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View Full Version : Why is it that penalties are so fucking difficult for British football as a whole!?


MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 12:00:02
Just this weekend alone I can think of at least 3 in the Premiership and know of another in the Championship! How fucking difficult is it for a professional footballer paid tens of thousands of pounds a week to hit the ball somewhere the goalie can't reach it...!!? OK, Carew succeeded in that - but that was only because he missed the whole fucking goal!:clueless:

Funko
23-08-2010, 12:11:07
It's not the technique, it's the pressure.

You've also got some of the best keepers in the world.

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 12:32:07
There's two corners of the goal that are virtually unsaveable. I am pretty crap at football, but in a dead ball situation from that range, even I have a reasonable chance of hitting those areas most of the time...:rolleyes:

If you don't have the balls to kick a penalty - let someone else do it!

Funko
23-08-2010, 12:38:48
My second reply to this went missing?

It said:

More importantly:

Anecdotal viewing of a few penalties on one weekend isn't enough to condemn penalty taking in English football. Need to compare the overall stats for different countries.

Funko
23-08-2010, 12:39:47
The "I could do better" argument is clearly annoying drunk know it all in the pub bullshit.

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 13:00:40
My second reply to this went missing?

It said:

More importantly:

Anecdotal viewing of a few penalties on one weekend isn't enough to condemn penalty taking in English football. Need to compare the overall stats for different countries.

But it isn't really over one weekend, is it? We're talking the fact that the national team is famous at being hopeless at taking penalties in major international tournaments - the only thing stopping us crashing out this time around was that we were so shit in the normal 90 minutes!

I admit I haven't seen the stats for other leagues (where's MoSe when you need him?), but at an international level it's official and that kind of form has to come from somewhere...

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 13:04:02
The "I could do better" argument is clearly annoying drunk know it all in the pub bullshit.

And you'll note that I didn't actually say I could do it better - but neither am I paid up to and over ~100k a week to do so...:p

I'm just saying that in this country, even our so-called 'good' penalty takers usually employ the hit and hope blast it down the middle tactics.

Funko
23-08-2010, 13:08:11
What's pay got to do with it?

So anecdotally you think there might be an issue with penalty taking, but you don't have any statistics to back it up and resent footballer's pay?

So far you are remaining in tune with the average Sun reading pub idiot.

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 13:38:36
Nothing anecdotal about it from the evidence I've seen with the national side. Clearly one week in the Prem where 3 are missed is a blip, but my point stands that most penalties taken in this country are ones that stand a high chance of being saved by the goalie - hence the fact that the league has a bunch of goalies considered good penalty stoppers. The presence of a goalie should be virtually irrelevant to a professional penalty taker, IMO.

As for pay, well when people are paid millions a year in their job, you generally expect them to be able to perform what is considered a relatively easy task in their sleep - that's not being resentful of their pay - just that at those levels you should be able to find at least one person in the country who can kick a ball 12yds to exactly where they want it to go without having a mental breakdown and fucking the whole thing up...:lol::lol::lol:

Funko
23-08-2010, 13:46:22
National team have won 1/5, not sure how what percentage they converted, and how that compares with someone like the Germans with a 5/1 record. It could be a handful of conversions between the two teams. We only need to have missed 5 out of 30 to lose 5 shootouts, the Germans only need to have scored 5... You'd presume they've converted more penalties, especially as 2 were against us, but it might only be a handful more. And in each case 6 shootouts is a paucity of information.

"relatively easy task" is it easier than a Goal Kick? How many of those go astray. The error rates are probably similar to any other "relatively easy task" in a match, but bigger incidents get more attention. I'm sure the majority of Penalties are converted. Again, no stats to back it up.

It's like when people say strikers should always score in 1v1 situations with the goalkeeper. At all levels of football the scoring rate is about 50% in 1v1s.

And lots of the Premiership takers are foreigners who've come up through foreign youth systems.

If Nani misses a penalty for ManU, which country is at fault exactly?

Funko
23-08-2010, 13:53:02
And don't forget, in the goal is one of the best keepers in the world, who trains for hours each day precisely to be great at stopping that player complete their 'relatively easy task'.

There are areas of the goal where theoretically the keeper can't get to, unless they move early, but those are much higher risk, if you tuck it right in the corner at high power you have a much higher risk of blasting wide or over.

