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*End Is Forever*
25-08-2010, 21:56:05
I logged on here expecting a nice thread with the teams in each pot, and yet... nothing! :shoot:

*End Is Forever*
25-08-2010, 22:00:47
Pot 1

Internazionale
Barcelona
Manchester United
Chelsea
Arsenal
Bayern Munich
AC Milan
Olympique Lyonnais

Pot 2

Werder Bremen
Real Madrid
Roma
Shahktar Donetsk
Benfica
Valencia
Marseille
Panathinaikos

Pot 3

Tottenham Hotspur
Rangers
Ajax
Schalke 04
Basel 1893
Braga
FC Copenhagen
Spartak Moscow

Pot 4

Hapoel Tel-Aviv
FC Twente
Rubin Kazan
Auxerre
CFR Cluj
Partizan Belgrade
MSK Zilina
Bursaspor

maroule
26-08-2010, 07:42:49
there's a huge heterogeneity in pot 2 and 3, but pot 1 and 4 are fairly homogenous

Funko
26-08-2010, 07:43:56
I was thinking that. Some potential for a 3 team group of death, but not a 4 team.

We could get some very boring groups.

Back!
26-08-2010, 08:11:42
there's a huge heterogeneity in pot 2 and 3, but pot 1 and 4 are fairly homogenous
I was thinking that.

you have homogenous thinking

Back!
26-08-2010, 08:35:21
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/seedcl2010.html

scroll down to the proper section, you see the pots with the coeff which generated the seeding

4 seeded teams in th 4th round failed to qualify for the groups:
108.951 Sevilla
61.258 Zenit
42.580 Anderlecht
27.395 Sparta Praha

Sevilla missing sent a rippling of stepups from lower pots
Lyon got "promoted" in Pot 1
Zenit would have raised from Pot 3 to 2, but they got out too and Panathinaikos got their place (narrowly ahead of Suprs who stay in Pot3)
normally Basel would have been the lowest in Pot3; Braga, beating Sevilla, would have entered Pot 3 anyway; the fall of Zenit and Anderlecht allowed København and Spartak to get up from 4 to 3, making Pot 3 "split in two tiers": Spurs, Rangers, Ajax and Schalke to be avoided

the remarkable thing is having only one Spanish team in Pot 1, and only 3 overall
With Werder pipping out Sampdoria at 93' of 2nd leg, England is the only country left with 4 teams in Groups stage, 3 thereof in top pot

Barça-Werder-Spurs-Twente?
:D

*End Is Forever*
26-08-2010, 15:05:56
I was thinking that. Some potential for a 3 team group of death, but not a 4 team.

We could get some very boring groups.

I suspect Rubin and Hapoel are the teams to avoid in Pot 4, purely on the basis of travelling distance rather than playing strength.

If I was Spurs I'd be looking to avoid Madrid in Pot 2.

Back!
26-08-2010, 15:09:26
Would you prefer to see Inter-Real in the group, where they would both progress,
or to see them clash in 1st knockout round, so that Mourinho can claim it's all merit of his last year work when Inter will eliminate Real?

*End Is Forever*
26-08-2010, 15:14:16
I guess from the POV of a pot 1 side, there could be some merit in drawing a Madrid or a Bremen in the hope of an easier last 16 tie.

Fistandantilus
26-08-2010, 16:45:26
Aww Spurs in the same group as Inter. I hope they both go thru.

Mr. Bas
26-08-2010, 17:08:32
Arsenal and Barcelona have a walk in the park, it seems. Difficult draw for both Dutch teams, Ajax will certainly not be happy to get Real from pot B and Auxerre from pot D.

Back!
27-08-2010, 06:57:04
Barça-Werder-Spurs-Twente?
:D

:eek:

Inter-Werder-Spurs-Twente

I guess from the POV of a pot 1 side, there could be some merit in drawing a Madrid or a Bremen in the hope of an easier last 16 tie.

