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paiktis
06-03-2011, 12:56:15
There was a ship with 1.200 bangladesh citizens that fled with greek ships that were provided by the gov. from libya to crete.
When the ship approached crete, close to a nato military base, 50 of them jumped off the ship.
The result is 16+ drawned and died.
........

300 immigrants are staging with the help of far left groups a very dangerous hunger strike that has now reached day 41.
half of them have been hospitalized.
their item is to be legalized.
maybe there will be a death there as well because the gov. said that this is out of the question.
it is offering a 6 month extention of stay that can be renewed but they don't take it. they say legalization or death.
far left wing groups are blocking direct communication between the gov. and the hunger strikers.
around 1million illegals in a pop of 10 million and counting.

we should return to the drachma and get out of the eu, become a balkan state again so noone would want to come here!

it's such tragedy.

the far left wing has now identified illegal immigration as its main focus point.
meanwhile the city is overfled with illegal immigrants and the social fabric has collapsed.
between a rock and a hard place.

VetLegion_
06-03-2011, 23:56:31
Greece out of EU? :funko:

Sounds like a plan!

You are bankrupt already, it's just a matter of somebody admitting it to the public I guess.

Greg W
07-03-2011, 01:45:12
Knowing very little about the EU and how member states within it work, will that really have that big a change on anything?

paiktis
07-03-2011, 07:59:49
It would change a great amount of things. It would be the first time a member state leaves the EU. That could have repercussions, on a wider european spectrum but if we're talking about Greece here, yes there would be many changes.

Getting out of the EU would mean we revert to our own national currency and reclaim monetary autonomy. But that would be a very bloody road indeed because all loans are denominated in the euro currency and when the drachma returns it would be automatically undervalued many times over. That would mean that the loans would quadriple in value and would be even harder to manage.

The positive view of this is that if we reclaim monetary autonomy we would have many more options to kick start a development phase of the economy which now, with the EU and the IMF is virtually impossible to do. The IMF measures have led to an unprecedented suffocation of the economy. There is no growth, whatsoever, anywhere.
There is no cash liquidity in the market.

Getting out of the EU would also mean getting out of the Shengen Agreement. That would mean that we could much more forcibly "move" immigration to other member states of the EU. Now there are a lot of blocades to reward asylum to immigrants because that would mean that they would have the right to travel wherever they want inside the EU. So there is massive pressure from the EU not to give asylum status to virtually anyone. Plus all gateways to the west are very carefully guarded to stop immigration flowing westward. If we get out of the EU such measures would not be so strict. We could simply become a transit point for african and asian immigration. Much like Turkey is.

Another thing is that we would get out of the German/French economic model that is being pushed throughout the EU. I doubt we can manage to adopt it.

These are the positive things. There are hugely negative things in leaving the EU too.
The drachma would flunctuate widely, credibility in the markets would plummet at least in the short term.
Whatever alliance we have with the west would diminish very substantially. In the balkans, that's not a good idea.
We would forgo our right to travel anywhere in Europe without passport. There will be no EU aid funding whatsoever.

MOBIUS
07-03-2011, 15:00:03
Is the far left also on hunger strike to show solidary?

Is this also a not so subtle attempt to draw attention to the rising price of food?

paiktis
07-03-2011, 15:50:05
he, no the far left wing does not participate in the hunger strike.

There's something of a mania gripping the far left wing. I suppose, when the unemployment has reached these highs, when the basic pay is just 700 euros in the private sector, young people think they have no future.
Well they don't really.

Bu there is a loooooooong tradition of guerilla warfare here, 2WW, civil war..... even dictatorship.

To be frank I think their rational is to simply create mayhem as a responce to what they see as huge irresponsibility from the political elite.
Maybe they are right?

If a kid screams icecream maybe sometime they will give it to him?

But my approach is different.
I was walking with a friend amongst the burning ruins of athens in 2008. Places we knew burned to the ground.
We said. We didn't have good jobs. We persevered. We didn't have much. we tried to make it. We did not burn anything.
Why are these people think they are entitiled to do that?
Greece will move to the west nomatter the blood. Because we want freedom and we want meritocracy and we will have it in the end godamit.