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 14:12:26
National team have won 1/5, not sure how what percentage they converted, and how that compares with someone like the Germans with a 5/1 record. It could be a handful of conversions between the two teams. We only need to have missed 5 out of 30 to lose 5 shootouts, the Germans only need to have scored 5... You'd presume they've converted more penalties, especially as 2 were against us, but it might only be a handful more. And in each case 6 shootouts is a paucity of information.

Well to me the bottom line is that the national team has only won 20% of their penalty shootouts - clearly that is far less is ideal and therefore indicative of the fact that the British (the Wales team is also crap) are poor penalty takers

"relatively easy task" is it easier than a Goal Kick? How many of those go astray. The error rates are probably similar to any other "relatively easy task" in a match, but bigger incidents get more attention. I'm sure the majority of Penalties are converted. Again, no stats to back it up.

And yes, clearly Goal Kicks are easier because you see far less goals scored from shit goal kicks - though the one that Earnshaw scored this weekend was a classic! As for stats, and I know it's only one weekend of Prem footy, but this weekend out of 5 penalties that I know of, only two (40%) were converted. Which is pretty poor when you consider that the average conversion rate is about 80-90% across all levels of football...

It's like when people say strikers should always score in 1v1 situations with the goalkeeper. At all levels of football the scoring rate is about 50% in 1v1s.

No, I think 1v1s are far more difficult and I'm not surprised the rate is about 50% because the goalie has a lot more influence on their outcomes - not to mention a whole host of other factors...

And lots of the Premiership takers are foreigners who've come up through foreign youth systems.

If Nani misses a penalty for ManU, which country is at fault exactly?

Except now they're playing in the UK in a league with a British mentality, so naturally their performance is negatively affected - hence the deliberate wording of my thread title...:D

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 14:17:24
And don't forget, in the goal is one of the best keepers in the world, who trains for hours each day precisely to be great at stopping that player complete their 'relatively easy task'.

There are areas of the goal where theoretically the keeper can't get to, unless they move early, but those are much higher risk, if you tuck it right in the corner at high power you have a much higher risk of blasting wide or over.

Yeah, but it boils down to a game of cat and mouse. A good penalty taker will nullify any advantages a goalie can create himself by removing any trends of predictability from his penalty taking.

Of course, if you tuck it into a top corner, if the keeper theoretically can't get to it - you don't have to blast it at high power.:D

Funko
23-08-2010, 14:26:47
Sorry I said 1/5 which I meant to represent won 1, lost 5 my fault. :) 17%.

So what is your point?

You think penalties are easy, and shouldn't be missed but you don't have any evidence to suggest how many might be missed.

Funko
23-08-2010, 14:37:52
And yes, clearly Goal Kicks are easier because you see far less goals scored from shit goal kicks - though the one that Earnshaw scored this weekend was a classic! As for stats, and I know it's only one weekend of Prem footy, but this weekend out of 5 penalties that I know of, only two (40%) were converted. Which is pretty poor when you consider that the average conversion rate is about 80-90% across all levels of football...


Including the Premiership. I bet it's back to the usual percentage by the end of the season.

Any season will have statistical glitches like this. You are looking for a story out of co-incidence.

Funko
23-08-2010, 14:39:04
What's the Wales record in international penalty shoot outs?

Funko
23-08-2010, 14:40:22
Oh, NAN%

Funko
23-08-2010, 14:40:38
bloody divide by zero...

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 14:45:03
Sorry I said 1/5 which I meant to represent won 1, lost 5 my fault. :) 17%.

So what is your point?

You think penalties are easy, and shouldn't be missed but you don't have any evidence to suggest how many might be missed.

Ha, so even worse than I thought!

My evidence is, anecdotally, that England missed more penalties than the opposition in these penalty shootouts...:cute:

Funko
23-08-2010, 14:46:47
So international knockout penalties represent "British football as a whole"? and foreign players playing for British teams also count?

If a dad scuffs a penalty wide past his kid in the garden does that count?

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 14:48:03
Including the Premiership. I bet it's back to the usual percentage by the end of the season.

Any season will have statistical glitches like this. You are looking for a story out of co-incidence.