Difficult draw for both Dutch teams, Ajax will certainly not be happy to get Real from pot B and Auxerre from pot D.

and
AC Milan - Real - Ajax - Auxerre

so, both Pot1 italians got the top Pot2 teams, which could have been convenient as EiF pointed out
but that, coupled with 2 top sides from Pot 3 too, turns fierce competition on for 2nd spot

Remember that Werder comes from relegating the 4th italian CL side to EL
and that 2 years ago with a win and a draw they kept Inter from winning the group (sending them to clash with ManU) then in EL went on eliminating AC Milan and Udinese on their way to the final
That's to say italian sides and Inter specifically didn't have easy life vs Werder in recent seasons, so even if you rate Spurs over the Germans, you can't brush the latters aside. this group is very open to any results

Ajax are not as strong as few years ago, but with their policy of bringing up young talents every year they're still keeping up remarkably good standards
Don't forget AC Milan last year could have topped the group after a miracle in Madrid, but then struggled with OM Marseille and Zürich (yes, Zuerich!) and risked even to go down in EL
I think AC are even weaker than last sesaon, Ajax really stand a good chance of getting 2nd

maroule
27-08-2010, 07:01:50
Lyon's group is very open / I don't know how strong is Schalke / Lyon for this year can range from boring-average to very good, depending on one factor, how Gourcuff will find his feet in his new team

Marseille can aim for the second spot, even if they'll be steamrolled by their former star striker // so it's a mano a mano with Spartak, which is a bit good. There again, a lot will depend on their brand new attacking duo of Gignac and Remy (Niang and Ben Arfa left). Difficult one to call, but they started the league badly.


Elsewhere, maybe Tottenham and possibly Ajax (who got a rotten draw), can challenge for the first two spots, but I don't see many pot 3 teams making it (and obviously not pot 4 teams).

That's sad that's the only uncertainty at this level; how many pot 3 and 4 amking it


should we make bets?


I'd say two, and zero

maroule
27-08-2010, 07:03:21
for reference

Groupe A : Inter Milan, Werder Brême, Tottenham, Twente
Groupe B : Lyon, Benfica, Schalke 04, Hapoel Tel Aviv
Groupe C : Manchester United, Valence, Glasgow Rangers, Bursaspor
Groupe D : FC Barcelone, Panathinaikos, FC Bâle, Rubin Kazan
Groupe E : Bayern Munich, AS Rome, FC Copenhague, Cluj
Groupe F : Chelsea, Marseille, Spartak Moscou, Zilina
Groupe G : Milan AC, Real Madrid, Ajax Amsterdam, Auxerre
Groupe H : Arsenal, Chakhtior Donestsk, Braga, Partizan Belgrade

Back!
27-08-2010, 07:39:28
Elsewhere, maybe Tottenham and possibly Ajax (who got a rotten draw), can challenge for the first two spots, but I don't see many pot 3 teams making it (and obviously not pot 4 teams).

That's sad that's the only uncertainty at this level; how many pot 3 and 4 amking it


should we make bets?


I'd say two, and zero

Spurs have very good chances

Schalke might not be inferior to a rehauled Benfica, and as you said Lyon is't guaranteed to top the group either.

Valencia sold Villa, they might the negative surprise of the year so here's an open spot for Rangers

group D is free-for-all behind Barça, greek sides are tough to chew but might also crash, and Rubin could even have better chances than Basel

groups E & F are the most likely imo to respect the ranking and less open to upsets

Ajax imo is favorite over AC

in H Braga alreay eliminated Sevilla. that could have been their apex, but i think they might also go on and be the year surprise. Partizan have Serb pride. Shaktar are ups and downs, I can't figure wher they stand now
Arsenal could top the group winning all games, or they could risk to fail qualification
a very open to surprises group too (i.e. I haven't the slightest idea how to predict this :cute: )



in summary, how many pot 3 and 4 making it?

it could range from 1+0, to 4+2

I say 3+1
:D

Funko
27-08-2010, 07:58:05
Groups of death? Not really any.

A and G the closest to being groups of death.

*End Is Forever*
27-08-2010, 14:46:04
How strong are Valencia likely to be having sold both Villa and Silva...?

Back!
27-08-2010, 15:10:32
Valencia sold Villa, they might be the negative surprise of the year so here's an open spot for Rangers


How strong are Valencia likely to be having sold both Villa and Silva...?

oh, yeah, I forgot Silva too
:)

Mr. Bas
27-08-2010, 17:54:46
I haven't seen Rangers play for ages, but if they're anywhere near as clueless as Celtic are nowadays (4-0 loss at Utrecht), there's little hope for them to progress. Whatever group they're in.

maroule
30-08-2010, 07:22:19
Rangers got slaughtered last year in CL, I doubt they improve their team so much that it's going to make any difference

Lyon and Marseille continued their poor form over this WE, they're easy pickings right now (they'll get stronger during the year)

Back!
25-11-2010, 09:48:01
how many pot 3 and 4 amking it: should we make bets? I'd say two, and zero
for reference