VetLegion_
22-03-2011, 08:31:42
Well, even 700 euros might be too high for Greek level of productivity.

In the end, it has to be:

you spend = you produce

That is, Greeks cannot have 2000 euro salaries simply because they
don't produce 2000 euros worth of goods and services. Simple.

And I would not blame the political elite. I would blame the people, all
of them, who thought they were entitled to have the same standard of
living as, say, Germans, just because they work 8 hours as the Jerry does.
Nobody told them that Jerry is twice as productive in those 8 hours.

BTW what ruins of Athens in 2008? Athens was fine until 2010, no?

VetLegion_
22-03-2011, 08:33:26
BTW, how is IMF suffocating growth?

Oerdin
22-03-2011, 10:05:20
No doubt by demanding they balance their budget instead of borrowing ever more. ;)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-03-2011, 11:13:26
Some points are correct, some confused, and this is clearly wrong:

"Now there are a lot of blocades to reward asylum to immigrants because that would mean that they would have the right to travel wherever they want inside the EU."

No free movement for asylum seekers or even recognized refugees within the EU or the Schengen area.

VetLegion_
26-03-2011, 03:45:53
It's interesting to compare Greece with the Baltic countries. In the last two years they experienced sharp declines in the standard of living, high unemployment and really harsh austerity measures.

Protests, riots...? None!

On the other hand Greeks are not willing to do any sacrifices... they are after all entitled to good life, in their opinion.

This is why the Baltics eventually will become one of the richest regions of Europe (again)... and why Greece is going to vie for the last place with Bosnia and Moldavia.

Sad, sad...

Fistandantilus
26-03-2011, 04:49:36
Baltic countries as in Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania?

VetLegion_
27-03-2011, 03:42:30
Yep.

RedFred
27-03-2011, 05:04:19
The Baltic and the Mediterranean economies are closely linked. I am pretty sure you can't put up a hotel at one without putting up a hotel at the other.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
27-03-2011, 16:10:18
Well you can, but the earth will crash into the sun.

zmama
27-03-2011, 16:45:30
And this is bad?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
28-03-2011, 07:16:32
I didn't say that.

Oerdin
28-03-2011, 09:35:52
Technically the sun will expand to envelop the Earth.

Funko
28-03-2011, 09:38:20
It might not actually envelop the Earth. We aren't sure yet.

Earth's biosphere will certainly be destroyed though.

Serb
28-03-2011, 19:25:07
Just my three cents:


a) F*ck you, NATO.
b) Hands off from Lybia.
) Hi, Paiktis!

Serb
28-03-2011, 20:24:19
It's interesting to compare Greece with the Baltic countries. In the last two years they experienced sharp declines in the standard of living, high unemployment and really harsh austerity measures.

Protests, riots...? None!

Sure thing. They have a regular nazi Waffen-SS parades in their capitals instead of protests. Every year nazi f*ckers marchs through the streets of their capitals (thanks to the support of the local pro-nazi governments) and the local police throw to the jail only anti-nazis as the result.
Way to go, Europe, way to go. Eyes Wide Shut :bash:
No riots, my ass.

On the other hand Greeks are not willing to do any sacrifices... they are after all entitled to good life, in their opinion.
This is why the Baltics eventually will become one of the richest regions of Europe (again)...
AGAIN? you must be sh!tting me, right? Like they were ever in their history independent for enough period of time to show ANY progress.

WTF are you talking about, buddy? The Baltic States were NEVER, ONCE AGAIN - NEVER the richest regions of Europe (not to mention their "soverignety" measured by two decades, with exception of Lithuania, of course).

Serb
28-03-2011, 20:25:40
It might not actually envelop the Earth. We aren't sure yet.

Earth's biosphere will certainly be destroyed though.

Thanks for the good news.

Serb
28-03-2011, 20:27:59
Paiktis, bro, IMF must die.

They are a bunch of motherf*ckers. Trust me, we have already tested their recipes on our own skin in 90's. F*ck those f*ckers.

Asher
28-03-2011, 21:52:49
Just my three cents:


a) F*ck you, NATO.
b) Hands off from Lybia.
) Hi, Paiktis!

Serb :b:

Serb
28-03-2011, 22:07:11
Hi, Asher.

Asher
29-03-2011, 01:27:44
Hello.

Serb
29-03-2011, 01:43:39
How you doing?

Jagr didn't help us, again (It's his third or fourth season in my city, I don't remember. But I guess the last one). We've been kicked out from play-offs in the 7th game of the semi-finals of our conference.:cry: Though we won the regular championship for the first time in our history (It's a pain that the only game of the season when we didn't score at all was this 7th game of the semis. Can you imagine such kind of bullsh!t?). Not that I expect you care a sh!t about the KHL or how we doing there of course. Nevermind, I hope you are doing better (I don't watch NHL, 'cause I don't care:p ).

Asher
29-03-2011, 02:24:57
My team is doing worse. :(

RedFred
29-03-2011, 04:22:04
Easily one of the top two teams to come out of Atlanta though.

Funko
29-03-2011, 07:27:33
Thanks for the good news.

It's ok, you'll have been dead for millions of years before that happens.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-03-2011, 09:40:43
Even more good news.

MDA
29-03-2011, 11:25:25
The Baltic and the Mediterranean economies are closely linked. I am pretty sure you can't put up a hotel at one without putting up a hotel at the other.

:lol:

so sad that I got this immediately, but can't remember driving to work this morning

VetLegion_
29-03-2011, 20:41:20
Sure thing. They have a regular nazi Waffen-SS parades in their capitals instead of protests. Every year nazi f*ckers marchs through the streets of their capitals (thanks to the support of the local pro-nazi governments) and the local police throw to the jail only anti-nazis as the result.
Way to go, Europe, way to go. Eyes Wide Shut :bash:
No riots, my ass.


I support freedom of speech, therefore I think that everyone should be
allowed to march in whatever nonviolent parade he wishes. This is true
in the USA, unfortunately not true in most of Europe.

AGAIN? you must be sh!tting me, right? Like they were ever in their history independent for enough period of time to show ANY progress.

WTF are you talking about, buddy? The Baltic States were NEVER, ONCE AGAIN - NEVER the richest regions of Europe (not to mention their "soverignety" measured by two decades, with exception of Lithuania, of course).

Independence is not necessary. You can be a rich region if you are independent
but you can also be rich within some political entity.

They were prosperous during Hanseatic League, but also later, all the
way until the Bolsheviks. You see, they were port cities and they prospered
on the rather well developed Baltic trade.

Only with the Bolsheviks does the real and proper decline of the Baltic
countries begin. And even then, I bet they were probably more prosperous
than 99% of the Soviet Union. Accumulated capital, but also, traditions,
ethics and customs die hard.

The Mad Monk
30-03-2011, 00:38:35
It might not actually envelop the Earth. We aren't sure yet.

Earth's biosphere will certainly be destroyed though.


Somehow I first read it as "blogosphere".

Funko
30-03-2011, 07:24:27
:lol:

They'll be the first to go.

Cheshire Cat
30-03-2011, 09:50:01
...Baltic countries ... die hard

...Brusas Willonis?

VetLegion_
30-03-2011, 16:34:40
:lol:

Serb
02-04-2011, 18:53:58
It's ok, you'll have been dead for millions of years before that happens.

Billions of years, actually.

Serb
02-04-2011, 19:02:48
I support freedom of speech, therefore I think that everyone should beallowed to march in whatever nonviolent parade he wishes. This is true in the USA, unfortunately not true in most of Europe.

So, when let's say a whole bunch of pedophiles, rapists and murderers march through your city and shout "We are PROUD that we have raped and then killed your children and soon we will do it again", it's OK in accordance with your "freedom of speech" concept, right?
Bullsh!t.

Independence is not necessary. You can be a rich region if you are independent
but you can also be rich within some political entity.

They were prosperous during Hanseatic League, but also later, all the
way until the Bolsheviks. You see, they were port cities and they prospered
on the rather well developed Baltic trade.

Only with the Bolsheviks does the real and proper decline of the Baltic
countries begin. And even then, I bet they were probably more prosperous
than 99% of the Soviet Union. Accumulated capital, but also, traditions,
ethics and customs die hard.
I don't know where you get this bullsh!t, buddy. Wake-up already. WHAT countries exactly are you talking about? Hanseatic League, my as$. You play Europe Universalis too much.

The Mad Monk
02-04-2011, 19:33:17
Serb, are you aware of NAMBLA?

Serb
02-04-2011, 20:30:18
Now I am, thanks to wiki. Sick motherfuckers. Do they have parades? Do they proclaim that it's ok to rape and murder children?

No matter how sick those f*ckers are the waffen-SS veterans a thousand times worse. They are:
a) real war criminals, who really raped and slaughtered civilians on the mass-scale.
b) carriers of inhuman nazi ideology
c) they openly agitate for extermination of people of different nationality, it is their only goal GOD DAMN IT.

This is just sick. And F*CK YOU and F*CK your so-called freedom of speech if it allows such movements.

Idiots. Some humans never learn from history.

paiktis
16-04-2011, 12:13:53
Hey Serb!
To return to the discussion, Thanks dyl for pointing out that thing about EU asylum seekers not having the right to travel anywhere regardless.
Well the situation as I see it is this. There is probably going to be a restructuring of the debt and maybe that won't happen without serious casualties.

The main problem is the unemployment rate that has now reached 15,1% (I think it's a post WW2 record).
Another is that the IMF recipee does not work. That has become plain as day. But there is no other way to reach the markets for credit.

I believe that either there is going to be a european solution to this problem (most certaintly with the eurobond) or there is not going to be a solution at all.
A lot of analysis show that the pain of leaving the EU is about the same as staying in it. Plus with the latter senario there is going to be huge turbulence in the short term. Eventually an equilibrium would be reached but that would not necessairily leave us in a better state that we are now.

OTOH one has to admit that lifting all restrictions and having a porsche like economy such as germany compete with a car and horse economy such as greece, well you can see who will win.
And when there are no trade restrictions no protectionism whatsoever that porsche like economy can do as it pleases and conquer many markets.
In general I am against protectionism but there has to be a hard look at reality here.
There has to be a redestribution of wealth if this thing we call EU is going to continue existing.
I believe that besides all the valid arguments about the abolishion in part of democracy in front of beastly markets and besides all the economic talk it all comes down to a political decision on the part of germany (but i think merkel's leaving anyway) and other countries wether there is still a will to keep the EU.

If such a will exists, a political solution should be given probably in the form of a eurobond and structural changes in greece and other places should continue to happen under that aegis.

although i should add that the structural changes momentum has now been stiffled because there really is disaster anywhere you look. as a side not for example, my mother has filed for pension and is now 6 months overdue. needless to say if family structure didn't exist like it exists in med countries, most societies would have imploded.
to come back to the structural changes, i believe that what is even worse than the substantial cut backs in salaries, standard of living etc is that grip of hopelessness that exists and has also suffocated any initiative.

also, not that it matters to you, but it matters to me as a greek citizen, greek citizens in general are not overdebted. it is the state that has borrowed like there was no tomorrow. and it was known in the commission. it all went crazy with the change of gov. when the "socialists" came to power. in some degree greece IS being used as a scapegoat for what is a much more general shift in priorities I believe. we are 2% of EU economy but have become a battlefield again :P
the state debt is unbelievable it's true. i guess it takes huge talent to build it that high.
although i'd repeat something maroule has said, politicians did buy our conscent with our children's money - in many countries.
and there really, really is a need for a bit more strict regulation of the markets. before bush i don't think cds's had such freedom or speed as weere given by law.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
16-04-2011, 12:34:01
"OTOH one has to admit that lifting all restrictions and having a porsche like economy such as germany compete with a car and horse economy such as greece, well you can see who will win."

Greece has become a member of the then EC in 1981. The problem is much younger, essentially too much wage moderation in Germany, too little in the southern countries.

As to greek citizens not being overdebted, the problem is not the public debt level, but foreign debt. Italy has a high debtload, but it's mostly funded domesticly.

"the substantial cut backs in salaries, standard of living" is coming either way. Inside the EU, less euros. Outside the EU, inflation and a devalued currency.

paiktis
17-04-2011, 10:32:58
Looking at it only through the perspective of wage moderation is a very "german" way of looking at it. it leaves out a whole spectrum of things. and in no way it annules the porsche and car and horse in free markets argument...
it was this way in 1981 it still is and it probably will be for the foreseable future

for the foreign vs domestic debt, I think the problem is that the debt, in whoemever hands it is, it cannot be payed back...

"the substantial cut backs in salaries, standard of living" is coming either way. Inside the EU, less euros. Outside the EU, inflation and a devalued currency.

this is very true i think. but an officially bankrupt greece would have wider repercussions and the markets will move on to other countries and other countries untill the EU is no more. If there is no redistribution of wealth there is no use in keeping markets open under such differences of competitiveness?

The Mad Monk
21-04-2011, 22:41:25
Now I am, thanks to wiki. Sick motherfuckers. Do they have parades? Do they proclaim that it's ok to rape and murder children?

No matter how sick those f*ckers are the waffen-SS veterans a thousand times worse. They are:
a) real war criminals, who really raped and slaughtered civilians on the mass-scale.
b) carriers of inhuman nazi ideology
c) they openly agitate for extermination of people of different nationality, it is their only goal GOD DAMN IT.

This is just sick. And F*CK YOU and F*CK your so-called freedom of speech if it allows such movements.

Idiots. Some humans never learn from history.

You are correct, some never do.

Isn't nice how in our system, they do all the work of identifying themselves for us, so we know who the nutjobs are?

MDA
22-04-2011, 11:14:45
o/c, then it's easy to know who to vote for

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-04-2011, 13:48:56
You get a system of nutjobs so you can't tell the nutjobs from the nutjobs.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
23-04-2011, 02:15:28
Seems like there should be a "Yo dawg..." in there somewhere.

VetLegion_
29-04-2011, 03:32:00
This is just sick. And F*CK YOU and F*CK your so-called freedom of speech if it allows such movements.

Idiots. Some humans never learn from history.

I do support nonviolent expression of thought in the extreme, so yes.

I know free speech (or freedom in general) is a very un-Russian thing,
so the concept seems rather odd to you.

Here's the libertarian position on that: basically, right to free speech is
not really a right in itself. It is based on property rights, that is, right to
property in land. You can say whatever you want on your turf, but I
can decide not to let you on my property if you intend to talk about
something I don't like.

In cities which have public spaces, roads, etc, the joint owners should have
the right to decide who can use those spaces and on what terms. It could
vary from place to place. Some could allow road usage on the condition that
you never utter the word "abrakadabra" or something.

That's all there is to it.

Nowadays most countries regulate free speech, unfortunately, so it's not
perfect. But the principles are still valid. If Estonians or whoever want to
parade in their cities (which they own), Russians have zero right to prevent
them.
to interfere.

VetLegion_
29-04-2011, 03:35:18
There has to be a redestribution of wealth if this thing we call EU is going to continue existing.

It's really astonishing that you can say that with a straight face.
The redistribution is happening, but to claim that you have a right
to it... crazy.

VetLegion_
29-04-2011, 03:40:52
Greece has become a member of the then EC in 1981. The problem is much younger, essentially too much wage moderation in Germany, too little in the southern countries.

There can not be too much wage moderation. This reminds me of French
claims that German economy is too competitive, or that Germans don't
spend enough.

A sign of too much wage moderation would be German companies increasing
profits while wages stagnate. To the best of my knowledge, this has not
happened in the wage moderation decades (the last two).

Wages are collectively bargained in Germany and employees and their unions
have been acutely aware of foreign competition. The reason for wage
moderation has been unrelenting foreign pressure on prices of manufactured
products.