There's prob some stats somewhere about past seasons. But you're right, it is a story of coincidence borne out of a niggling feeling that there is some kind of underlying trend - naturally I've jumped on the first such glaring evidence wholeheartedly and shouted from the rooftops, or at least CG's sports forum...:D

Greg W
23-08-2010, 14:48:04
Put it this way. If the keeper guesses the right way, they have a decent chance of saving a penalty. The fact that the keepers universally cheat and move both forward and sideways most of the time prior to the kick makes it even harder. They're also something that aren't practiced all that often, so it's not like they're hitting hundreds a week in practice. By your way of thinking, a penalty should never be saved. I think even you can admit that's ridiculous. :p

I also pretty much guarantee that you couldn't hit that supposedly easy to hit unsave-able corner in 5 kicks. Taking note that you also have to strike it quite hard as well. I took penalties all my career and to the best of my knowledge never missed one. Maybe scored a dozen or so? But I wasn't playing against top rate keepers.

Temperament has a lot to do with being able to put your shooting skills into practice in a very tense situation. Especially in a penalty shootout where you're trying to qualify for the next round and a miss could mean an exit. That's a lot of pressure especially when your entire country (well, almost) is sweating on you to score.

Look at Tennis players for a similar example. How hard is it to serve a ball? Easy, right? So why do they serve faults all the time, and even double faults? And this is something they do ALL the time.

Sorry, it's just not that easy. :p

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 14:50:14
bloody divide by zero...

:p

The point I was making is that Wales is also crap at taking penalties (I think they missed 3 in a row in the WC qualifies - not that it would have helped!).

Funko
23-08-2010, 14:52:01
But those players are on a hundred pounds a week!

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 15:23:54
Put it this way. If the keeper guesses the right way, they have a decent chance of saving a penalty. The fact that the keepers universally cheat and move both forward and sideways most of the time prior to the kick makes it even harder. They're also something that aren't practiced all that often, so it's not like they're hitting hundreds a week in practice. By your way of thinking, a penalty should never be saved. I think even you can admit that's ridiculous. :p

Even if they guess the right way, they still shouldn't be able to reach a perfectly taken penalty - which is my point. And they should be practiced - imagine how less shit penalty takers would be if they practiced! And by my way of thinking, a penalty should be very rarely saved (there is no such thing as never, as that is ridiculous!), say on a par with goals being scored from shocking goalkicks...:cute:

I also pretty much guarantee that you couldn't hit that supposedly easy to hit unsave-able corner in 5 kicks. Taking note that you also have to strike it quite hard as well. I took penalties all my career and to the best of my knowledge never missed one. Maybe scored a dozen or so? But I wasn't playing against top rate keepers.

No, I couldn't, but then I'm not a Premier League player...:D

Temperament has a lot to do with being able to put your shooting skills into practice in a very tense situation. Especially in a penalty shootout where you're trying to qualify for the next round and a miss could mean an exit. That's a lot of pressure especially when your entire country (well, almost) is sweating on you to score.

Exactly. Practice makes perfect. Also there's papers and papers out there about how to be a good penalty taker - but no one in this country seems to take the blind bit of notice...:rolleyes:

Look at Tennis players for a similar example. How hard is it to serve a ball? Easy, right? So why do they serve faults all the time, and even double faults? And this is something they do ALL the time.

Sorry, it's just not that easy. :p

Serving a ball is easy, it's the serving it so it doesn't get smashed back down your throat that's the hard bit...:D

Greg W
23-08-2010, 15:30:29
And kicking a ball into the net from the penalty spot is easy. Kicking it so the keeper cannot possibly save it is the hard bit. :p

MOBIUS
23-08-2010, 15:31:37
Harder bit. Not hard - just harder.:p

Funko
23-08-2010, 15:34:12
Being a professional sportsman doesn't mean you are suddenly infallible. Otherwise sport would be very dull indeed.

Greg W
23-08-2010, 15:34:55
If it wasn't hard, barely anybody would miss one. :p

Funko
23-08-2010, 15:36:39
Barely anyone does miss one...

maroule
23-08-2010, 15:41:05
the best strikers of the ball in the business have all missed penalties, Platini, Trezeguet in France, Zico, Socrates in Brazil, etc.

The English national team's record is indeed bad (mental frailties?), but I haven't noticed a difference in the big leagues

Pressure from the stakes, fear of missing, tiredness, etc.

