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paiktis
07-05-2012, 00:26:41
Cant sleep. This is how i see the result:

greek people are convinced that with the eu/imf/german plan they will be condemned to live in bulgarian standards. It's ok if you're already used to them, it's not ok if you never were.

they know that the country has huge potential in several sectors that goes either unexplored or in the deep pockets of the elite and the creditors.

poverty is now rampant. there is no use in talking about a 10 year plan when you have no job. thus, they destroyed the current status quo.

TSIPRAS or the radical left is the suprise in these elections. it is a bizzare (or glowing - depends how you look at it) constellation of heteroclitous left wing... thingies.

but TSIPRAS is 1) young 2) fisty 3) has managed to instill some kind of hope 4) is not plagued by corruption of the former two big parties.


Also, the electorate knows that the former two big parties only care for a very few selected people in which they give this country's riches. them and the creditors.

the extreme far right that has managed for the first time ever to enter the parliement just goes to show that wherever germans get involved they produce nazis.

on a more prevalent not, the far right has to a degree managed to substitue police in some neighborhoods. It's a very dire development, one that i hope will have no continuation.

but i believe that even with TSIPRAS, the electorate was basically just... angry.


yes they destroyed the established political status quo. and that is big, big news.
and maybe the new powers to be in greece will not manage to completely get us out of the creditors' fuck fest. maybe to a degree one has to calculate all possible outcomes for the best result.

but in any case the people just dont want the old people in power. the ones that lied, corrupted, took advantage of and ultimately betrayed in a huge way their constituencies.

so maybe with the imf, most probably without, greece is heading on to a disaster that will at least be its own.
bleak ending but at least not with the previous thieves in power.

MDA
07-05-2012, 10:43:04
... wherever germans get involved they produce nazis...


Still too soon!

paiktis
07-05-2012, 11:09:50
that was said tongue in cheek mostly although i do think that merkel/soible what's their names, are like oil trying to put out a fire.
i think germany will become even more isolated as time goes by. even their hardcore euro friends the dutchies produce deficits now (and many countries norway, austria, france etc have this pestilence of far right wing). this is not an excuse but a alarm bell that something goes really wrong.

i don't believe that the euro will be saved as it is standing now. there will either be radical change or it will be curtailed.

i also believe that it is the eurozone system that produces large deficits in import/export balances in the south that can only be faced through borrowing.
that is not to say that greek politicians haven't been proven to be thieves of the highest magnitude.

Lurker
07-05-2012, 13:45:00
Some reasonable observations in there -- where is the real Paiktis?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-05-2012, 14:05:01
Most likely he's sober.

Funko
08-05-2012, 07:41:36
I'm not familiar with that term.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-05-2012, 09:26:33
Most likely he's not drunk.

Funko
08-05-2012, 10:06:43
Wow is that possible?

MOBIUS
08-05-2012, 10:08:22
"There is a Greek dimension, beyond that which is known to man. It is a dimension as vast as space and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between sobriety and unconsciousness, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call The Paiktis Zone."

;)

MDA
08-05-2012, 10:53:48
Very famous quote from Rod Serlingostas

Kitsuki
08-05-2012, 17:31:56
Essentially, the Greeks have chosen bankruptcy. I think that will be more painful than austerity...

Poison Arrow Frog
08-05-2012, 18:29:25
Especially when everyone in the country loses all their life savings. Well, all of them who have not moved everything off shore.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-05-2012, 19:14:36
Wow is that possible?

No.

paiktis
09-05-2012, 20:12:42
It is (even though in small doses) :D

It is very funny to watch all main stream medias these few days, especially after tsipras got the mandate to form a gov. (all first three parties get one).

The whole established system fell on them like hungry jackals or hyenas (I prefer the later).

They loved them (syriza) they hated them they pleaded with them they threatened them they made fun of them...


It is very wrong to succumb to the idea that a just society is impossible. That the greek people would either have to submit to extreme corruption just to have a piece of bread to eat while very few (and the creditors) get all the riches.

Of course it is so so so funny to hear the two former big parties of cleptocracy ready to abandon (as if) their commitments and say that the bail out terms can be negotiated.


Look, this is a battle for a vast array of legitimate demands. They all come down to one thing and that's social justice.