VetLegion_
29-04-2011, 03:57:52
Looking at it only through the perspective of wage moderation is a very "german" way of looking at it. it leaves out a whole spectrum of things. and in no way it annules the porsche and car and horse in free markets argument...
it was this way in 1981 it still is and it probably will be for the foreseable future

The "porsche vs the horse cart" argument is ridiculous. Jeez, i thought you
had some economic training. Look up David Ricardo and comparative advantage.

Basically, Greeks should not be building cars and should not even be building horse carts to try to compete with cars.

They should do whatever the market signals them (via the profit/loss
signal) makes sense.

Doing that and trading freely is going to increase the consumption (living
standard) of everyone in the free trade area.

Countries should not be attempting to imitate each other, to have mirror
image economies. At the moment it makes no sense for Greeks to build
cars and also makes no sense for Germans to try to develop summer tourism
on the North Sea to take tourists away from Greece.

But even this simplification can mislead. This is because it is not countries
who are competing between each other in this regard, it is companies. So
it is quite possible to see, say, a successful quad motorbike specialist
producer in Greece and very profitable Hotel resort on the North Sea.
Despite the fact that generally Germans seem better at manufacturing and
Greeks at tourism.


If there is no redistribution of wealth there is no use in keeping markets open under such differences of competitiveness?

Whoever told you that? Is it the official line in Greece?

As per mentioned Ricardo, trading freely increases the standard of living of
everyone. Trade happens irrespective of "competitiveness". If you imagine
the most "uncompetitive" country, it still benefits from trade. Even the North
Koreans have something to trade and would benefit from trade. You can not
hurt a country by trade. You can hurt a company, but not a country. That
is, it is an impossible outcome that opening borders to trade destroys all
companies in some country. This is because in order to import, you have to
export.

I've already typed enough, but if you need a longer explanation, just ask :cute:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-05-2011, 15:16:11
There can not be too much wage moderation. This reminds me of French
claims that German economy is too competitive, or that Germans don't
spend enough.

A sign of too much wage moderation would be German companies increasing
profits while wages stagnate. To the best of my knowledge, this has not
happened in the wage moderation decades (the last two).

Wages are collectively bargained in Germany and employees and their unions
have been acutely aware of foreign competition. The reason for wage
moderation has been unrelenting foreign pressure on prices of manufactured
products.

Share of profits in national income has risen. And "There can not be too much wage moderation" is an odd idea.

VetLegion_
06-05-2011, 22:20:55
I'll get back to you on those outrageous claims as soon as I verify them :mad:

In the meantime...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,761201,00.html

The debt crisis in Greece has taken on a dramatic new twist. Sources with information about the government's actions have informed SPIEGEL ONLINE that Athens is considering withdrawing from the euro zone. The common currency area's finance ministers and representatives of the European Commission are holding a secret crisis meeting in Luxembourg on Friday night.

A return to the Drachma? :funko:

paiktis
01-06-2011, 15:00:35
vetty (thanks for the translation of the croatian line btw)

your theories contradict themselves! you talk about each building what he's "pre-ordanted" to do but then say that countries can't compete only markets do etc etc

anyway, so much for "neo-jenissars" of capitalism from new generated eastern countries. let the old men speak :D

in all seriousness it is far more plausible for germany to exit the euro than greece right about now.


at the core of the matter i still believe it is a systemic fault and not a greek one so much. and a mirror of a wider transission of wealth from the west to the east but that's another point.

greece cannot fail and will not because the repercussions are too great. that has been demonstrated enough.
but it can be cursed to live in excrussiating poverty and that creates social unrest and that is the deciding and unexpected factor that can lead to unforcast results.

it is good on one hand not to give free reign to the privitization vultures and it's GREAT to see that in other countries (espagna on to france etc).

otoh structural reforms should be pushed on but not in any price. or they will not. and it all collapses

paiktis
01-06-2011, 15:04:42
i had a chat with a good german acquintance of mine. he said pretty much what you say. germans are good at building stuff, french at making wines so they're all good.
greece at his view should do something similar, find what it can give and do it. and he mentioned tourism.
that's somewhat true but it is a very depressing thought. i replied saying that, it is indeed depressive for greece to be reduced to serving old european asses.
better in flames, or bunkrupted, or something else : )

paiktis
01-06-2011, 15:08:44
the problems in greece are deep seated, systemic, impossibly difficult to uproot and (without external loans) suffocating.
however, the country has not before found itself in this position, unable to draw with monetary autonomy.
it's all funky. we'll see what happens.

