not sustainable.
fiscal austerity helps germany and a handful of other countries, it destroys the rest. there is no redistribution of wealth imposed (as should be in all unions) and the ECB doesnt even have a mandate for minding in creating new jobs.

In short, there is no reason in allowing the south to become "low cost" area in services, wages, quality of life.
The eurozone system as it is now benefits specific countries. If certain economies can't sustain an acceptable quality of life within this system then it will cease.
germany also has to decide wether it wants to take on USA,China etc on its own (that's a laugh) or if it again remember to become european (and not this silly unwilling "leader" by mistake"

cheers :D

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
05-11-2012, 21:25:01
That the political elite is rotten? Maybe a bit more than some of their european counterparts.

lol

MoSe
07-11-2012, 08:44:45
Beware Germans offering "free sausage"

Timeo Alemannos, et salsicias (http://it.glosbe.com/it/la/salsiccia) ferentes!

:sausage: