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MOBIUS
04-01-2009, 19:54:57
Ms MOBIUS has decided to boycott her Sharon Fruit as they are grown in Israel.

It's a pity too, as Morrison's do them much cheaper than the other supermarkets at only 50p for 4...:(

mr_B
04-01-2009, 19:57:43
hear hear for ms Mobius

death to all juice!!!

Drekkus
04-01-2009, 20:12:00
:lol: :lol:

fp
04-01-2009, 21:42:32
that is so wrong but so funny

Oerdin
04-01-2009, 21:50:14
Yeah! Boycott Israel. I mean just because Hamas is always firing rockets into Israel and murdering innocent people doesn't mean Israel should do anything about it. :rolleyes:

protein
04-01-2009, 22:39:30
nineteen israeli people have died in hamas rocket attacks since 2002. compared to nearly five thousand palestinians in israeli attacks.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

yeah, boycott them pesky palestinians for not being very good at war.

protein
04-01-2009, 22:46:06
“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

Koshko
04-01-2009, 22:56:48
Ever since the UN partition, Israel has been progressively taking over large amounts of Palestine territory. For some perspective:

http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/israel-palestine%20map.jpg

Greg W
05-01-2009, 00:47:32
I don't think that conflict will ever be resolved. There's way too much hatred, and all the killings on both sides just encourage new generations to hate and the cycle continues.

Thing is, groups like Hamas will never give up on rocket and suicide attacks. And Israel can't just sit back and do nothing. Both sides no doubt share the blame, but even if Israel gave back all the lands they have occupied since and after the 6 day war, this wouldn't be enough for the Palestinians.

And that's not even mentioning that I know a person from Jordan, and they hate the Palestinians. The Palestinians have basically declared an independent state in territory which the Jordanese offered them as temporary refuge. Now they don't even recognise Jordanese police or authority in those areas.

It's a fucked up area alright.

Sir Penguin
05-01-2009, 04:26:12
It even looks like a dick.

SP

Lazarus and the Gimp
05-01-2009, 06:06:03
Originally posted by protein
nineteen israeli people have died in hamas rocket attacks since 2002. compared to nearly five thousand palestinians in israeli attacks.




While the numbers are still going to be massively one-sided, those are skewed figures. You need to factor in the suicide bombings and other attacks on Israeli targets too- not just rockets.

Oerdin
05-01-2009, 07:09:51
Originally posted by protein
nineteen israeli people have died in hamas rocket attacks since 2002. compared to nearly five thousand palestinians in israeli attacks.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

yeah, boycott them pesky palestinians for not being very good at war.

That's because every Israeli now has a bomb shelter. Oh, and I don't buy the 18,147 figure but even if that many have died in the last 42 years that covers3 regular wars (67, 73, Leb where lots of Palestinians live) and dozens of smaller conflicts. All in all that's a tiny figure.

As for demolishing homes, GOOD! Most of those homes were built illegally without a permit which even Palestinians can get with a small fee. If I go and start building a house on your front yard would you want my new house demolished or would you feel sorry for me and let me keep it?

mr_B
05-01-2009, 08:24:33
illegally built, now that's funny

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-01-2009, 10:13:05
Oh holy crap, a ME thread. And Oerdin.

protein
05-01-2009, 10:49:59
this whole new israeli wave of attacks is based on hamas rockets. that's why i thought it was interesting to note that they only managed to kill 19 people. Whereas 514 Palestinians have died and 2400 injured since Israeli bombings started on 26 December

if you built a home in my yard, i'd suicide bomb you because i don't have a tank.

mr_B
05-01-2009, 11:05:27
I think it's very very nice they started after Xmas.

mr_B
05-01-2009, 11:05:49
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Oh holy crap, a ME thread. And Oerdin. hello batman

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-01-2009, 11:49:54
hello Robin

MoSe
05-01-2009, 11:53:35
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Ms MOBIUS has decided to boycott her Sharon Fruit as they are grown in Israel. Originally posted by mr_B
death to all juice!!!

lol, did she have a share on fruit juice?

best mr_B pun ever, btw

MoSe
05-01-2009, 11:53:58
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
hello Robin

Hello Rabin?

