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Funko
01-06-2009, 12:35:13
I was going to say this was british politics but I guess some other countries have the same election?

With our current MP expenses scandals it seems we might be on course for a record low turnout! Woo. :beer:

God knows what the EuroMPs get away with on expenses.

I've voted already though, by post. Are the voting rules the same all through Europe?

The Mad Monk
01-06-2009, 12:42:54
Did you vote Tory, or did you vote for more scandals?

Funko
01-06-2009, 13:03:18
No I didn't vote Tory.

*indignant*

The Mad Monk
01-06-2009, 13:22:02
What scandals are you looking forward to this year?

Funko
01-06-2009, 15:19:00
I voted for the rent boys and alcoholics party.

Funko
01-06-2009, 16:18:53
On reflection, a very CG party.

Immortal Wombat
01-06-2009, 16:43:42
What scandals are you looking forward to this year?

Non-Tory ones :beer:

Scabrous Birdseed
01-06-2009, 17:25:42
No, the electoral system varies by country to harmonise with local systems. Here it's pretty much the same as for the national parliament (proportional, party lists-with-personal selection possible, 4% lower limit) but with only 18 parliamentarians.

The interesting thing that's emerging from Sweden in that the Pirate Party, a party that works for the legalisation of file sharing and increased internet privacy, looks extremely likely to gain one or even two seats. Personally, I'm very much engaged in a smaller party, the Feminist Initiative, which is also hoping for a seat - I spend pretty much all day campaigning for them.

*End Is Forever*
01-06-2009, 19:26:03
I think we're going to get more votes than Labour in Salford, which must be the first time for a while. A while being, I think, about 1935.

Oerdin
01-06-2009, 19:30:04
Where is the moat which got cleaned?

Provost Harrison
01-06-2009, 20:28:10
*End Is Forever*'s house, of course...of course when he is in power, he will be claiming for the upkeep of his portcullis, moat, thick city walls, several thousand serfs, grand castle and a small regiment of pikemen...

Funko
02-06-2009, 08:17:07
No, the electoral system varies by country to harmonise with local systems.

Funny because I only asked because our European system is so different to our other systems. Local councils and national elections we vote for individuals, Europeans we vote for Parties in a PR system.

MOBIUS
02-06-2009, 09:24:16
I think we're going to get more votes than Labour in Salford, which must be the first time for a while. A while being, I think, about 1935.

Your dear leader finally showing his colours when it comes to Europe: Tragic, unwise: Conservative grandees turn on David Cameron over plans for European Union (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/29/david-cameron-european-union-grandees)

Just a salient few snippets...

The fears of Britain's most senior serving diplomats, one of whom described the Tory plans as "bonkers", are only being voiced in private.

"I do not understand a rigid commitment to impotence," he said. "I do not understand why [the Czech and Polish parties who will form a new group with the Tories] are preferable to Angela Merkel or Nicolas Sarkozy, or why they think the route to influence lies that way."

The Tories have pledged to withdraw from the EPP-ED grouping, which consists of all the major centre-right parties within the EU. Instead, Cameron will establish a new group, principally with Poland's deeply conservative Law and Justice party, whose leaders have banned gay rights marches. It will also include the Czech ODS party, whose founder, Václav Klaus, disputes that global warming is man-made. Cameron met leaders of the ODS in the Czech Republic last night and in Warsaw tomorrow will meet leaders of the Law and Justice party.

The Tories have also been talking to the Lavtian Fatherland and Freedom party, some of whose members attend ceremonies to commemorate a Latvian unit of the Waffen SS.

I mean, WTF!?:gasmaske::gasmaske::gasmaske:

Funko
02-06-2009, 09:30:17
It is nice that I feel my vote counts in this one though. Like in council elections but unlike general elections 'cause we're a tory vs labour seat.