It now seems that you need a vehicle to accomplish that. Large portions of greek society deem that this vehicle is the far left. Large portions but not the majority.

I think it is a very ugly prospect to basically blackmail people and say: we will keep robbing you but it's the only way to keep having something to eat.


There will be new elections (unless something sort of a betrayal happens this week by the moderate left - IT COULD HAPPEN THOUGH).

There will be two tranches.sides whatever you call it.

A right wing which will come full force completely all inclusive (neoliberals, ultra conservatives, ultra neoliberals, thinnly veiled usurpers of nationalism that use that notion for personal gain - ethnikokapilia in greek, one word describes it all).

The "socialists" are finished, there's simply no place in the current climate for them.
They are just corrupted, that's their ideology in the mind of the people.

So next elections will be a show down between an all inclusive right wing and a not all inclusive left wing (division being an inherent pathology of the left). communist party abstinence from the left wing coalition is very damaging but they're never happy unless you bring a stalin to them (one could say). nevertheless, they are true to what they believe.

That is unless there's some sort of betrayal, freak solution because the president has the right to summon a last meating of all parties elected the last day.

Nevertheless, the bail out as it stands will not pass. That is certain.
Plus a generous portion of corrupted fatbellies has been democratically decapitated. I say that's a step forward.

paiktis
09-05-2012, 20:49:02
I will only add that in my humble opinion tsipras made a crucial error (though not himself, a party member of his).
He said they'll use bank savings to bolster growth, spreading insecurity about the safety of savings in the peoples' mind.

I personally believe many of tsipras' demands are very reasonable, logical but they do happen in the framework of a clearly left mindset.
Baring in mind that greece forms a part of a larger coalition I doubt that tsipras can alone do all these things. It can be a flame though, maybe with a change of heart in france (this has already happened) that can move europe away from this destructive road.
noone can go all the way alone though. not dometically, not internationally.
that's why i think that it was good that tsipras said he wants to have a clear societal backing to push forward his reforms, that will not (in any way) please the haves or the creditors.
so it's new elections
(that will also help rectify another sinister mistake made in these elections, probably because of ignorance)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-05-2012, 08:32:55
I'm just glad that the Grecians are all only poor victims of evil bankers, politicians and, most importantly, germans.

Funko
10-05-2012, 08:43:57
Can anyone think of anything more evil than a German Banker Politician?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-05-2012, 09:41:29
German Nazi Banker Politician

MDA
10-05-2012, 10:58:59
Dutch architects?

zmama
10-05-2012, 11:18:04
ow, the true evil!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
10-05-2012, 14:32:29
Dutch architects put Greece under water.

MDA
10-05-2012, 15:05:07
they got thrown under the bridge

Funko
10-05-2012, 15:25:34
German Nazi Banker Politician

German Nazi is a tautology isn't it?

Cheshire Cat
10-05-2012, 15:34:48
a Teutology

Funko
10-05-2012, 15:45:32
That's the science of efficiency.

paiktis
11-05-2012, 13:31:01
I'm just glad that the Grecians are all only poor victims of evil bankers, politicians and, most importantly, germans.

I'm just glad we understand eachother!!:beer:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
11-05-2012, 14:34:49
Yamas!

paiktis
12-05-2012, 15:44:51
prost :beer: (i think it is :D)

well one of the likely scenarios is, society cracks like a small branch and there is no other alternative but to leave the euro (btw as syriza says, greece has ample money to keep paying wages and salaries - if we stop paying debt). - (i have to say i consider moronic the decision to swift debt to national govs instead of letting banks suffer for being idiotic - but plutocracy never pays does it)

if greece opts out of the debt (a large part of which is unjust for the people) and then prepares to exit the euro as well what will happen i think is this:

most of europe wil fall on germany and pressure it to loosen up fiscal discipline rules.
if germany accepts, greece remains in the euro (maybe)
if not, germany exits the euro.

in short i find it much more plausibe for germany to exit the euro before greece.

the whatever personal responsibility a single greek citizen has in the debt is miniscule compares to what he's going through imho
(that is not to say that he has none - he does have, but if all this is a great opportunity for domestic and foreign little overlords to think they can rip a country blind, they most likely messed with the wrong che quevara - country is not for sale, public education and public health are non negotiable, that's an axiom becuase it is in these pillars that the poor people can depend, they have nothing else so it is worth protecting, let plutocrats worry about theirs we worry about ours)

(on the responsibility front let us also not forget siemens paid the bribes. aka forcibly corrupted)

VetLegion_
27-05-2012, 14:27:11
What about the bank run that is being talked about these days?

Perhaps the foreign media is overhyping it, but if I was Greek I'd keep my money in my matress.

Also, I'm curious about the immigrant thingy. I read some article saying that Albanians are not the problem, but all the others are. Really?

VetLegion_
27-05-2012, 14:32:16
Also, big mistake calling Germans nazis. They're so sensitive about that that you don't do it even in jest (i know, I did). The fall in German tourism of 10-15% can probably be attributed wholly to that. Germans are flocking to Croatia, and we're rising the prices year on year.

paiktis
31-05-2012, 19:54:53
vetty we don't have any inferiority eastern european complexes like you do vis a vis europe :D we can call our german buttbuddies whatever we like :D


seriously though,
yes there is a kind of greek run to the banks but not very serious.


the thing is that those that HAVE money and they are a lot, have moved it out of the country to switzerland or elsewhere further aggravating the tax evading thing, that happens in vast numers by those that HAVE the money.

this is a parameter of the problem. there are many others, a lot don't have to do with greece, but it does remain a serious parameter.

for example i havent pulled money from the bank. and i consider myself well versed in what's going on.

i visited croatia and loved it, it's a great place. glad to see you get german tourists as i think they are not the worse kind you can get :)
but greek tourism hasnt suffered anyway, despite what the fear mongerers would tell you. there's an influx from russia for example and germany and other places.

immigration is a huge issue. one that i want to be careful about what to say, because i want solutions, real solutions.

one thing that the left will do though is abolish doublin two. that means free passage to everyone to go to france, germany, wherever he likes.
that will probably mean out of the shengen agreement, so maybe a compromise will be done there too

europe as you know it has finished though. big words but it will be done or there will be no europe

VetLegion_
01-06-2012, 10:52:01
vetty we don't have any inferiority eastern european complexes like you do vis a vis europe :D we can call our german buttbuddies whatever we like :D

Yeah, yeah... I'm telling you, they're hypersensitive about it :D

immigration is a huge issue. one that i want to be careful about what to say, because i want solutions, real solutions.

What? Careful about what you say? While posting under a pseudonym on a forum in the middle of nowhere? If you can't speak your mind here, where can you?

I see Greece as Croatia's somewhat bigger and also somewhat demented neighbour :cute: whom we don't really associate with but since we live in the same building, so to speak, we share many similarities. So it is interesting to me to see what is going on, because the main reason why we aren't in the same mess as you is that we started the whole capitalism thing later. But we're massively going into debt, so we'll get there eventually. It is unavoidable. However, letting immigration get out of hand to the point that the streets are not safe anymore is something I hope we will be able to avoid.

I'm curious how the whole mess in Greece will play out. What is your opinion? Is the state going to default?

paiktis
01-06-2012, 11:54:49
i see croatia as a sympathetic small village ex nazi collaborator :D (well not the latter obviously, it was a joke :) )

i dont think we have that much in common : )
in ww2 we fought nazism you embraced (yeah yeah for reasons of well, i dont really know why!)

then we were cut off by the iron courtain, you lived in a different political system for decades on end.

and now, you still have to get to the EU and are far away from the euro (that's a good thing)

(there is still the yugoslav war thing, but there i think you can condemn us with a lot of baad things)

but i dont reject any proposition of friendly sentiments :D and i have a small aversion to judge all things on a national basis. even though i do consider you, personaly, as a little jenisar of neoliberalism.
but that's out of naivity, not malice, CERTAINTLY not self interest ;-)

careful what to say... this wasnt meant that my thought will have some impact to anyone but to me.

so i'd like to take an as much as possible objective approach to that issue.

the thing is that dublin II obliges an non paper immigrant that is found let's say in germany to return to his original EU country of entry.
up untill recently (due to some greek laws as well) that was by up to 98% greece.