MOBIUS
05-01-2009, 20:47:59
Originally posted by mr_B
illegally built, now that's funny

Hear, hear...

Oerdin...:rolleyes:

For your urgent education, I suggest you take a look at this site: B'Tselem - The Israeli centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories (http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp)

Here is their resource on Israeli Settlements (http://www.btselem.org/English/Settlements/). What were your words again - ah yes, "built illegally without a permit..."

Here is a MAP (http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf) of how all these settlements (illegal in the eyes of numerous UN resolutions) and the new wall (also deemed illegal by the UN) have a total choke hold of the territorial integrity of the entire West Bank.

The Mad Monk
06-01-2009, 04:07:36
Originally posted by protein
this whole new israeli wave of attacks is based on hamas rockets. that's why i thought it was interesting to note that they only managed to kill 19 people. Whereas 514 Palestinians have died and 2400 injured since Israeli bombings started on 26 December



They have been firing rockets into Israel by the dozen, nearly every day, for years.

Just taking it from 2002, that's a minimum THREE THOUSAND rocket attacks. Into cities. At civilians.

If some nation was doing that into, say, Reading, what would you expect the British government to do?

Funko
06-01-2009, 08:56:07
Don't be silly, we invaded Iraq to prevent anything like that.

protein
06-01-2009, 14:08:48
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
They have been firing rockets into Israel by the dozen, nearly every day, for years.

Just taking it from 2002, that's a minimum THREE THOUSAND rocket attacks. Into cities. At civilians.

If some nation was doing that into, say, Reading, what would you expect the British government to do?
well, if we'd completely taken their land by force and they were clearly very unhappy, i think the british thing to do would be to think about powersharing or giving the land back.

Funko
06-01-2009, 14:15:30
Oh how we've changed.

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 14:24:51
Indeed, we realised after 30 years trying to run around shooting the IRA was a waste of time and decided to talk to them instead - and then look what happened!:eek:

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 14:25:30
Even in international diplomacy it pays to be lazy...:beer:

Funko
06-01-2009, 14:25:34
I was more referring to our benevolent colonial past.

protein
06-01-2009, 14:27:33
oh yeah, we were absolute cunts.

Funko
06-01-2009, 14:33:35
We ruled (most places).

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 14:34:38
That usually tends to happen when you're the guys with the overwhelming firepower. Obviously when we lost our Empire, not to mention fighting two World Wars, we realised we couldn't afford to be cunts any more. As well as it being a total drag...

I'd like to think we'd also learned some lessons about being nice (or at least not being cunts anymore) along the way too...

Funko
06-01-2009, 14:35:05
I think it was mostly the first reason.

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 14:43:41
So the logical conclusion to draw from our experience with the IRA is that the main reason the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is still going on is because Israel is actually too powerful compared to its neighbours...?

Funko
06-01-2009, 14:46:23
The situations are so different I'm not sure any comparisons or conclusions you might draw are that useful.

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 14:54:33
I think there are tons of comparisons, actually. Unless of course one questions whether Israel actually does want a peaceful resolution which sees it giving up control of the occupied territories...?

Funko
06-01-2009, 14:56:59
I didn't say there weren't any, I said I wasn't sure there are any that are useful.

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 15:06:18
How about the most obvious one? We actually decided to listen to Sinn Fein and cooperate with them without dictating terms.

I don't see why the same thing wouldn't work with the Israelis and Palestinians.

*End Is Forever*
06-01-2009, 15:13:52
Originally posted by MOBIUS
How about the most obvious one? We actually decided to listen to Sinn Fein and cooperate with them without dictating terms.

I don't see why the same thing wouldn't work with the Israelis and Palestinians.

Possibly because Hamas have no intention of listening or co-operating. If Hamas stopped firing rockets tomorrow, then there would be a reasonable chance of peace. If Israel laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be bloodshed to end all bloodshed.

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 15:39:58
Hamas was co-operating.

For its side of the bargain it received assassination raids, attacks on its smuggling tunnels, and a breaking of Israel's promise to relax the blockade.