Greg W
23-08-2010, 15:42:10
Barely anyone does miss one...Different opinions on "barely anyone" there I think. Well, that and I also included keepers saving in that. ;)

Cheshire Cat
24-08-2010, 07:36:05
But those players are on a hundred pounds a week!

that's a lot to eat!

do they wear a helmet for that?

Foot
24-08-2010, 07:40:54
Barely anyone does miss one...

I figure converting a try is more difficult in general than scoring a penalty
I wonder are there actual figures for the two stats

the extra point in American Football should be the one with the highest percentages
and they have a player sitting on the bench all time and getting in just for kicking
:rolleyes:
I wish the merits of the foot could be better recognised

Fistandantilus
24-08-2010, 11:54:04
More stats, less babbling please.

As they are very easy to find i provide you the data for Serie A 09/10.


Team Att. Made
-------------------------
Inter 6 6
Roma 11 9
Milan 10 7
Sampdoria 5 4
Palermo 9 8
Napoli 5 2
Juventus 4 3
Parma 4 2
Genoa 10 9
Bari 10 4
Fiorentina 3 2
Lazio 5 3
Catania 9 7
Cagliari 7 6
Udinese 7 6
Chievo 2 1
Bologna 3 3
Atalanta 4 3
Siena 4 2
Livorno 4 3
-------------------------
Total 122 90 = 73.8%

It just shows Bari and Napoli should change their penalty takers :p

Bring on EPL stats!

Funko
24-08-2010, 11:56:18
I couldn't find any.

Fistandantilus
24-08-2010, 11:57:34
You're just lazy.

Funko
24-08-2010, 12:26:56
I actually looked. :( How did you find those?

Fistandantilus
24-08-2010, 12:41:06
Well they remind us of those every week on the standings table here :lol:
http://www.gazzetta.it/speciali/risultati_classifiche/2010/calcio/seriea/index.shtml

The "rigori" columns are the penalties ones, there is even penalties against if you care about them.

Funko
24-08-2010, 12:51:45
:lol:

Maybe if we had those stats we'd be better at penalties, if we were worse.

Funko
24-08-2010, 12:58:07
Aha!

http://www.tottenhamhotspurs.tv/forum/players-lounge/11081-premier-league-penalty-statistics-2009-10-a.html

53/68 is 77.9% conversion rate.

Interesting that we get half as many penalties awarded. Fewer of our players 'helping the referee make the correct decision'? ;)

Funko
24-08-2010, 12:58:38
Ah, that was only up to Feb. So we dive just as much. :D

Funko
24-08-2010, 13:00:32
Aha!

http://www.football-lineups.com/tourn/FA_Premier_League_2009-2010/Stats/Penalties/

111 awarded, 25 missed. 77.4% scored. So Premiership was very slightly better than Serie A at penalties last year.

Funko
24-08-2010, 13:00:44
Maybe you have better keepers. :beer:

Fistandantilus
24-08-2010, 14:53:35
For sure. Otherwise this whole thread would be a fraud.

Back!
30-08-2010, 06:29:24
Well they remind us of those every week on the standings table here :lol:
http://www.gazzetta.it/speciali/risultati_classifiche/2010/calcio/seriea/index.shtml

The "rigori" columns are the penalties ones, there is even penalties against if you care about them.

:lol:

Maybe if we had those stats we'd be better at penalties, if we were worse.

why didn't you tell Funko that your national sportspaper offered those stats for EPL too?

http://www.gazzetta.it/speciali/risultati_classifiche/2010/calcio/premierleague/index.shtml

:p

do they match with their own site?

Funko
31-08-2010, 08:02:38
That bastard Fist. :bash:

Fistandantilus
31-08-2010, 08:48:09
:lol: I didn't notice

Funko
31-08-2010, 09:18:15
:lol:

MOBIUS
31-08-2010, 12:35:56
How embarrassing that we have to rely on another country to give us our penalty stats - it's almost like we're trying to hide them... :o

Do they have one for the Germans last year, I bet they're really good at penalties!

Just checked the Bundesliga for 2009/10, 50/43 = 86% conversion rate. So, clearly the British (and Italians) are crap at taking penalties - at least compared to the Germans!