Groupe A : Inter Milan, Werder Brême, Tottenham, Twente
Groupe B : Lyon, Benfica, Schalke 04, Hapoel Tel Aviv
Groupe C : Manchester United, Valence, Glasgow Rangers, Bursaspor
Groupe D : FC Barcelone, Panathinaikos, FC Copenhague, Rubin Kazan
Groupe E : Bayern Munich, AS Rome, FC Bâle, Cluj
Groupe F : Chelsea, Marseille, Spartak Moscou, Zilina
Groupe G : Milan AC, Real Madrid, Ajax Amsterdam, Auxerre
Groupe H : Arsenal, Chakhtior Donestsk, Braga, Partizan Belgrade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_UEFA_Champions_League_group_stage

GW
A: Tottenham (Inter)
B: Schalke (Lyon)
C: ManU (Valencia)
D: BARçA
E: BAYERN
F: CHELSEA
G: REAL
H: Shakhtar (Arsenal, (Braga))

RU
A: Inter (Tottenham)
B: Lyon (Schalke)
C: Valencia (ManU)
D: Copenhagen (Rubin)
E: Roma (Basel)
F: OM
G: AC MILAN
H: Arsenal (Shakhtar, (Braga))

EL
A: TWENTE
B: Benfica (Hapoel)
C: RANGERS
D: Rubin (Copenhagen)
E: Basel (Roma)
F: SPARTAK
G: Ajax (Auxerre)
H: Braga (Arse/Shak)

Tottenham and Schalke made it, could even win their groups
Kobenhavn is favorite to make it, and if not them then Rubin from Pot4 will get it
Basel retain only faint hopes
Braga's hopes are maybe a whiff less faint than Basel's but still very slim
Braga will qualify for the knockout stage if:
they defeat Shakhtar Donetsk by at least 4 goals OR
they defeat Shakhtar Donetsk (by any score) AND Arsenal do not defeat Partizan, OR
they draw with Shakhtar Donetsk AND Arsenal lose to Partizan.

Ajax and Rangers failed

not counting Basel and Braga, as of now it will be either 3+0 or 2+1

Fistandantilus
25-11-2010, 10:12:53
So Maroule was pretty spot on.

Back!
25-11-2010, 10:51:01
well, as spot on as I was too on the other side

he said 2+0, I said 3+1

it's either 3+0 or 2+1 (depending on Copenaghen/Rubin)

If Rubin AND Basel or Braga qualify, it might still be 3+1, while it can never be 2+0 anymore

Back!
14-12-2010, 13:18:48
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_UEFA_Champions_League_group_stage

group rankings by pots, and points


A 3 1 4 2 11 10 6 5
B 3 1 2 4 13 10 6 5
C 1 2 3 4 14 11 6 1
D 1 3 4 2 14 10 6 2
E 1 2 3 4 15 10 6 4
F 1 2 3 4 15 12 9 0
G 2 1 3 4 16 8 7 3
H 2 1 3 4 15 12 9 0


http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/seedcl2010.html

half the top seeds failed to win their groups, they got runner-ups anyway

two Pot2 clubs won their group, they were ranked 2nd (Real) and 4th (Shakhtar) in the pot; they also got the most points
two Pot2 clubs even failed to get in EL, they were the best (Werder) and the worst (Pana) ranked in Pot2

Spurs were best ranked from Pot3, they won their group, by scoring tho the least points
two runner-ups got more points than Spurs (grF OM, grH Arsenal)
teams relegated to EL from the same groups (grF Spartak, grH Braga) got more points than grG runnerup AC

no team from Pot4 got to KO phase, but two qualified for EL (Twente, Rubin) at the expense of Pot2 (not Pot3) teams in their groups, the abovementioned Werder & Pana

Back!
14-12-2010, 13:53:28
KO draw pots

1st in CL group 2nd in CL group
------------------------ --- ------------------------ ---
Tottenham Hotspur Eng Internazionale Ita
Schalke 04 Ger Olympique Lyon Fra
Manchester United Eng Valencia Esp
FC Barcelona Esp FC København Den
Bayern München Ger AS Roma Ita
Chelsea Eng Olympique Marseille Fra
Real Madrid Esp AC Milan Ita
Shakhtar Donetsk Ukr Arsenal Eng


(in group order)

ENG 3+1
ESP 2+1
GER 2+0
UKR 1+0

ITA 0+3
FRA 0+2
DEN 0+1 (a first)

for friday draw, more than the original coeff seeding, we should try to preview the teams form in february

currently:

Barça & Real are dominating
Valencia (in RU pot) are 5th lacking a bit of continuity in performances