Then you wonder why it starts firing rockets?:rolleyes:

Funko
06-01-2009, 15:50:26
Originally posted by MOBIUS
attacks on its smuggling tunnels, and a breaking of Israel's promise to relax the blockade.

Then you wonder why it starts firing rockets?:rolleyes:

If they weren't using the smuggling tunnels and blockade relaxations to smuggle in shit like rockets I think you'd have more of a valid point.

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 16:02:21
Except they weren't actually firing those rockets until they were first attacked...

Which leads onto a couple of other considerations:

1) If they know where the tunnels are, why don't they get the Egyptians to close them down instead of blowing them up and provoking a response (rocket fire)?

2) If Hamas is clearly able to supply all its weapons via these tunnels, what is the point in the blockade in the first place when all it does is collectively punish the entire population of Gaza, thus in turn radicalising them still further?

Ceasefire means 'stopping firing', when one side decides to ignore that fact, you can be pretty sure the other side will be right behind them.

And that is without addressing the clear provocation that Israel's ongoing Assassination Policy represents...

mr_B
06-01-2009, 16:03:32
doooooooooooooooooooo di dooooooo

mr_B
06-01-2009, 16:04:15
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Hear, hear...

Oerdin...:rolleyes:

For your urgent education, I suggest you take a look at this site: B'Tselem - The Israeli centre for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories (http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp)

Here is their resource on Israeli Settlements (http://www.btselem.org/English/Settlements/). What were your words again - ah yes, "built illegally without a permit..."

Here is a MAP (http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf) of how all these settlements (illegal in the eyes of numerous UN resolutions) and the new wall (also deemed illegal by the UN) have a total choke hold of the territorial integrity of the entire West Bank. yup, that's what i meant

Funko
06-01-2009, 16:12:22
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Except they weren't actually firing those rockets until they were first attacked...


So your argument is, it's ok for Hamas to rocket civilians because "they started it!"?

I don't think either side comes out of the situation well.

BTW Tony Blair is clearly doing a great job as Peace Envoy. Imagine what might happen if he wasn't there. Go Tony!

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 16:22:23
Originally posted by Funko
So your argument is, it's ok for Hamas to rocket civilians because "they started it!"?

No I do not. I believe it represents Hamas' frustration at being attacked, and the only means at their disposal with which to retaliate.

I also think you should now sit in the corner and wear your Poly hat for using such an underhanded and clearly misleading argument...:p

I don't think either side comes out of the situation well.

I agree, one side provoking knowing full well that the other side will retaliate - thus proving that neither side actually wants a lasting peace in the first place...:(

protein
06-01-2009, 16:22:45
they should send in clinton too. they could do a series of live concerts to promote peace.

protein
06-01-2009, 16:24:29
oh, they just blew up a UN-run school.

fucking hell.

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 16:30:56
HERE (http://www.counterpunch.org/niva08272003.html) is an interesting article showing the direct correlation between Israel's unilateral assassination attacks and the following breakdown of numerous cease fires in the past through retaliations by suicide bombings:

But a nearly certain predictor for a suicide bombing is when Israel assassinates a senior commander or political leader of a militant group, especially when it does so during or in the negotiations for a truce by these groups on attacks on Israelis. Examples from the past few years include:

* Israel's assassination of the two leading Hamas commanders in Nablus on July 31 2001 that put an end to a nearly two-month Hamas cease-fire on Israeli civilians, leading to the August 9 Hamas suicide bombing in a Jerusalem Sbarro pizzeria.

* Israel's assassination of the senior Hamas militant Mahmud Abu Hanoud on November 23, 2001 while Hamas was upholding an agreement with Arafat not to attack targets inside of Israel following the September 11 terrorist attacks on the US, leading to the Jerusalem and Haifa Hamas suicide bombings on December 1 and 2.

* Israel's assassination of leading Fatah militant Raed Karmi on January 14, 2002 during a cease-fire declared by all the militant groups in late December, leading to the Fatah linked Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade first suicide bombing on January 27.