MOBIUS
02-06-2009, 09:42:53
Your vote always counts - even if its futility during the General Elections is to make a mockery of this country's undemocratic First Past the Post voting system.:)

I'm hoping that one positive to come out of this whole MPs scandal is that it appears those who have been calling for PR for decades are finally being heard by the public:

The ComRes survey found strong public support for some of the ideas highlighted by The Independent's Campaign for Democracy. Some 69 per cent of people support the introduction of proportional representation (PR), with 22 per cent opposed to it. Although the Tories oppose electoral reform, 63 per cent of people who support the party back PR, as well as 67 per cent of Labour supporters and 78 per cent of Liberal Democrat supporters. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-pays-the-price-of-expenses-scandal-1694507.html)

Also, hopefully, people will start questioning why the Euro elections are PR and the General Elections are not?

The government is supposed to refect the wishes of its people, er, apparently...;)

*End Is Forever*
02-06-2009, 14:44:43
Your vote always counts - even if its futility during the General Elections is to make a mockery of this country's undemocratic First Past the Post voting system.

Well, if you'd prefer some dodgy backroom deal that nobody voted for, fair enough...

As for the EPP exit (although actually the Conservative Party left the EPP years ago and sits with the affialiated European Democrats - hence EPP-ED). I don't see what the problem with wanting to sit with like-minded groups in the European Parliament, and the EPP is by-and-large a group of Euro-federalist Christian Democrats.

As for the "extremist" nonsense, that's just a smokescreen either from the tiny minority of Euro-federalists within the Conservative Party (like Lord Patten) or by political opponents trying to make political capital. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has given an assurance that we won't sit with unacceptable parties, and in any case, the two major groupings in the European Parliament already contain their share of nutcases:

Within the "moderate" EPP, along with the Sarkozys and Merkels of this world, we have:

Here's the Deputy Speaker of the Polish Sejm rejoicing in a court's decision to deprive a lesbian mother of custody of her four-year-old daughter: "The court didn't bow to pressure from the aggressive homosexual lobby, which came to make a scene as usual" - http://monitoring.kph.org.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=33:homphobic-remarks-by-polish-deputy-speaker-niesielowski&catid=3:newsen&Itemid=14

Here's a blatantly homophobic poster from last the Italian general election ("Daddy and Papa? This isn't the family we want!") - http://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/122164961_e6b7b172c4.jpg?v=0

Here's the first minister of Hesse calling for deportations: "We have too many criminal young foreigners... Germany has had a Christian and Western culture for centuries, and foreigners who don't stick to our rules don't belong here" - http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,525734,00.html

Here's the Austrian party whose Secretary General recently called for the banning of burqas, adding: "If we allow consultations to be held in Turkish, we will one day become Turkish ourselves" - http://wien.orf.at/stories/190038

All these parties are currently in the EPP. They are, respectively, the Polish Civic Platform, Forza Italia, the German CDU and the Austrian People's Party.

Of course, given Berlusconi's new alliance with the post-fascists in Italy, the Alleanza Nazionale have now joined the EPP as well - and these are the people we are being castigated for leaving...?

---

...and while we are on the subject, here are some of the friendly people that sit with the Labour Party in the PES:

Proinsias De Rossa MEP (Ireland)

Born Francis Ross, Proinsias De Rossa is PES MEP for the Dublin constituency and former member of the IRA. De Rossa was interned by the Irish government in the late 1950s for his involvement in the IRA’s border campaign – a campaign which caused the deaths of six British policemen.

Democratic Society Party (Turkey)

Despite being outside the European Union, the Party of the European Socialists has awarded the Turkish Democratic Society Party associate membership of their party. According to the European Union Institute for Security Studies, it is an “obvious secret that [the Democratic Society Party] is connected to the PKK, the militant terrorist organisation headed up by Abdullah Öcalan. Following a KPP terrorist attack in October 2007, Labour’s very own David Miliband had the following to say: “The PKK is trying to destroy the Turkish government's efforts to improve the situation of people in the south east of the country, provoke conflict between Turkey and Iraq and damage regional stability... I call on the international community to be unequivocal in its condemnation of PKK terrorism and to support Turkey in restoring stability”.

