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paiktis
05-09-2011, 19:25:29
I've been talking to this woman who grew up abroad (in england as it were) and we were discussing quality of life in different countries.

one thing that particulalry stood out is a significant difference of mentality in what regards integrity and scum-artist-stry. conning the other, i don't know how else to say it.

and it is widely accepted also by a friend who was married to a dutchie girl that greek people have a very screwed up view of what constitutes "smart".

Smart, for them, is to con, deceit, lie, bend rules - all for personal gain.
That woman told me that in england for example, such silly con-artistry (a kind of stupid-clever thing) is frowned upon.

The guy who cheats his tax agency for example (and pays less taxes) is not regarded as someone who has done a cool thing. Whereas in Greece he is regarded as exactly that.

The quality of services provided by the state, the lack of social justice in the true meaning of the word perhaps gives birth to this glorification of the scum artist.

However the mentality difference remains, and one can throw billions of euros, but unless this changes, it will do minimum good I think.

It's an interesting observation nonetheless, assuming it stands (assuming for example that someone who cheats his tax revenue service in england is NOT regarded as a cool guy).

Also we were talking with the SO about what egoism is. She said it's what greeks are. I disagree. An egoist fights for his own good, and own good alone.
By scumming society you are not being an egoist but a wanker. And that is because it will come back to bite you in the ass. Therefore, people who are promoting society by respecting the rules etc are the real egoistic ones. And that's because ultimately they are ameliorating their own way of life, as a whole, in a way that cannot be done any other way (at least for so many people and on a significant level).

That leaves open the question though: is it the state who creates assholes, or the other way round.

Funko
06-09-2011, 07:28:50
I think you mean Scam Artist. But yes that kind of thing is certainly frowned upon here, although you find politicians publicly being massively outraged at the person scamming 100 a week on benefits, but strangely benevolent towards the billionaire who exploits tax loopholes to pay virtually no tax.

mr_B
06-09-2011, 09:05:19
“Grieken houden er niet van verplichtingen te hebben of verantwoording af te leggen. Ze ervaren dat als een aantasting van hun vrijheid. Ze willen best iets beloven, maar willen daar geen verplichting aan overhouden.” En verder stelt ze: “Zelf zijn de Grieken ook zeer sceptisch over verbale uitingen van andere mensen. Ze gaan er van uit dat mensen niet doen wat ze zeggen. Buiten de eigen familie wantrouwen Grieken elkaar diep.” by Renee Hirschon prof. at Oxford
-FACT

mr_B
06-09-2011, 09:08:19
translation: Greeks do not like to have obligations or accountability. They see this as an attack on their freedom. They do want to promise anything, but would have no obligation to hold on. "And then she says:" Even the Greeks are also very skeptical of verbal expressions of others. They assume that people do not do what they say. Outside the family deeply distrust each other Greeks

Funko
06-09-2011, 09:25:12
Which is bizarre considering the history of Greek democracy.

mr_B
06-09-2011, 10:12:30
now it's Greek democrazy
the real democrats live in Norway nowadays

Cheshire Cat
06-09-2011, 10:59:44
...you are not being an egoist but a wanker. And that is because it will come back to bite you in the ass.

I don't get the metaphor

I wank a lot, but I never got bitten back in the ass then

Beta1
06-09-2011, 21:15:01
I've been talking to this woman who grew up abroad (in england as it were) and we were discussing quality of life in different countries.


You've got it the wrong way around - she grew up in England - its you who grew up abroad.

(Since we are talking about English attitudes :p )

Funko
07-09-2011, 07:33:27
:lol:

mr_B
07-09-2011, 08:10:36
:lol:

paiktis
07-09-2011, 14:57:57
This is a very interesting topic for me :)

By the metaphor I mean that by scamming (thx Funko) society you eventually scam yourself.
So it is true that in england it IS frowned upon. That's interesting.
In other countries? I assume in dutchieland it is the same.


MR B! There is a well documented mistrust of the greek state. To be suspicious is the norm here, that's true.

If we are talking about a shot at nation building, this is at the core of things.
Anyway I predict more riots to come, but there has to be a balance of trust between the citizen and the state or I don't know what else can be done. But that's a very big change.

Don't want to sound prejudist but it's true that the scandinavians I've met had an innosense that had baffled me and excited me and was completely different than the train of thought and mentality that I am used to see here.

Some voices say that it is the state services that are so poor and the laws so screwed and that's why there's such a huge tax evasion.
I read a columnist who said that unless the state starts being responsible those attitudes won't change.
I think that up untill now that status quo was able to sustain itself, but now it becomes nearly impossible.
I'm very worried and pessimist about the future though.

mr_B
07-09-2011, 15:06:13
the weather sucks in Norway
never mind the weather

paiktis
07-09-2011, 15:45:27
What she said is crap though. You trust or don't trust just like anywhere else. It's what the other strikes you as, as trustworthy or not trustworthy.
About attitudes towards the state there is mistrust but towards the other, it depends.

Funko
07-09-2011, 15:46:45
Problem is, if no-one trusts the system, the system will eventually collapse.

paiktis
07-09-2011, 15:48:57
I agree and I think that's exactly what's happenning...

Cheshire Cat
08-09-2011, 08:45:22
By the metaphor I mean that by scamming (thx Funko) society you eventually scam yourself.


I got THAT part.
I didn't understand the first part of the analogy
(I was seriously joking)
;)

wanking bites you back in the ass [????????????????????]
=
scamming society you scam yourself [so true]

:p

Fistandantilus
08-09-2011, 10:13:55
Problem is, if no-one trusts the system, the system will eventually collapse.

There will always be someone who takes advantage of the system and so support it.

VetLegion_
10-09-2011, 23:02:07
Paiktis, you're stumbling upon something which is rather well known
in economics, sociology, etc. Different societies have different cultures.

In a homogenous, high-trust society like Norway or Sweden you can
get away with all sorts of weird policies which would bankrupt other
societies. For example, you can give generous welfare aid to the unemployed,
because it's shameful for people to be unemployed and live off that help if
there is any way at all for them to avoid it.

In Croatia (and Greece probably) it's not considered shameful to exploit
holes in the system for one's betterment at the expense of the rest of
society.

The proper cure for that is reducing the size of the state. It is not trying
to fix the state. The state here is unfixable, so it has to be removed
from as many areas as possible.

Poison Arrow Frog
11-09-2011, 03:23:45
Greece needs to start shooting tax cheats and welfare queens.

paiktis
16-09-2011, 19:00:06
vetty i didnt read all of it. but i come to realize.

there IS sense that we fought against nazism and you embraced it.


nomatter hwta happens you are whores, we are something... nobler


and we could be banlrupt, engage in war with turkey (in the very short term) but still something much nobler.... than croati... germanyy finland... norway... something much better....

paiktis
16-09-2011, 19:02:15
and we should start shooting tax cheats but we WONT.

akltought we souyld

the valu of a nation or people doesnt count on the money.

asn we will fuck up the whole eurozone, or no exit

paiktis
16-09-2011, 19:11:53
personally im ready for national socialism or communism. burn up upper class, parliement and external enemies.
if those fucks of nazis want to fuck with us BRING IT THE FUCK ON.

No salvation for the eurozone. burn the fucker up. we won't live like croatians or other eastern europeans. so FUCK YOU! mother cunters
motherfucker
peace

paiktis
16-09-2011, 19:14:11
serbs used to cut off the balls of nazi scums and sent it to hitler while you carressed nazi ass.

motherfuckers. bring it on and test greeks

we'll fuck you up and sing

(i'm alittle drunk but essence remains)

paiktis
16-09-2011, 19:19:22
becuase the way i see it, parliement has lost AAAALL legitimacy, we are not argentina, we'll take the whole bordelo DOWN

chopped off heads in front of parliement, while fucking up turks in the same time.
fuck europe. we invented it. one nation united agaisnt NAZI PROTESTANt SCUM
(catholics are cute and dum like bunnies)

Fistandantilus
16-09-2011, 22:25:23
you are drunk aren't you? The tirade against croats is quality :lol:

paiktis
16-09-2011, 22:28:27
yeah im very drunk :lol:

fuck em, i am neutral towards them. they were nice though for what they are


a little piece


i got off zagreb airport bus


kind of looked aaround like you know a clueless tourist


a drunk (there are many there) approaches me

asks: italiano?

i say: no greco


he imideately drops his smile but he still finds the courage to tell me how much he admires spartans :D


all together, all together DOWN!
fuck eurozone unless the money stays. who made the nazis peacekeepers of europe

OK maybe this is a bit harsh

(im starting to get dedrunk and hangover)

still fuck them though. legitimately.

Fistandantilus
16-09-2011, 22:34:20
Spartans? He admires the non democratic part of Greece? :lol:

paiktis
16-09-2011, 22:38:15
i think he just searched for something nice to say and that's what popped in his mind
it's the intention that counts :D

Fistandantilus
16-09-2011, 22:38:40
Yeah! To Greece :beer:

paiktis
16-09-2011, 22:40:07
motherfuckers i'll fuck your solidarity up the ass!


but yey to IDEALS. not greece :)

paiktis
16-09-2011, 22:41:06
DEMOCRATIC LEGITIMACY. SOCIAL JUSTICE. FREEDOM. FUCK NAZIS

RedFred
17-09-2011, 02:13:55
SPARTANS!? My brain is forever branded by a computer game from the distant past.

paiktis
17-09-2011, 11:56:28
wow... alcohol=rage=embarassment