* Israel's July 23, 2002 air attack on a crowded apartment block in Gaza City that assassinated the senior Hamas military leader, Salah Shehada, while also killing 15 civilians, 11 of them children, hours before a widely reported unilateral cease-fire declaration by the Fatah-linked Tanzim and Hamas, leading to the Hamas suicide bombing on August 4.

* Israel's assassination on December 26, 2002 of three prominent members from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade while representatives from Fatah, Hamas and other factions were meeting in Cairo to formulate a cease-fire on Israeli civilians to last through the Israeli elections on January 28, leading to the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade suicide bombing on January 5, 2003 that killed twenty-two Israelis.

Still, I suppose it is pretty that Israel's embattled Kadima party needed to do something pretty spectacular to get themselves re-elected.

Who knows, maybe all this carnage will end up being a blessing in disguise, because the alternative to Kadima is Netanyahu!!!:eek:

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 16:37:03
A more contemporary article written in the Times (that famous left-wing anti-semitic paper owned by Rupert Murdoch) by the Rabbi, Michael Lerner: It breaks my heart to see Israel's stupidity (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5446519.ece)

In it he writes:

Hamas had respected the previously negotiated ceasefire except when Israel used it as cover to make assassination raids. Hamas argued that these raids were hardly a manifestation of a ceasefire, and so as symbolic protest it would allow the release of rocket fire (usually hitting no targets). But when the issue of continuing the ceasefire came up, Hamas wanted a guarantee that these assassination raids would stop. And it asked for more. With hundreds of thousands of Palestinians facing acute malnutrition, Hamas insists that the borders be opened so that food can arrive unimpeded. And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me (apart from the rocket fire).

mr_B
06-01-2009, 16:38:28
Originally posted by mr_B
doooooooooooooooooooo di dooooooo

mr_G
06-01-2009, 16:39:59
yeahhhh tell'm Beej

MOBIUS
06-01-2009, 16:41:42
:lol:

Point taken! No more posts from me on the subject, even if in retaliation to extreme provocation...:cute:

*End Is Forever*
06-01-2009, 17:55:55
Originally posted by MOBIUS
No I do not. I believe it represents Hamas' frustration at being attacked, and the only means at their disposal with which to retaliate.

To be honest I suspect the rocket attacks are more likely to represent Hamas' aim of driving Israel and all Israelis into the sea if and where possible.

On a related note, one for the Hamas apologists - what happens to you if you live in Palestine and they find out that you are gay?

protein
06-01-2009, 20:05:59
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
To be honest I suspect the rocket attacks are more likely to represent Hamas' aim of driving Israel and all Israelis into the sea if and where possible.

who's driving who? if you look at that map it's clear who's been pushing.

hamas isn't palestine. hamas is an extreme response to a sustained invasion.

i don't think anyone here is pro-hamas just as nobody here could possibly start excusing what israel has done to palestine.

if someone has seven shades of shit kicked out of them every day for years by the same bully, they are going to start using some pretty nasty rhetoric about the bully.

mr_B
06-01-2009, 22:20:30
wooohooooooooo X-fear :shoot:

Greg W
07-01-2009, 01:10:22
And in return for the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Schalit, it asks for the release of 1,000 Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.Perfectly reasonable. :rolleyes:

Fact is that the conflict goes back so far and has such a history that arguing who's right and who's wrong is a very difficult process.

And frankly, if the Palestinians hadn't basically declared an independent state in Jordan, they wouldn't need blockades to be lifted, cos they'd be living happily amongst the previously sympathetic Jordanese and wouldn't be starving. I have very little sympathy for them there.

The Israelis may have done a lot of wrong, but Hamas often makes their own bed. Frankly, they're as bad as each other.

In the end, I believe there can be no peace. Even if Israel gave back all of the occupied territories, it would not be enough. Palestinians want Palestine back. All of it. And not to be living peacefully with Israeli neighbours.

The funny thing is that, going back to before the UN decision to grant Israel an independent state, my Jordanese friend tells me that Israelis and Arabs were happily living side by side in Palestine and other areas. Draw your own conclusions from that.