Self-Defence of the Republic (Poland)

The Self-Defence of the Republic party claims to represent the interests of poor, agricultural workers against big business. It is more famous, however, for the erratic behaviour of its leader Andrzej Lepper, the recipient of two honorary degrees from the anti-Semitic Interregional Academy of Personnel Management which counts, amongst others, American white supremacist David Duke as an honorary professor. According to the BBC, his party anthem once featured the line "this land is your land, this land is my land [and] we won't let anyone punch us in the face" – somewhat unsurprising, given Lepper’s multiple convictions for assault. The Party of the European Socialists welcomed a Self-Defence MEP into their grouping in December 2004.

Giulietto Chiesa MEP (Italy)

A former communist party official and television journalist, Giulietto Chiesa has sat with the British Labour delegation in the Party of European Socialists since 2006. Over the past five years, his parliamentary activities have largely focussed around organising screenings in Parliamentary buildings of his 9/11 conspiracy theory film “Zero” which alleges that the Pentagon was actually hit by a missile and that the Twin Towers were really detonated by explosives placed inside the building. Turning to other international events, Chiesa stated his opinion that “Russia did precisely what had to be done” during last year’s Georgia crisis.

Scabrous Birdseed
02-06-2009, 15:38:36
Yes, let's compare two kooks from tiny parties and two freedom fighters from likewise tiny parties to the immense dark force of right wing extremism sweeping across Europe. Belusconi and Sarkozy and their more openly fascist allies/strategists are an immense threat against freedoms and human rights - asylum rights, workers' rights, gay rights, abortion rights.

This election is an opportunity to take the fight.

Funko
02-06-2009, 16:07:12
...and while we are on the subject, here are some of the friendly people that sit with the Labour Party in the PES:

You're battling MOBIUS problems with the Conservatives bedfellows with Labour bedfellows? I'm sure he'll just say well fuck the Labour party too.

What nutters are ALDE mixed up with?

Anyway this kind of thing is one of the downsides of PR you end up with all the sensible(ish) parties in bed with loonies.

Funko
03-06-2009, 11:41:18
u r all greasy twats, Lib Dems FTW

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8077101.stm

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 11:49:10
You're battling MOBIUS problems with the Conservatives bedfellows with Labour bedfellows? I'm sure he'll just say well fuck the Labour party too.

Yeah, I thought that was funny too when I first read it...:D

I also like how Iaiaiaiain's excuse for turning to parties even more right wing than EPP-ED is by coming up with examples of the EPP-ED's extremism...:lol:

Iain, as you say yourself - you're joining a political grouping even more right-wing than Alleanza Nazionale!:clueless:

What nutters are ALDE mixed up with?

Dunno, it's led by a LibDem. At least our nutters are generally harmless...:beer:

Anyway this kind of thing is one of the downsides of PR you end up with all the sensible(ish) parties in bed with loonies.

If you want a proper democracy - deal with it.:)

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 11:50:16
u r all greasy twats, Lib Dems FTW

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8077101.stm

:lol::lol::lol:

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 12:16:06
Anti-gay, climate change deniers: meet David Cameron's new friends (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/02/david-cameron-alliance-polish-nationalists)

Seriously Iain, how can you support this policy - or David Cameron for that matter...?:(

Funko
03-06-2009, 12:17:52
Anti-gay, climate change deniers

Tories?

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 12:19:39
Well yes, we know that, but generally they have learned the good sense of hiding those views from the public...

Debaser
03-06-2009, 12:23:48
Just a salient few snippets...
The fears of Britain's most senior serving diplomats, one of whom described the Tory plans as "bonkers", are only being voiced in private.
I mean, WTF!?:gasmaske::gasmaske::gasmaske:

Is Dizzie Rascal a senior serving diplomat now? How very modern.

Funko
03-06-2009, 12:26:36
No, he's just a rascal.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 12:33:26
Aha, I knew it was out there somewhere: Many Tory MPs still sceptical on climate change (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/16/climatechange.greenpolitics)

So, on the single most important issue to affect humans since we stopped living in caves...

Of those that responded:

32.72% of Tories are still sceptical.:clueless::clueless::clueless:

12.08% of Labour.

11.76% of Lib Dems.

Where do you stand, Iain?:rolleyes:

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 12:39:22
And once you strip out the "don't knows":

19% of Tories.

7% of Labour.

4% of Liberal Democrats.

Clearly if you are worried at all about climate change, you should back the Lib Dems as the party that actually cares enough to give a damn!

Funko
03-06-2009, 12:44:01
Wait, what a minority of party members believe doesn't affect the party policy does it? To be fair Cameron has been fairly good on climate change.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 12:44:32
Parliamentary Climate Change Survey (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Environment/documents/2008/07/16/MPsClimateChangeSurvey.pdf)

Basically it gets worse when you look at it on a local government level - both the two main parties come out looking very bad.

Funko
03-06-2009, 12:46:24
That question is open to interpretation as well. Your statistics abuse, and abuse, is the kind of negative party politics I hate.

Funko
03-06-2009, 12:46:53
Unlike my comment about tories being anti-gay climate change deniers which was a cheap troll and therefore ok.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 12:51:07
Wait, what a minority of party members believe doesn't affect the party policy does it? To be fair Cameron has been fairly good on climate change.

True, but it still betrays an underlying prejudice that can adversely affect climate change issues in those MP's constituencies - which is still bad in my book.

And yes, I suppose he has, on the face of it - imagine how shocking the Tory results would be if Cameron himself hadn't embraced the climate change issue, at least publicly.

However, I still remember the fiasco about his cycling to work followed by his car - or installing a pointless wind turbine on his roof. I don't honestly think he cares all that much about climate change past how many votes he's likely to gain from gullible people sucked in by his PR stunts...

Funko
03-06-2009, 12:54:54
I don't think it'd make a difference to how most people vote TBH. People care about climate change as long as it doesn't affect their lives too much. They vote on jobs, how well off they feel, schools, health.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 12:57:46
That question is open to interpretation as well. Your statistics abuse, and abuse, is the kind of negative party politics I hate.

It's a straightforward Y/N question IMO. I'm not trying to bend the stats round to say things I want them to - I don't actually need to. That's not abuse in my book.

The point is that this sort of info needs to be out in the public domain - or people end up voting for people they might not otherwise. Which I think is what Cameron is relying on with his new alliance of right-wing parties in Europe - your average 'get Labour out - the Tories look OK' voter will never bother finding out who his new European bedfellows are likely to be...

Funko
03-06-2009, 13:02:58
I think that even more than Local Elections, people see the European elections as an opportunity to give the government a kicking in an arena that's not going to affect them that much.

And it's PR so on that basis, it's not get labour out, it's vote for anyone else. No 2 party excuse for the Lib Dems here.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 13:04:31
I don't think it'd make a difference to how most people vote TBH. People care about climate change as long as it doesn't affect their lives too much. They vote on jobs, how well off they feel, schools, health.

Which is the whole problem - by the time it starts appreciably affecting them - it will already be too late!

That is why we rely on our politicians to understand the situation properly and educate the public on what needs to be done.

Which, incidentally, is why we're all doomed to failure. Well, I'll be mostly OK. I'm just thinking of children growing up now...

Funko
03-06-2009, 13:08:54
No-one's going to win votes telling people they have to give up their car, can't buy new PCs, TVs, ready meals or that they need to pay four times as much for their food and electricity. They'd rather work out ways to strip mine the moon for He3 or whatever.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 13:09:32
I think that even more than Local Elections, people see the European elections as an opportunity to give the government a kicking in an arena that's not going to affect them that much.

And it's PR so on that basis, it's not get labour out, it's vote for anyone else. No 2 party excuse for the Lib Dems here.

Well, I was thinking more about the GE. But yes, you have basically hit the nail on the head - Cameron is basically going to get away with his ties to extremist European parties - because not enough people will notice!

I myself hardly know a think about European politics, for example.

However, to me, who he hangs around with provides a vital clue as to what really makes him tick - finally, I think, you are beginning to see the real 'Dave'...

Funko
03-06-2009, 13:11:00
He hasn't announced any policies yet has he? If he did I missed them.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 13:18:49
No-one's going to win votes telling people they have to give up their car, can't buy new PCs, TVs, ready meals or that they need to pay four times as much for their food and electricity. They'd rather work out ways to strip mine the moon for He3 or whatever.

You're right. I don't think you should try. Most of the positive changes an individual can make should actually save them money - hundreds of pounds a year!

It seems to me that when people talk of the carrot and stick approach - no one has even bothered with the carrot: Positive education and enablement on how people can improve their lives, health, bank balances - which actually, coincidentally, happen to reduce carbon emissions.

Like Cardiff Museum, for example. Until the carbon trust did an audit of their systems they were in blissful ignorance of how much money they could save - in the end it was something like £10k a month!!!:eek:

Money ultimately that, as taxpayers, we save on our bills.:)

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 13:21:11
He hasn't announced any policies yet has he? If he did I missed them.

EXACTLY!

He's relying on Gordon and Labour to cut their own throats and for the public to vote him into the vacuum without actually checking what he's about!:rolleyes:

Funko
03-06-2009, 13:22:27
Of course, why not? It's working just fine. Worst thing he could do would be to tell people he was going to do something they didn't like.

MOBIUS
03-06-2009, 13:31:41
Hey, I agree from a strategic POV - however I personally could not vote for a person whose policies I knew nothing about...

Which is why I find Cameron innately untrustworthy. In that vein he reminds me too much of Blair before he got elected - someone else I disliked the moment they came to my attention.

The Shaker
03-06-2009, 18:41:21
So far locally i'll probably vote for the guy who actually came to my door and I chatted to, rather than the current incumbents who havn't even bothered to send junk through the door, or the other party (whose leaflet with headline 'This is Exeter not Westminster' was distributed with a leaflet of support from the local MP).


Euopean wise....does anyone give a shit... I'll be going for some independant probably.
I think Katie Hopkins from Apprentice lack of fame is one of the candidates.

paiktis
04-06-2009, 19:07:51
cancel

Scabrous Birdseed
04-06-2009, 19:15:23
Upwards of 60%-80% of all local government decisions are implementations of EU directives. Now, in Greece you may just ignore what the EU tells you, but here in Sweden what directives come through make a huge difference.

paiktis
04-06-2009, 19:19:50
We don't ignore it. No country in the EU has the capacity to ignore EU directives. They are translated into national law automatically. What I'm saying is that EU decisions are still being taken through national concensus and not so much through supra-national bodies, such as is the european parliement.

paiktis
04-06-2009, 19:27:24
Then again, maybe you're right. We don't respect even national law. You probably are more "obidient" (not saying this in a bad sense) to the law. Yeah, I guess the european parliement can initiate legislative procedures. But there's a bottleneck in the council of ministers. That's where most decisions are validated but only though national (aka national governmental) basis.

Anyway, I don't know. I think... I don't know. Maybe I'll rethink it.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-06-2009, 20:21:12
The Parliament has considerably more to say than they used to, too. Sure, the big stuff is out of the parliaments reach, but look at the recent telecoms package - a few votes made a huge difference to its contents.

paiktis
04-06-2009, 20:57:15
...

paiktis
04-06-2009, 20:59:42
...

paiktis
04-06-2009, 21:09:33
woops

MOBIUS
05-06-2009, 11:25:31
:lol:

Thought better of your late night racist rants, eh paiky?;)

MOBIUS
05-06-2009, 11:27:10
Talking of racism - those normally mild-mannered Dutchies have been busy...

Anti-immigrant right win 15% of Dutch vote in European elections

Exit polls predict Freedom party to take second place

Leader Geert Wilders faces 'prosection':rolleyes: for hate speech

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/05/european-elections-the-netherlands-far-right

Spot the schpelling mischtake...:cute:

*End Is Forever*
06-06-2009, 13:27:17
EXACTLY!

He's relying on Gordon and Labour to cut their own throats and for the public to vote him into the vacuum without actually checking what he's about!:rolleyes:

http://www.conservatives.com/Policy.aspx

Some light bedtime reading for you. Enjoy.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-06-2009, 18:00:27
That page wants to load 13 items. It brings bad luck.

Provost Harrison
07-06-2009, 21:36:05
We don't ignore it. No country in the EU has the capacity to ignore EU directives. They are translated into national law automatically. What I'm saying is that EU decisions are still being taken through national concensus and not so much through supra-national bodies, such as is the european parliement.