Not only that, but they are far more disciplined (who would have thought, eh?) at the back and conceded half as many penalties on a per game ratio as the British.

No wonder we keep losing against the Germans...:rolleyes:

MOBIUS
31-08-2010, 12:41:44
BTW, Rooney's pen this w/e wasn't convincing and Bent was extremely luck not to get his saved...

Funko
31-08-2010, 12:50:23
So now even scoring isn't enough for you?

Funko
31-08-2010, 12:52:18
How embarrassing that we have to rely on another country to give us our penalty stats - it's almost like we're trying to hide them... :o

Do they have one for the Germans last year, I bet they're really good at penalties!

Just checked the Bundesliga for 2009/10, 50/43 = 86% conversion rate. So, clearly the British (and Italians) are crap at taking penalties - at least compared to the Germans!

Not only that, but they are far more disciplined (who would have thought, eh?) at the back and conceded half as many penalties on a per game ratio as the British.

No wonder we keep losing against the Germans...:rolleyes:

Maybe it's a difference in refereeing standards?

How many of the Serie A and Premiership penalties were taken by Italians/Brits I wonder?

MOBIUS
31-08-2010, 13:04:54
So now even scoring isn't enough for you?

No. Imagine if Bent makes it into the England team and has to kick a penalty...:eek:

MOBIUS
31-08-2010, 13:10:34
Maybe it's a difference in refereeing standards?

How many of the Serie A and Premiership penalties were taken by Italians/Brits I wonder?

That's quite a massive difference IMO. No, I prefer my German discipline theory, especially when it fits the stereotype...:D

That's a stat someone else can look up, though I'm still tempted to think that whatever the player's nationality, they are ultimately corrupted by the penalty taking standards of the country they play in.

So, we'd need stats on penalty accuracy for Brits and foreign players, plus a sub table of stats on whether a foreign players penalty taking ability deteriorates the longer they are exposed to British football. Unless they're Italian, because apparently they're equally shit.:p

Funko
31-08-2010, 14:00:34
No. Imagine if Bent makes it into the England team and has to kick a penalty...:eek:

And scores! (with an untidy penalty). Perfect.

Funko
31-08-2010, 14:01:45
And normally he absolutely nails penalties. We want someone who can score even when they take a bad one right?

Funko
31-08-2010, 14:02:55
That's quite a massive difference IMO. No, I prefer my German discipline theory, especially when it fits the stereotype...:D

That's a stat someone else can look up, though I'm still tempted to think that whatever the player's nationality, they are ultimately corrupted by the penalty taking standards of the country they play in.

So, we'd need stats on penalty accuracy for Brits and foreign players, plus a sub table of stats on whether a foreign players penalty taking ability deteriorates the longer they are exposed to British football. Unless they're Italian, because apparently they're equally shit.:p

Go and find them then. :beer:

You might also want to look at Champions League Penalty shootout winners by country. (I suggest discarding any shootouts where both teams are from the same country)

Funko
31-08-2010, 14:07:14
Also, the Bundesliga is only an 18 team championship rather than 20, so they should have 10% fewer penalties in the league. That's 10 penalties accounted for.

MOBIUS
31-08-2010, 15:05:53
Go and find them then. :beer:

You might also want to look at Champions League Penalty shootout winners by country. (I suggest discarding any shootouts where both teams are from the same country)

I'm too lazy. I've contributed just enough to cement some validity to my claim. We need one of those Italian types to look up the stats for us - they seem to be very good at it!:bounce:

Funko
31-08-2010, 16:05:10
No you haven't.

MOBIUS
01-09-2010, 09:42:40
The Germans being significantly better at scoring and not conceding penalties compared to the Brits = some validity to my argument.:beer:

Back!
01-09-2010, 09:46:59
maybe they put particular care in not conceding them, BECAUSE they know the opponent will be significantly better at scoring them?

There's always a flip side to every argument
I should know it

MOBIUS
01-09-2010, 09:54:31
So what you're saying is that the British are sloppy at conceding penalties (at least domestically) because they know that the penalty takers are relatively crap? Definitely sounds logical. We could also interrogate the stats to see if, in leagues where the penalty accuracy is higher, less penalties are conceded per game? As, seemingly, in Germany's case. This is a potentially fascinating development...:bounce:

Still supports my basic argument tho.:cute: