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paiktis
01-11-2011, 01:48:55
That's so great.
Let's hope we can take down that german inspired EU. It's not worth a dime :D :cool:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-11-2011, 07:56:48
Yeah, time we kick you whiny twats out.

zmama
01-11-2011, 08:00:09
Amen!

Funko
01-11-2011, 08:55:47
Yeah, time we kick you whiny twats out.

Indeed.

MOBIUS
01-11-2011, 09:30:05
Yeah, time we kick you whiny twats out.

Oh God please say No!!! :beer:

Talk about an ungrateful bunch of twats biting the hand that feeds - your country would still be in the dark ages if it wasn't for the EU!

MOBIUS
01-11-2011, 09:37:57
I was complaining to a friend at work about the cunty attitude of the Greeks on my holiday (Are the Cretans particularly bad, because back in 2004 the people in Rhodes and general attitude seemed fine - or at least acceptable? Is it because your country is going to the dogs that everyone is acting like a bunch of cunts in general?) and he forwarded me this:

Even on a stiflingly hot summer's day, the Athens underground is a pleasure. It is air-conditioned, with plasma screens to entertain passengers relaxing in cool, cavernous departure halls - and the trains even run on time.
There is another bonus for users of this state-of-the-art rapid transport system: it is, in effect, free for the five million people of the Greek capital.
With no barriers to prevent free entry or exit to this impressive tube network, the good citizens of Athens are instead asked to 'validate' their tickets at honesty machines before boarding. Few bother.

This is not surprising: fiddling on a Herculean scale — from the owner of the smallest shop to the most powerful figures in business and politics — has become as much a part of Greek life as ouzo and olives.
Indeed, as well as not paying for their metro tickets, the people of Greece barely paid a penny of the underground’s £1.5 billion cost — a ‘sweetener’ from Brussels (and, therefore, the UK taxpayer) to help the country put on an impressive 2004 Olympics free of the city’s notorious traffic jams.
The transport perks are not confined to the customers. Incredibly, the average salary on Greece’s railways is £60,000, which includes cleaners and track workers - treble the earnings of the average private sector employee here.

The over ground rail network is as big a racket as the EU-funded underground. While its annual income is only £80 million from ticket sales, the wage bill is more than £500m a year — prompting one Greek politician to famously remark that it would be cheaper to put all the commuters into private taxis.
‘We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,’ says Stefans Manos, a former Greek finance minister. ‘And yet, there isn’t a single private company in Greece with that kind of average pay.’
Significantly, since entering Europe as part of an ill-fated dream by politicians of creating a European super-state, the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled in a decade. At the same time, perks and fiddles reminiscent of Britain in the union-controlled 1970s have flourished.

Greek farce: Living it up in swanky harbour-side restaurants

Ridiculously, Greek pastry chefs, radio announcers, hairdressers and masseurs in steam baths are among more than 600 professions allowed to retire at 50 (with a state pension of 95 per cent of their last working year’s earnings) — on account of the ‘arduous and perilous’ nature of their work.
This week, it was reported that every family in Britain could face a £14,000 bill to pay for Greece’s self-inflicted financial crisis. Such fears were denied yesterday after Brussels voted a massive new £100bn rescue package which, it insisted, would not need a contribution from Britain.
Even if this is true — and many British MPs have their doubts — we will still have to stump up £1billion to the bailout through the International Monetary Fund.
In return for this loan, European leaders want the Greeks’ free-spending ways to end immediately if the country is to be prevented from ‘infecting’ the world’s financial system. Naturally, the Greek people are not happy about this.
In Constitution Square this week, opposite the parliament, I witnessed thousands gathering to campaign against government cuts designed to save the country from bankruptcy.
After running battles with riot police, who used tear gas to disperse protesters, thousands are still camped out in the square ahead of a vote by Greek politicians next week on whether to accept Europe-imposed austerity measures.
Yet these protesters should direct their anger closer to home — to those Greeks who have for many years done their damndest to deny their country the dues they owe it.

Take a short trip on the metro to the city’s cooler northern suburbs, and you will find an enclave of staggering opulence.
Here, in the suburb of Kifissia, amid clean, tree-lined streets full of designer boutiques and car showrooms selling luxury marques such as Porsche and Ferrari, live some of the richest men and women in the world.
With its streets paved with marble, and dotted with charming parks and cafes, this suburb is home to shipping tycoons such as Spiros Latsis, a billionaire and friend of Prince Charles, as well as countless other wealthy industrialists and politicians.
One of the reasons they are so rich is that rather than paying millions in tax to the Greek state, as they rightfully should, many of these residents are living entirely tax-free.
Along street after street of opulent mansions and villas, surrounded by high walls and with their own pools, most of the millionaires living here are, officially, virtually paupers.
How so? Simple: they are allowed to state their own earnings for tax purposes, figures which are rarely challenged. And rich Greeks take full advantage.
Astonishingly, only 5,000 people in a country of 12 million admit to earning more than £90,000 a year — a salary that would not be enough to buy a garden shed in Kifissia.
Yet studies have shown that more than 60,000 Greek homes each have investments worth more than £1m, let alone unknown quantities in overseas banks, prompting one economist to describe Greece as a ‘poor country full of rich people’.

Manipulating a corrupt tax system, many of the residents simply say that they earn below the basic tax threshold of around £10,000 a year, even though they own boats, second homes on Greek islands and properties overseas.
And, should the taxman rumble this common ruse, it can be dealt with using a ‘fakelaki’ — an envelope stuffed with cash. There is even a semi-official rate for bribes: passing a false tax return requires a payment of up to 10,000 euros (the average Greek family is reckoned to pay out £2,000 a year in fakelaki.)
Even more incredibly, Greek shipping magnates — the king of kings among the wealthy of Kifissia — are automatically exempt from tax, supposedly on account of the great benefits they bring the country.
Yet the shipyards are empty; once employing 15,000, they now have less than 500 to service the once-mighty Greek shipping lines which, like the rest of the country, are in terminal decline.
With Greek President George Papandreou calling for a crackdown on these tax dodgers — who are believed to cost the economy as much as £40bn a year — he is now resorting to bizarre means to identify the cheats. After issuing warnings last year, government officials say he is set to deploy helicopter snoopers, along with scrutiny of Google Earth satellite pictures, to show who has a swimming pool in the northern suburbs — an indicator, officials say, of the owner’s wealth.

Cont...

MOBIUS
01-11-2011, 09:38:23
Officially, just over 300 Kifissia residents admitted to having a pool. The true figure is believed to be 20,000. There is even a boom in sales of tarpaulins to cover pools and make them invisible to the aerial tax inspectors.
‘The most popular and effective measure used by owners is to camouflage their pool with a khaki military mesh to make it look like natural undergrowth,’ says Vasilis Logothetis, director of a major swimming pool construction company. ‘That way, neither helicopters nor Google Earth can spot them.’
But faced with the threat of a crackdown, money is now pouring out of the country into overseas tax havens such as Liechtenstein, the Bahamas and Cyprus.

Parliament: It could be all over for Greece, which is effectively bust from relying on EU cash from richer northern European countries

‘Other popular alternatives include setting up offshore companies in Cyprus or the British Virgin Islands, or the purchase of real estate abroad,’ says one doctor, who declares an income of less than £90,000 yet earns five times that amount.
There has also been a boom in London property purchases by Athens-based Greeks in an attempt to hide their true worth from their domestic tax authorities.
‘These anti-tax evasion measures by the government force us to resort to even more detailed tax evasion ploys,’ admits Petros Iliopoulos, a civil engineer.
Hotlines have been set up offering rewards for people who inform on tax dodgers. Last month, to show the government is serious, it named and shamed 68 high-earning doctors found guilty of tax evasion.
‘We will spare no effort to collect what is due to the state,’ said Evangelos Venizelos, the new Greek finance minister of the socialist ruling party. ‘We promise to draft and apply a new and honest tax system, one that has been needed for decades, so that taxes are duly paid by those who should pay.’
Yet, already, it is too late. Greece is effectively bust — relying on EU cash from richer northern European countries, but this has been the case ever since the country finally joined the euro in 2001.
Two years earlier, the country was barred from entering because it did not meet the financial criteria.
No matter: the Greeks simply cooked the books. Two years later, having falsely claimed to have met standards relating to manufacturing and industrial production and low inflation, the Greeks were allowed in.
Funds poured into the country from across Europe and the Greeks started spending like there was no tomorrow.
Money flowed into all areas of public life. As a result, for example, the Greek school system is now an over-staffed shambles, employing four times more teachers per pupil than Finland, the country with the highest-rated education system in Europe. ‘But we still have to pay for tutors for our two children,’ says Helena, an Athens mother. ‘The teachers are hopeless — they seem to spend their time off sick.’
Although Brussels has now agreed to provide the next stage of its debt payment programme to safeguard the country’s immediate economic future, the Greek media still carries ominous warnings that the military may be forced to step in should the country’s foray into Europe end in ignominy, bankruptcy and rising violence.
For now, the crisis has simply been delayed. With European taxpayers facing the prospect of saving Greece from bankruptcy for the second year in a row, some say even the £100bn on offer will pay off only the interest on the country’s debts — meaning it will be broke again within two years.
Meanwhile, there are doom-laden warnings that the collapse of the Greek economy could be the catalyst for another global recession.
Perhaps if the Greeks themselves had shown more willingness to tighten their belts and pay taxes due to the state, voters across Europe might not now be feeling such anger towards them.

But having strolled the streets of Kifissia, and watched the Greek hordes stream past the honesty boxes on the underground, it does not take a degree in European economics to know when somebody is taking advantage — at our expense.

So Piak, are those observations being unfair? He was there for the olympics, so he corroborates the things he actually saw.

We just need to cut your country loose, maybe the Germans are just feeling guilty for invading your country in WWII and see this as 'reparations'? :cute:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-11-2011, 10:19:37
Reminds me of the Athen's metro about 1990. There was an inspector who caught two fare beaters. The two were seriously upset and shouted at the poor guy. How dare he demand that they pay a fare!

zmama
01-11-2011, 10:44:56
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/greeks-punch-gift-horse-in-the-face-201111014490/

"GREECE was condemned last night for punching a lovely horse right in its face.

The horse is also better at collecting income tax than anyone in Greece
Eyewitnesses said the animal, a gift from Europe to the former country, went down like a sack of potatoes.

Tom Logan, from Hatfield, added: "I went up to this Greek bloke and I was like, 'oi, there's no need for that - what's it ever done to you?'.

"And then he got all angry and said that the horse was full of Germans who would wait until everyone was asleep and then creep out of the horse and make sure everyone in Greece had enough money to buy a Volkswagen."

MOBIUS
01-11-2011, 11:50:49
:lol::lol::lol:

Funko
01-11-2011, 13:09:00
:lol:

Lurker
01-11-2011, 13:52:48
:D

MDA
01-11-2011, 13:57:11
:lol:

double laughs for the guvmint not blocking that

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-11-2011, 13:57:24
We should bring back the good old times. In the 19th century, Greece was bancrupt, and the creditor nations established a separate fund with independent tax revenue from Greece to service the debt. In a way, they split off the rest into a bad land.

So, hand over the debt and say the VAT revenue to that fund, administered by all those evil northern tax enforcers, and with the rest, do as you please. Free underground, a million unneeded public sector jobs, tax freedom for all, pensions for the dead, whatever. Just consider a little technicality: Nobody will lend you a dime.

Lurker
01-11-2011, 15:46:42
Dyl -- do you think the Euro will survive all of this?

Poison Arrow Frog
01-11-2011, 17:52:55
I'd guess it would survive but countries like Greece won't be in it when all is said and done.

Lazarus and the Gimp
01-11-2011, 17:58:39
It's about time Europe had a token 3rd World economy in it.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-11-2011, 19:26:40
Dyl -- do you think the Euro will survive all of this?

Sure. The question is just with how many member states. I'm quite optimistic that Italy and Spain will get their act together. As for Greece, that's increasingly hopeless.

Lurker
01-11-2011, 20:13:38
I guess the question is whether the Euro would survive without either Italy or Spain?

C.G.B. Spender
01-11-2011, 20:37:42
I would do anything to get cheaper ouzo

zmama
01-11-2011, 20:44:44
Marry Paiktis?

C.G.B. Spender
01-11-2011, 20:45:37
You got his number?

zmama
01-11-2011, 20:48:00
1296

C.G.B. Spender
01-11-2011, 20:49:00
Can you say that in greekish?

MOBIUS
01-11-2011, 21:30:02
€1,296,000,000,000,000... :cute:

Poison Arrow Frog
01-11-2011, 22:31:56
You got his number?

867-5309!

axLRUszuu9I

Funko
02-11-2011, 08:30:50
Having read some of the stuff about this now I can't understand why we let Greece in in the first place, we were mental?

zmama
02-11-2011, 08:32:21
they plied you with olives and ouzo?

Funko
02-11-2011, 08:35:13
Yeah, but as soon as a poor country joins the EU their delicious local delicacies suddenly become expensive. :(

Nills Lagerbaak
02-11-2011, 09:16:31
Weren't Goldman Sachs involved with their application to the EU and covered up the scale of their deficit? There is documented proof of this I believe.

Then again I think Germany and France broke the EU fiscal rules a few years before...

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-11-2011, 09:23:41
Yes, they cooked the books for EMU entry, and the other states didn't want to know.

Ceterum censeo GS esse delendam.

MOBIUS
02-11-2011, 10:11:44
Yeah, but as soon as a poor country joins the EU their delicious local delicacies suddenly become expensive. :(

Truly a lose lose situation... :(

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-11-2011, 14:18:00
And there goes Papandreou....

Funko
03-11-2011, 14:31:54
Pap goes the weasel.

Venom
03-11-2011, 14:40:12
More like referendumb! AM I RIGHT!?!? HUH!? HUH?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-11-2011, 14:40:38
JESJES!!

Funko
03-11-2011, 14:47:22
:lol:

mr_B
03-11-2011, 15:05:48
papalamelullos

Lurker
03-11-2011, 15:15:29
:lol: @ V.

Lazarus and the Gimp
03-11-2011, 17:41:22
Oh crap. They might not hold the referendum. That would blow using it as an excuse to kick the freeloaders out of the EU and ruling that Africa starts at the Balkans.

C.G.B. Spender
03-11-2011, 18:32:11
that a good thing?

MDA
03-11-2011, 18:34:54
not for Africa

bahdum-tish

Lazarus and the Gimp
03-11-2011, 18:39:44
It's just throwing good money after bad. Greece has institutional problems that will take at least a generation to fix, and they will default on the loans.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-11-2011, 18:49:04
I'm not so sure. If they default, they are cut off from lending sources for a long time. And the printing press is in Frankfurt. Bringing back the Drachma is fraught with problems of its own.

So it would mean instant budget balancing and I think it is exactly this fear that makes them try everything. If it works is another matter, ok....

C.G.B. Spender
03-11-2011, 18:56:00
so it's nukes again!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-11-2011, 19:01:48
Jawohl!

zmama
03-11-2011, 19:08:01
better make them tactical nukes, don't want to bomb the ouzo factory!

C.G.B. Spender
03-11-2011, 21:00:08
Ah, fuck ouzo, I just received a bottle of raki. Send in dem nukes!

C.G.B. Spender
04-11-2011, 18:53:50
That's so great.
Let's hope we can take down that german inspired EU. It's not worth a dime :D :cool:
pwned

mr_B
04-11-2011, 19:44:08
hahahahahahahahaha now that's funnier than funny
no it isn't
owja it isn't

Poison Arrow Frog
04-11-2011, 20:18:41
The Greek government will likely fall by this evening.

Poison Arrow Frog
05-11-2011, 02:08:52
Damn, it looks like he won a squeaker.

Poison Arrow Frog
06-11-2011, 05:43:26
If the Greeks don't leave the Euro they're going to have Bulgarian salaries with London prices.

paiktis
07-11-2011, 18:40:19
will it work?

MDA
07-11-2011, 18:46:39
swastikas are so 20th century

paiktis
07-11-2011, 18:49:11
same shit different name

MDA
07-11-2011, 19:04:10
right, the tanks, the burning and killing, the death camps

paiktis
07-11-2011, 19:09:42
this is done "economically" now.


mobius i didnt read all of it because i found inacuracies even from paragraph 1 and frankly i am upset about these things about nukes etc (i.e. fuck you zmama! and the others with a bit more of a difficulty).

paiktis
07-11-2011, 19:15:04
We should bring back the good old times. In the 19th century, Greece was bancrupt, and the creditor nations established a separate fund with independent tax revenue from Greece to service the debt. In a way, they split off the rest into a bad land.

So, hand over the debt and say the VAT revenue to that fund, administered by all those evil northern tax enforcers, and with the rest, do as you please. Free underground, a million unneeded public sector jobs, tax freedom for all, pensions for the dead, whatever. Just consider a little technicality: Nobody will lend you a dime.

That's bull!

We should start printing drachmas right now, default on all our debt, undervalue as much as needed. In two years, money will again begin flooding in. Opportunities are opportunities and the markets now that.

First, try and save italy next.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-11-2011, 19:18:14
You'll get a big fat inflation spiral that way. But go ahead, do it.

paiktis
07-11-2011, 19:24:04
have no illusion. this WILL be done.
It's just a matter of time.
No "gov" will be able to curtail the social uprising.

Contagion has succesfully been transmitted to italy and it won't stop there.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-11-2011, 19:28:08
Italy can help itself. You can't.

paiktis
07-11-2011, 19:29:31
This remains to be seen.. doesn't it? :D

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-11-2011, 20:01:25
No. It just remains to be seen whether Italy will actually help itself. Essentially, what comes after the Bungabungaguy.

paiktis
07-11-2011, 20:04:30
it's not the bungabunga guy. and it's not papandreou. it's a flawed system designed to help nazis and their zmama sympathizers.

anyway, we are here and we will see the results which will come from the people, not the "govs".

Poison Arrow Frog
07-11-2011, 20:14:49
Italy can help itself. You can't.

Well, technically, the Greek government could just stop spending so much. They won't but technically they could.

Mr. Bas
07-11-2011, 20:50:22
What's up with your sudden Nazi obsession, paiktis?

MDA
07-11-2011, 21:05:38
he's gone from "tenuous grip on reality" to "completely unhinged and scary"

zmama
07-11-2011, 21:16:29
it's not the bungabunga guy. and it's not papandreou. it's a flawed system designed to help nazis and their zmama sympathizers.

anyway, we are here and we will see the results which will come from the people, not the "govs".


Never knew I was so important! Kewl!!!:bouncmsk:

Lazarus and the Gimp
07-11-2011, 21:39:05
Quick! Make the most of this initial popularity! Invade Poland!

JM^3
07-11-2011, 23:29:40
The blog is interesting:

http://streetlightblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-really-caused-eurozone-crisis-part.html


It argues that the prime culprit in greek's woes is changes in investment by germans/etc and not some unusually high levels of waste/corruption/etc on the greeks part.

The argument is that german/etc investors made a lot of money on greece, and when difficulties arise they should pay for it since they benefited from it.

JM

Lurker
07-11-2011, 23:55:56
I didn't read the article, but if the Germans made a lot of money from investing, don't they also stand to be the big losers when it all tanks?

Fistandantilus
08-11-2011, 00:20:55
it's not the bungabunga guy. and it's not papandreou. it's a flawed system designed to help nazis and their zmama sympathizers.


I don't know about papandreou but I'm well aware of the things the bungabunga guy proposed/made in these years and I think someone more concerned about reforming italy and less about finding a way not to end up in jail would be better.

Lazarus and the Gimp
08-11-2011, 06:38:36
The blog is interesting:

http://streetlightblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-really-caused-eurozone-crisis-part.html


It argues that the prime culprit in greek's woes is changes in investment by germans/etc and not some unusually high levels of waste/corruption/etc on the greeks part.




In other words, Greece is like one of those people who say the reason why they are poor today is that they won the lottery a few years ago.

C.G.B. Spender
08-11-2011, 06:41:55
What's up with your sudden Nazi obsession, paiktis?
"Nazi" always adds elemental weight to your point! Same with "ugly" ... and if you disagree, you join the nazi's ranks.
It only works well when used in politics, otherwise use "gay".

JM^3
08-11-2011, 07:21:44
In other words, Greece is like one of those people who say the reason why they are poor today is that they won the lottery a few years ago.

I think the argument is that a huge amount of investment for a couple of years, followed by a sudden stop, is destabilizing.

It is based on the point that it is current account deficits which seem to be correlated to having a crisis, not fiscal deficits.

JM

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-11-2011, 07:50:01
The blog is interesting:

http://streetlightblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-really-caused-eurozone-crisis-part.html


It argues that the prime culprit in greek's woes is changes in investment by germans/etc and not some unusually high levels of waste/corruption/etc on the greeks part.

The argument is that german/etc investors made a lot of money on greece, and when difficulties arise they should pay for it since they benefited from it.

JM

It's pretty clear that current account deficits are the main problem. That's also one advantage Italy has - her deficits are mostly financed domestically.

But as a matter of accounting identities, the CA deficit reflects the deficits/surplusses of the public, household and business sector. The state of Greece has been heavily borrowing abroad and most inflows have been going into consumption. Compare the 10%/gdp CA deficit with the trivial 2%/gdp rise in capital formation. And that is clearly not sustainable.

The capital flows would have been a big chance as Laz says - unless you blow it all.

Funko
08-11-2011, 08:29:11
In other words, Greece is like one of those people who say the reason why they are poor today is that they won the lottery a few years ago.

:beer:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-11-2011, 08:40:56
Paiktis will soon explain how the Lottery is a nazi tool for the enslavement of poor Grecians.

Poison Arrow Frog
08-11-2011, 08:47:13
It argues that the prime culprit in greek's woes is changes in investment by germans/etc and not some unusually high levels of waste/corruption/etc on the greeks part.


OK, that's where it goes wrong. When 90% of the population are tax cheats (like the Greek aversion to paying the tax on swimming pools even though Google Earth shows huge numbers of Athenians have swimming pools) then the problem is the huge majority of them are tax cheats. Well, that and their government consistently spends vastly more than is acceptable even among western debtor nations.

They take in to little in taxes, they spend to much, and their economy produces to little. Part of that is the Greek economy joined the Euro at too high an exchange rate, part of that is they're too undeveloped to ever reasonably have joined the Euro, and part of it is Greeks are just retards or at least they elect retards because they don't like hearing from people who tell them the truth. Either way they made their own bed and now they need to sleep in it.

Poison Arrow Frog
08-11-2011, 08:52:56
"Nazi" always adds elemental weight to your point! Same with "ugly" ... and if you disagree, you join the nazi's ranks.
It only works well when used in politics, otherwise use "gay".

Shut up, you Nazi! We know your grandfather was a goose stepper... And he stole Dutch bicycles. :bouncmsk:

JM^3
08-11-2011, 10:20:52
It's pretty clear that current account deficits are the main problem. That's also one advantage Italy has - her deficits are mostly financed domestically.

But as a matter of accounting identities, the CA deficit reflects the deficits/surplusses of the public, household and business sector. The state of Greece has been heavily borrowing abroad and most inflows have been going into consumption. Compare the 10%/gdp CA deficit with the trivial 2%/gdp rise in capital formation. And that is clearly not sustainable.

The capital flows would have been a big chance as Laz says - unless you blow it all.

But that isn't what the blog says.

The blog says that the consumption actually dropped by 3%(compared to pre euro-levels), and so the inflows were not going to consumption.

Additionally, it says that capital formation increased by the aforementioned 2%.

Is the blog wrong?

JM

Ghengis Keith
08-11-2011, 10:21:55
The Greeks should heed my advice, It is not sufficient that I succeed - all others must fail.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-11-2011, 10:31:13
But that isn't what the blog says.

The blog says that the consumption actually dropped by 3%(compared to pre euro-levels), and so the inflows were not going to consumption.

Additionally, it says that capital formation increased by the aforementioned 2%.

Is the blog wrong?

JM

I haven't checked the numbers, but if they are right they show what I have said. Let's say we start at 100 for domestic purchases, and then we prop this up with another 10 through a CA deficit.

Now investment goes from 16 (16% of 100) to 19.8 (18% of 110). Consumption (I suppose public sector consumption is the residual missing in his numbers) goes from 84 to 90.2.

Or put differently, you're investing 3.80€ out of 10€ you borrow. The return on your investment will have to serve interest and principal on the 10€. Won't work.

JM^3
08-11-2011, 10:56:22
Yeah, obviously that is the case if he is missing some part of consumption.

That wasn't what I understood though. My understanding is that both private and public consumption are included with the falling number.

He doesn't address where the rest would have gone...

JM

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-11-2011, 11:07:15
If he is talking domestic purchases, there can be no rest. Maybe public investment is missing too - or its part of investment. Maybe I'll check eurostat later.

JM^3
08-11-2011, 11:08:42
consumption:
73.2->76.67 (+3.47)
capital:
14.9->18.48 (+3.58)
=====
+7.05

CA= -8.4

There is 1.35 that is 'mysterious'.

Obviously they should be investing more of what they borrowed, but I would think that one would expect total consumption to increase when more money is being spent?

If everything went into capital investment (clearly not what one should expect), you would get a ~5% increase in capital as a percent of gdp.

JM

zmama
08-11-2011, 11:37:56
Alle deine Base sind gehören zu uns! !!!!!

MDA
08-11-2011, 11:48:05
Shut up, you Nazi! We know your grandfather was a goose stepper... And he stole Dutch bicycles. :bouncmsk:

I heard he was caught smelling the seats.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-11-2011, 11:59:47
Ok, here's gross capital formation, greece, % of gdp 2001-2011

21.6
22.5
23.3
22.0
20.7
23.7
24.0
22.1
19.1
16.6
14.4

And current account deficit 2001-2010, billion €:

-10.580 -10.201 -11.266 -10.718 -14.744 -23.748 -32.577 -34.798 -25.814 -22.971

So we have the CA deficit exploding from 2004 (11 bln) to 2007 (33 bln), while investment went from 41 to 53 bln. So again, about half of the increase went into investment. Running about 5-10% of gdp as a ca deficit for consumption simply cannot work.

In 2010, the CA deficit was 23 bln; investment was just 32 bln in 2011.

JM^3
08-11-2011, 12:04:37
His numbers appear suspect.

What level do you think is necessary, near 100%? Should this be included when banks/etc decide to lend to a country/people in a country?

JM

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-11-2011, 12:20:27
He's using different time frames and different reference points. The nrs may be correct, but they hide the very specific pattern between 2004/07. Greece became part of the eurozone in 2001.

What level: Depends on the situation. If you start with a high ca deficit and a medium investment rate as Greece, yes, it should be close to 100%.

As for the banks: Due diligence for single loans would suffice. But the banksters run in hordes: first into losses, than to the taxpayers.

Poison Arrow Frog
08-11-2011, 17:32:00
Great article: http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-bearing-bonds-201010

Poison Arrow Frog
08-11-2011, 19:06:16
I especially liked the part where it explains how Goldman-Sachs helped the Greek government create deliberately fraudulent accounting reports so they could hide their debt. It's pretty telling that if you added up all of the official Greek deficits from the last 15 years you get less than half of the actual Greek national debt incurred during that time. Then there is the simply sad part about how something like 80% of Greeks cheat on their taxes including all 300 MPs.

They're hopelessly corrupt so it's time to set them loose so they can sink back to 3rd world status where they collectively belong.

Fistandantilus
08-11-2011, 19:35:56
And now Berlusconi resigns, we'll see what happens.

Lurker
08-11-2011, 19:38:03
But the banksters run in hordes: first into losses, than to the taxpayers.

:D (Deserved quoting).

zmama
08-11-2011, 19:57:17
And to quote my dear dear nazi

"Alle deine Base sind gehören zu uns!"

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-11-2011, 20:00:11
Und den Nutstück gut geschlunzt.

zmama
08-11-2011, 21:13:31
AIZKZ3C1ML8

MDA
08-11-2011, 23:25:34
I think maybe that guy's got his nuts stuck between his ears.

Alexander the G
09-11-2011, 00:46:34
like all guys?

Ghengis Keith
09-11-2011, 08:55:29
Speak for yourself manslut.

Vlad the Inhaler
09-11-2011, 10:00:09
You both need a good poking!

Gaylord
09-11-2011, 18:59:28
oooh, I want poking too

MDA
09-11-2011, 20:56:02
sweet, you've got tentacles!