Are you sure you wrote this paiktis...it was, erm, intelligible :D

paiktis
07-06-2009, 21:57:49
..

paiktis
07-06-2009, 21:59:17
..

paiktis
07-06-2009, 22:00:18
..

lightblue
07-06-2009, 23:21:18
BNP got a seat, no more laughing about the rightwing dutch people now. At elast Wilders and co are slightly palatable in a weird liberal-racist fashion. BNP is old school racist.

Oerdin
07-06-2009, 23:28:22
I imagine that with the economy down there are a fair amount of protest votes being cast. It doesn't mean people agree completely with the BNP or other radical parties but instead that they are pissed off with politics as usual and want to send a message to the guys in charge.

Regarding the BNP, are they just a typical white racist party or do they really hate all foreigners. Would white protestants (much less Catholics or Orthodoxed) also be a target for their ire? What about people of British ancestry from over seas?

MOBIUS
08-06-2009, 10:15:23
'Even animals are angry with us': David Blunkett breaks rib in cow stampede (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191506/Even-animals-angry-David-Blunkett-breaks-rib-cow-stampede.html)

'I know the public are furious with politicians, but I didn't realise that anger has spread to Britain's cow population too.

:lol:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-06-2009, 10:36:31
Angry cow disease

Scabrous Birdseed
08-06-2009, 10:44:36
I hear some hokey one-man party was huge in Austria. What's going on?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-06-2009, 11:12:03
A left wing journalist on an egomania trip heavily sponsored by the biggest right wing yellow press paper. Totally weird, yes.

Ah yes, and a lot of discontent with the braindead rotten fuckwits that pose as politicians.

protein
08-06-2009, 15:29:28
it's back to the 80s now. a swing to the far right. etonian twat tories, the bnp, ukip...

great. :mad:

Drekkus
08-06-2009, 15:36:16
ah well, after a swing to the left there will always come a swing to the left eventually

paiktis
08-06-2009, 16:11:45
I would just like to say that it was not far right wing, my comments.
I thought that through erotic dissapointment and heavily uncoordinated immigration policy I might have considered voting for a far right wing group.
Fortunately a kiss from a woman's lips came to the rescue at the last minute and I voted otherwise, as usual.
However my consideration to vote for a far right wing group had nothing to do with an affiliation whatsoever or adoption of their ideas. You have to realize how democracy works. It's like a negotiation. Sometimes when you want something you ask for far more than what you want. That way there are more chances that you will get what you really want which was not what you asked for. You asked for far mor in order to get what you want. Like a bargain.
That's all.
Now about immigration the thing is hitting the fan since Greece is a transitory country with borders all over the place. Sea, earth whatever. Pakistan, Afganistan, Palestine what have you come here through the water borders with Turkey which actively encourages such transits. It's just another sort of pressure. Greece has signs accords with many other european countries (like Germany) that say that who ever comes from Greece to these EU countries will be reprossessed to Greece. That's why the country is between a rock and a hard place.
Nobody feels that more than the inner city districts.
I don't blame immigrants but politicians who have completely lost the ball on that one.
We have the same number of immigrants as Italy (allegendly) and they're 50+ million. We are 10.

Fistandantilus
08-06-2009, 17:57:37
ah well, after a swing to the left there will always come a swing to the left eventually

Nice one.

MOBIUS
10-06-2009, 12:43:14
THIS (http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=89468289006&h=2n0f7&u=ZmULy&ref=nf) is how you tackle the extremists in politics - not stoop to their level and go round egging them to stop them from talking...

That's why freedom of speech is so important - it allows these idiots to cut their own throats.

Provost Harrison
10-06-2009, 19:45:54
I hear some hokey one-man party was huge in Austria. What's going on?

Is that the one that relocated to Germany and became rather successful? :cute:

techietone
13-06-2009, 16:38:53
i just want to know more about the duck house lol

techietone
13-06-2009, 16:40:29
BNP got a seat, no more laughing about the rightwing dutch people now. At elast Wilders and co are slightly palatable in a weird liberal-racist fashion. BNP is old school racist.

why not we laugh at the BMP infact we as a nation laugh at everyone ! especially outselfs