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Lurker the Second
12-12-2008, 05:11:06
I live in a socialist country. FUCK YOU ALL.

Lurker the Second
12-12-2008, 05:12:46
I mean holyshit can people be this stupid?

Lurker the Second
12-12-2008, 05:14:34
I'll sober up soon, so chill.

Oerdin
12-12-2008, 05:14:47
We only get the bad parts of Socialism. We're forced to bailout bankers but we don't get the good stuff like free health care and college educations.

Lurker the Second
12-12-2008, 05:19:53
actually, it seems we are saved. but who the hell knows

Oerdin: there is a difference, but it's a fine line and who knows where that line is.

JM^3
12-12-2008, 05:20:23
Err, did I miss something?

JM

Lurker the Second
12-12-2008, 05:20:53
Not likely, want to run a missioin?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
12-12-2008, 08:10:08
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
I mean holyshit can people be this stupid?

If you knew people, you wouldn't ask that question.

What happened? Got a goldplated homeless shelter?

Drekkus
12-12-2008, 08:36:31
Is this about the carmakers not getting their money?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
12-12-2008, 08:40:04
I don't understand that refusal. The US carmakers are as good a Ponzi scheme as the banks and the Wall Street fraud machine.

Oerdin
12-12-2008, 08:40:04
I'm sure Germans and Japanese are happy. America is pushing it's automakers down the mine shaft so the foreigners don't have to do the same.

JM^3
12-12-2008, 08:46:47
America has been building cars that cost more and aren't as good for quite some time...

Honestly, they need a restructuring. If they did that (probably would need chapter 11), I would support a bailout of it was still needed.

JM

Venom
12-12-2008, 13:31:39
Pension plans for the mighty union workers add approximately $2000 to the price of an american car.

MDA
12-12-2008, 13:39:42
and the union was... reluctant to make concessions

Venom
12-12-2008, 13:41:25
So they can fuck off and lose their jobs.

KrazyHorse
12-12-2008, 13:46:41
Build more Toyotas.

:beer:

Lurker the Second
12-12-2008, 16:04:33
Originally posted by Drekkus
Is this about the carmakers not getting their money?

I think it was about the fact that it looked like they were gonna get their money, but then that changed. Of course, who really knows what I was thinking.

Oerdin
12-12-2008, 16:13:03
Originally posted by Venom
Pension plans for the mighty union workers add approximately $2000 to the price of an american car.

Used to add about $2000. Since the 2005 agreement legacy costs have been gotten down to just $400 and dropping.

As you can see in this NYT article pension and retiree health care costs are about $16 per hour (see figure on left): http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/business/economy/10leonhardt.html?_r=2&ref=business

Also GM claims they are producing cars with about 20 man hours per vehicle. That leads it to $320 (16*20) so even if we round up the legacy costs for pension and retiree health care are only around $400 per vehicle.

The basic fact is GM has gotten concessions out of retirees over the years and in 2010 it is scheduled to make it's last payment into the retiree health care fund after which the UAW takes over the fund and is responsible for managing the whole thing. GM will essentially stop paying retiree health care.

There is still the issue that total employee costs per hour (excluding retiree costs) would be $55 per hour vs $46 at the nonunion Japanese plants but that number is already going lower because of the two tier pay system for everyone hired post 2005.

Oerdin
12-12-2008, 16:19:04
Oh, and just this week the union ended the Jobs Bank unilaterally as a concession to help GM save money. They have made concessions and said they are willing to make more in negotiations. They just don't want to give up everything before negotiations even start.

The Jobs Bank concession alone will greatly narrow the $55 vs $46 figure.

Funko
12-12-2008, 16:21:26
Japanese cars are good though.

Lurker the Second
12-12-2008, 16:34:31
Bah, that's all marketing. Now that the federal government is going to run the companies, that perception will change. We will finally have jeenyasis running the companies and all is well, all is well.

Oerdin
12-12-2008, 17:23:10
Originally posted by Funko
Japanese cars are good though.

The Corvette is a lovely car.

Asher
12-12-2008, 17:26:47
Originally posted by Oerdin
Oh, and just this week the union ended the Jobs Bank unilaterally as a concession to help GM save money. They have made concessions and said they are willing to make more in negotiations. They just don't want to give up everything before negotiations even start.

The Jobs Bank concession alone will greatly narrow the $55 vs $46 figure.

I fucking hate this shit.

The Jobs Bank was ABSURD even in concept. The fact that it EXISTED is ridiculous. The fact that they got rid of it as soon as the general public heard about it and gasped at the stupidity of it all, because it really showed just how much the UAW was fucking over the Big Three, they got rid of it then spun it like it was them being nice guys.

This is like a child stealing their mother's dildo to go rape the neighbour's dog, but when caught they put it back and say they're making concessions for the greater good of the community.

JM^3
12-12-2008, 17:27:31
Yeah, I wonder if socialism can finely start once the government controls most the stock in all major companies?

JM

Dyl Ulenspiegel
12-12-2008, 17:35:34
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
I think it was about the fact that it looked like they were gonna get their money, but then that changed. Of course, who really knows what I was thinking.

And changed again, now they are TARPworthy.

As I said above, now that makes sense.

MDA
12-12-2008, 19:07:41
Originally posted by Oerdin
The Corvette is a lovely car.

Lovely does not necessarily equate to good.
Doesn't hurt though.

Oerdin
12-12-2008, 20:04:48
The big 3 have been proven to be pretty good quality wise beating most of the European and Korean makers and just behind the big 2 Japanese makers; they beat most of the smaller Japanese brands. The latest report from J.D. Powers & Associates on quality (defects and repairs) in the first three years have the big three with record numbers of cars winning quality awards.

The perception hasn't caught up to the reality and the reality is the Big 3 make some pretty high quality cars.

http://newcarbuyingguide.com/index.php/news/main/4053/event=view

Of course Asher will say that 3 years of tracking quality isn't long enough and maybe that's so but it is a very good indication that things aren't as bad as some people make them out to be. In fact the numbers are quite good.

Vincent
12-12-2008, 20:07:06
I'll go and buy one!

Oerdin
12-12-2008, 20:12:46
It's notable that Toyota's Scion, their low budget brand for North America, does below average in three year quality rankings. Toyota cut to many corners trying to save costs on the Scion line and it shows in the quality rankings.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/29/study-finds-that-small-cars-have-fewer-long-term-w/

Vincent
12-12-2008, 20:32:34
Why don't you buy a Volvo?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jTM4ZOa69U

Lurker the Second
15-12-2008, 15:54:13
Hehe, somehow I missed this article when it came out over a week ago:

Donald Trump: recession is an "act of God", so I don't have to repay my loans (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/business/05norris.html)

MDA
16-12-2008, 14:28:22
I guess if American cars are still good when my Honda finally wears out, I'll consider buying one. That ship might have sailed by then, though. My parents have had bad experiences with their last Ford and GMC vehicles, and just got a CRV last year that they love, despite it being half the size of the behemoth vehicles my father likes.

I got irritated by the "Buy American, so we don't have to compete." bullshit back in the 90's.

:lol: at the Donald

Asher
16-12-2008, 15:00:46
The JD Powers & Associates this is utter fucking crap.

I've posted at length on Poly why the Big Three quality sucks compared to Toyota/Honda, and this is because I know many engineers who work for firms who need to design the things. I know the difference in quality expectations, unit cost, and specs and I know it's reflected in poor long-term quality.

The JD Powers survey is shit because it's not long-term enough to see the huge difference in later-life reliability.

Oerdin
16-12-2008, 16:48:30
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Hehe, somehow I missed this article when it came out over a week ago:

Donald Trump: recession is an "act of God", so I don't have to repay my loans (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/business/05norris.html)

He does routinely declare bankruptcy. It just seems like it's that time for him again.

Sir Penguin
16-12-2008, 17:30:17
I got a brilliant idea: the Toyota Volt.

No, wait, wait... the Google Volt!

SP

TCO
17-12-2008, 00:28:10
I told you motherfuckers where this was headed.

Asher
17-12-2008, 01:50:34
I told you motherfucker where this was headed before you told these motherfuckers where this was headed.

TCO
17-12-2008, 03:24:52
But I made you cry.