so massive influx of asian immigrants, massive returns to greece.

they dont want to stay here, we shouldnt make them. off with dublin ii. ( a very basic explanation)

also of course we agree that massive unregulated and non absorbed non paper immigration is one element of criminality. the other is poverty plain and simple.

for example my grandma wasnt attacked by some immigrant ( well not completely) but by some drugs addict ex eastern european country repatriated greek)
not that this changed anything of the above

paiktis
01-06-2012, 12:16:49
also i'd say to this issue maybe dont think so much as what you can do as a country because you have different interests inside your own country.

even if you get the influx of immigration greece gets (and other countries) some will still be able to walk the streets without fear, those that have the money to leave for other neighborhoods.
so it's better to mix your national sentiment with a bit of a class-based one ;)

but as a matter of principle dont let your country become a crematorium of tortured souls a cargo storage for masses of miserable people. help them when you can where they already are and carefully monitor what your gov signs...
because those who will pay in the end, will again be the have nots (immigrants included)

paiktis
01-06-2012, 12:50:36
about the state going to default, that's not the issue.
the issue is for public health, public education, WATER and other resources remaining free and accessible by all.
once you see it like that you can bypass all that hipster fear mongering rhetoric and simply focus on what you can save.
as far as i see it, the greek state HAS defaulted, when basic needs can no longer be met.
the poisoned chalice of the memorandum will be smashed and that's only the beggining i think.
will that mean that greece exits the eurozone? in my opinion that could very well be, but i do think that this will not happen.

even if you erase greece from the map (hasnt happened for so long wont happen now) europe will still not survive without a eurobond and the ecb starting to print money.
it's very clear and it's a reality that more and more people wake themselves up to. including your ww2 partners :p :D


the accumulation of debt inside the eurozone though is a multifaceted thing and there's no sure nomotelical fatalistic inevitability that you will follow in these footsteps. I consider these times, times of great change and maybe it's good that croatia is still out. you could get in when the smoke has settled, it would be far better. (forget that even bulgaria managed to get in before you :D)

VetLegion_
01-06-2012, 20:35:21
Well, by similarities, I meant primarily the mediterranean connection. There's a certain air of, shall we say, irresponsibility that seems to come in the package with a beautiful sea and nice weather. The protestant willingness (and one could almost say a masochistic wish) to lower consumption, repay debts, cut spending... simply isn't there in the club Med. Which is why Croatia is heading down the drain eventually (just not yet).

I do hope you guys do come up with some closure to this thing soon. It really irritates me how the whole mess is happilly used by the eurobureaucratic elites to further their dream of Western Soviet Empire. Eurobonds are a monstrous idea, as is printing more money, fiscal integration, and everything else. EU should be a minimal framework just like the founding fathers wished... oh wait. Despite what they wished.

paiktis
04-06-2012, 19:32:54
vetty my friend, what connects us is the balkan crazyness, am I right?

Fuck them bitches, we know what's best.

The EU is alright. It's just some german hypochondriacs on the way. (and greek too loose people)
Democratic deficit is a major deficit.
Don't buy to the anglosaxon island village propaganda.
EU is good. We need to fine tune it and all SE europe will join.
What do them fucked anglos propose? Nothing but their petty interests.
Stay true be with us and we will accomplish (never mind the scars of the red (or blue) past.
That's all. Peace

paiktis
04-06-2012, 19:56:04
And I understand some slovakians getting pissed at all of this. Having to pay for all of this.
But croatia is out (and far down for the moment).
Don't forget that germany is getting pissed rich because of all of that.
If it keeps pushing we might as well send the F16s to fauck carpet bombard the shit out of them.
there's a better way.
we're working on it.

paiktis
04-06-2012, 20:57:03
and by that protestand work ethic is it? you crack me up (what is that? eating their own crap? :D)

we OWN 5.000 years of civilization greeks/italians what have you.

they're new comer slackers :D

but again, differantiate between your own people inside your own country and face what is good for YOU. and your people (supercedes national borders)
noone will force another tito/then milosevic down your throat.
it's just that the other scenario is known. (it ends with leveling germany)

Fistandantilus
04-06-2012, 21:11:03
we OWN 5.000 years of civilization greeks/italians what have you.