ManU just got EPL lead, Chelsea lost it after their worst spell in years, which they're struggling to get past of
Spurs are 5th in the table, below Gunners who're thus the club to avoid from Pot2

in this season Bundesliga great upset, both Bayern and Schalke come from a win last sunday
Munich raised to 6th after struggling all season in midtable
Schalke clutched 10th place just escaping from relegation zone (where they left Stuttgart, 6th last season and EL group winners now)

in Italy, the worst qualified AC is leading the table 6pts clear, only thanks to Ibra (and with Ronaldinho riveted to the bench); they didn't show the same form in europe, where the Swede scored 4 (although 3 thereof to bottom club Auxerre)
Inter & Roma who fought for title last season(s) are trailing a bit, fighting for 5th place and 10pts behind AC

in France the season started upside down too, as in Germany, but the table is much closer and the traditional values are about to get restored
OL & OM got back in the top spots, behind Lille & PSG

Cort Haus
15-12-2010, 01:25:59
Spurs are 5th in the table, below Gunners who're thus the club to avoid from Pot2


Hmmm, the way we've been playing I doubt anyone will be too bothered if they get Arsenal.

Fistandantilus
15-12-2010, 02:47:24
Ineeed, Spurs are the team to be afraid about.

Back!
15-12-2010, 10:18:31
well, with 3 english clubs in Pot 1, and coming from the same group as Shakhtar, it will be either the 2 spaniards or the 2 germans to get the Gunners

similarly, Valencia are the lucky club in pot 2, in that they can't meet the 3 strongest in pot 1 (Barça, Real, ManU)

Back!
17-12-2010, 11:41:05
Ineeed, Spurs are the team to be afraid about.

they play against Ibra, and he's not one to get scared

Back!
17-12-2010, 11:44:41
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/9294128.stm


Roma v Shakhtar Donetsk
AC Milan v Tottenham Hotspur
Valencia v Schalke
Inter Milan v Bayern Munich
Lyon v Real Madrid
Arsenal v Barcelona
Marseille v Manchester United
FC Copenhagen v Chelsea



repeat of last year's final

Lyon face Real Madrid and will be hoping for a repeat of last year's victory over their Spanish opponents at the same stage

I second that
:D
I actually see both french teams thru

Funko
17-12-2010, 12:22:36
Some tasty looking ties there.

Milan Spurs and Arse Barca will be very interesting.

Greg W
17-12-2010, 13:43:36
I tend to think that Barca will give the Gunners a football lesson. Stranger things have happened though.

Funko
17-12-2010, 14:51:06
I think they'll win, but it'll should be an attractive game.

Fistandantilus
17-12-2010, 15:13:30
AC Milan are out already :(

maroule
17-12-2010, 15:29:00
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/9294128.stm

I actually see both french teams thru

I'd love you to be right, but I'd bet on both French teams going out, beaten fairly clearly... similarly I can't see Arse going through unfortunately

very tasty matches ahead! Milan Tottenham is very intriguing, no clue of how that one is going to go

Cort Haus
17-12-2010, 18:50:08
Last year, from my seat in the North Upper at Ashburton Grove, I sat stunned as Barcelona relentlessly attacked the goal in front of me with Manuel Almunia somehow keeping Arsenal in the game.

Barcelona were amazingly good, but what made it even easier for them was the way they kept winning free kicks whenever any attempt (including legitimate ones) was made to tackle them. Busquets in particular, I will hate forever for his diving and squealing.

Miraculously, Arsenal got a 2-2 that night, before getting heavily mugged by Barca's superior ability in the second leg.

This year, Barca are currently playing better and Arsenal are playing a lot worse. If things don't change in the next two months, Barcelona can easily win this time 8 or 9-1 on aggregate. At least.

Cort Haus
17-12-2010, 18:51:06
And Sp*rs will somehow beat Milan :(

*End Is Forever*
26-12-2010, 20:55:09
Of the three French sides left, I think Arsenal are the least likely to go through.

Funko
28-12-2010, 08:34:06
Last year, from my seat in the North Upper at Ashburton Grove, I sat stunned as Barcelona relentlessly attacked the goal in front of me with Manuel Almunia somehow keeping Arsenal in the game.

Barcelona were amazingly good, but what made it even easier for them was the way they kept winning free kicks whenever any attempt (including legitimate ones) was made to tackle them. Busquets in particular, I will hate forever for his diving and squealing.

Miraculously, Arsenal got a 2-2 that night, before getting heavily mugged by Barca's superior ability in the second leg.

This year, Barca are currently playing better and Arsenal are playing a lot worse. If things don't change in the next two months, Barcelona can easily win this time 8 or 9-1 on aggregate. At least.

This sounds exactly like watching Reading vs Arsenal.