paiktis
01-06-2011, 15:12:28
personally i believe that there is no economic solution to this.
only a political one.
and it has a name: eurobonds.

one currency - two thousand different bonds? unheard of!

http://www.levyinstitute.org/publications/?docid=1380

paiktis
01-06-2011, 15:20:00
btw one has again to admire the financial hegeomy of america in all this.
i remember 2008 and how they exited.
it's the difference between havng a real country (well in what regards institutions etc - monetary autonomy etc) and the sui generis suffocating maastricht accord.
the european idea has taken a very bad turn but i still think it's very very very worth saving.

MDA
01-06-2011, 15:27:16
Research Horseback Riding
Build Chariots
???
Profit!

Phalanxes/Hoplites are too much work.

paiktis
01-06-2011, 15:29:30
personally i laugh my arse off when hearing minsters saying o mee god the imf will not loan us prepare for disaster etc so as to scare the people in accepting even more poverty.

that will not do.

if imf bails, the ecb will step in. if poverty continues or goes worse there will be upheaval.
it more and more goes to a war of extremities and people are somehow "digging trances" so to say.

i'd laugh but the situation is serious as poverty chops off heads, in imf forced health care cutbacks, the suffocation of private sector, massive lay outs.
greece will be another imf failure. it already is.

the usual vultures are trying to grab as many public stuff as possible before they are kicked out. it was always like this. what can you do. laugh.

paiktis
01-06-2011, 15:41:52
i'll say something else.
seeing from the inside the greek public sector i must say i'm shocked.
i don't think i've ever seen so much waste of wealth, so badly executed decisions, so low educated and moral people. a huge disaster wherever you look. so much corruption in high political level. so bad mismanagment, it borders on national betrayal and i kid you not.

i don't know if i should be more saddened by the inefficacity or the low enslaved mentality.

having worked on the private sector, i can tell you things were running with the speed of light, there was little fat and the mentality has hugely superior there is no comparison.


NOW hear this:

in the private sector, me and others were buttraped without saliva, the worker exploitation was mind numbing, the stress unbearable the pay little.


in the public sector. it's king.


can't that gap be devided?

the social injustices in the country are bone crushing. a young man with degrees can hope to be unemployed ot start at 700 euros.


an old fart public sector pensioner can clear 4000 euros in pension in his 45 years of age.

P L E A S E

VetLegion_
10-09-2011, 22:49:18
i had a chat with a good german acquintance of mine. he said pretty much what you say. germans are good at building stuff, french at making wines so they're all good.
greece at his view should do something similar, find what it can give and do it. and he mentioned tourism.
that's somewhat true but it is a very depressing thought. i replied saying that, it is indeed depressive for greece to be reduced to serving old european asses.
better in flames, or bunkrupted, or something else : )

You aren't getting it.

The idea that nations should specialize in something is fake. That's not
what should be happening. It is firms who specialize, not nations. You can
aggregate it (lots of French firms export wine -> the French are good at
wine) but should not as it only leads to wrong conclusions about public
policy and whatnot.

So the Greek government should not be making a special effort to specialize
in serving old European asses. If the market decides that this is going to be
happening a lot in Greece, fine.

VetLegion_
10-09-2011, 22:51:09
the social injustices in the country are bone crushing. a young man with degrees can hope to be unemployed ot start at 700 euros.


an old fart public sector pensioner can clear 4000 euros in pension in his 45 years of age.



That's disgusting. However, the fact that someone has degrees does
not entitle him to multiple thousands of euros. In my opinion 700 is about
right for Greece's current level of development and productivity.

Fistandantilus
11-09-2011, 05:10:57
In your opinion a greek should starve and die. We got that already.

VetLegion_
11-09-2011, 11:15:22
I never said that.

Poison Arrow Frog
12-09-2011, 05:06:47
That sounds like something I'd say, actually.