That hurts man.

paiktis
04-06-2012, 21:15:00
did leonardo painted sistina because he had a protestant work ethic?

was byzantium a 1.000 year old empire because they knew how to build cars and eat their own crap? :D

venceremos :D
we're going for the long haul :D

we're going to teach them frozen zombie bitches how to enjoy life and build miracles!
not how to kill 8 millions of an ethnic group and have their loans erased.

again there are of these people in whatever nation.

Fistandantilus
04-06-2012, 21:27:53
Isn't it funny how he tells you not to call germans nazi because they are all so sensible and then proceed to spew a shitload of insulting clichès about greeks?

Go Paiktis! We won't bow down!

paiktis
04-06-2012, 21:30:46
it's ok fistandantilus. He's flabbergasted by neoliberal soros shit.
greece has a vow/promise to the SE europe. for multiple reasons.
I can't just tell them to piss off. I must explain.
croatians think they're better off as german little dicks. they need to shake off that hegemony and be their own men.

We'll never bow down that's for sure :D

paiktis
04-06-2012, 23:50:12
you know, when germany was unified there were nazis in the eastern side?
becuase allegendly they hadn't undergone that "cleansing" experience (their consience as well as their FUCKING LOANS) as the western germanoids.

croatia, turkey what have you is the same.
hell maybe greece to some extend (that nationalistic edge).

the fact is that those german biggots dont have a clue about dealing with the power their economy has brought to them.

they'll either cave in or be blown fuck high to kingdom come AGAIN.
there's no excuse for stupidity,

and even though i loath the compromised commission etc etc, I do continue to think that there's a redeeming value to the EU.
If this is transformed to an EU by and for the people. Otherwise is world war three. (and i'm not about to kill anyone).
let english nazis fight their own.
I'll be more than happy to fight greek hillbillies

paiktis
05-06-2012, 00:01:20
fucking soros and what have you building central european universities to teach "neoliberalism" to the starved paysants of the former soviet republics.
they've turned them to the purest rapists of their own countries and peoples.
hopefully they'll learn and won't be blinded by their hatred of the past.
drinking coca cola and eating at mcdonald's don't mean you're a responsible grown up vetty. It just means you'll die of cholesterol.
Think about that from your "capitalist" "bigger" neighboors.

Venom
05-06-2012, 12:18:16
We'll never bow down that's for sure :D


Probably because it sounds like work.

VetLegion_
05-06-2012, 20:12:54
I was confused about the "eating crap" bit but then I remembered that Michael Lewis article in Vanity Fair about Germans from about a year ago. He's an excellent writer and that is the worst thing I have ever read by him. He invented the coprophagia bullshit out of thin air. Really shameless. Also, consider what would happen if he wrote that about any other nation. If he wrote that Greeks are "shiteaters", for example, what would be the fallout? It's OK to insult the Germans.

With regards to Soros... yeah, he's promoting his leftist "open society" crap all over eastern Europe. However, given that Greeks are natural leftists, it was completely unnecessary for him to spread the word in Greece. You followed your version of socialism and look where it brought you. In fact, Greece is the posterboy of crazy leftist policies. Soros did not touch you, and he's notably not even criticizing you. Everybody's shooting the verbal arrows in the direction of Germany.

Also, leveling Germany with your F16s? Let's forget for the moment that your tanks are Leopard IIs, which can be remotely controlled from a facility in Hamburg, and let's assume you can afford the fuel for the planes. The moment you fly for Germany, Turks can have a field day in Greece. So, your threats are not realistic. Also, to arrive to Germany you'd need to fly over Croatia first and we would of course shoot you down as a matter of simple courtesy to our German friends and allies.

And yeah, all this about the Sistine chapel and Greek monuments... do you really find pride in such ancient things? They were built by a race of people now long extinct, in their place descendants of Turks and various wandering shepards they brought to Greece from all over the place and mixed them with the remnants of the local inbred island and mountain population. The result, as we see, is not spectacular.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
06-06-2012, 06:59:03
did leonardo painted sistina because he had a protestant work ethic?


Leonardo's painting in the sistine chapel seem more like the result of greek work ethics.