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C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 07:29:32
This one is an example of excellent audio equipment

http://www.usa.denon.com/productdetails/3429.asp


Denon's 1.5 meter (59 in.) ultra premium Denon Link cable was designed for the audio enthusiast. Made from high purity copper wire and high performance connection parts, the AK-DL1 will bring out all the nuances in digital audio reproduction from any of our Denon DVD players with the Denon Link feature


499$

Excellent. Note that it's for digital audio. It will bring out all nuances of 0s and 1s!

I'll buy it and use it for my printer, that way the printed pictures will be more brilliant!

MattHiggs
19-06-2008, 07:38:38
There has been numerous consumer tests on these high-end cables and there's absolutely no difference in cables that cost 2 and the cables that cost 50.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 07:42:41
Except for the price?

Funko
19-06-2008, 08:29:08
Oh yeah, the price. I didn't notice that.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 08:30:38
I also like the colour

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 09:08:05
I think you need one of those if the output level goes to x(0000 1011)

Funko
19-06-2008, 09:47:06
:lol:

protein
19-06-2008, 10:06:25
Originally posted by MattHiggs
There has been numerous consumer tests on these high-end cables and there's absolutely no difference in cables that cost 2 and the cables that cost 50.
"consumer tests". :)

there are differences in cables. you wouldn't expect to find a high end recording studio using cheap wires for monitors or to connect any piece of equipment. but then that's a different world.

there's no reason for consumers to buy anything other than what they think sounds nice.

if you are making the music for the consumer, you have to use the cleanest monitoring chain possible and you should be able to tell the difference between a good cable and a bad one.

there was a joke when we were recording the album that whenever we used cubase or PCs or semi-pro soundcards we were using "consumer audio" and made snooty snorting noises. .

there's a guy who sells expensive guitar leads to the rolling stones. all he does is make guitar leads without the outer shield. which he's worked out isn't needed and degrades the signal. i'm not sure that's worth a hundred quid a cable though.

protein
19-06-2008, 10:08:34
although i don't think you could gain anything from a fancy digital cable. you do lose digital information when you copy cds. perhaps it's the same with consumer audio products connecting via SPDIF?

Funko
19-06-2008, 10:37:14
You won't get any difference out of a digital cable. Probably for studios they want harder wearing and durable cables that'd cost more. Things like monitor cables, guitar leads etc. are analogue.

The thing where a professional environment will really have an edge is in the quality of their analogue to digital converters, and the bitrates they are using to encode the data.

You only lose data when you copy music CDs through encoding and decoding the songs.

If you copy the exact digital information from one CD to another via a disk image you don't lose anything. Just as if you copied text files from one CD to another, you wouldn't lose odd letters and words here and there.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 10:38:45
A stream of 0s and 1s will be a stream of 0s and 1s. If it's not identical, the cable is broken and should be replaced.

You won't gain any special sound by using a 499$ cable. If you believe so, buy one. use it to connect to the internet and check out, if this forum gains more charisma.

Spend the money on a nice analog-to-digital converter instead

protein
19-06-2008, 11:11:05
it's not as simple as a stream of zeros and ones.

you can lose data copying from cd to cd and quality of data stream over longer cheaper cables, if a decoder gets information it doesn't understand it will call it a zero and then move on.

spdif doesn't just send a stream of zeros and ones, as far as i remember is sends blocks of information, each one with a control code for whatever is reading it to lock onto. you can pick up noise with cables and that would be additional data for the decoder to work on. if it doesn't understand a block it will call it a zero and move onto the next one. since this is about audio in real time and not for example a computer programme downloading down a phone line.

if the cable is noisy, there will be additonal information for the decoder to work on and therefore more digital data lost and audio artifacts gained.

protein
19-06-2008, 11:15:57
digital audio is different from digital data. i think that's worth baring in mind. if you are downloading a programme or jpeg or whatever, the decoder will keep asking for the information again until it is right. with audio, speed being the essense, it will ignore mistakes and move on. mistakes will manifest themselves as clicks and pops. i used to have real problems with some rack gear of mine clicking and popping and not locking in properly until i got high end cables.

protein
19-06-2008, 11:17:39
i'm not saying those aren't a con though.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 11:24:00
Length of a cable is not a matter of its quality. If it's too long, it's a problem with your network setup, you need hubs.

If "noise" would be a problem with digital cables, computer networks would collapse immediatly, because they are more sensitic to flipped bits than audio data (you'd never hear a single flipped bit).

SP/DIF is of course a binary based protocoll and therefore it consits onl of representations of zeros an ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

The "blocks" of SPDIF are just "words", meanig a fixed number of bits representing a specific information, like in computer languages.

Oerdin
19-06-2008, 11:29:44
My dad is an electrical engineer and so is one of my best friends. They've both told me monster cables and those other high priced cables won't do anything for you. They're just another way of getting people to pay more for crap they don't need.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 11:29:48
Clicks and pops are in general not a result of bad network cables. CAT6 cables can carry a lot more data than usually used for music. Clicks and pops and almost every error is a result of processing errors, storage devices etc. If you get this from a digital cable CAT6 it's broken.
There's no use for a 500$ cable. It will add nothing to the sound compared to a reliable CAT6 cable (max. 10$)

Funko
19-06-2008, 11:30:00
Originally posted by protein
you can lose data copying from cd to cd and quality of data stream over longer cheaper cables, if a decoder gets information it doesn't understand it will call it a zero and then move on.

Digital audio is absolutely no different from any other digital data.

With audio you can only lose quality if you encode and decode which is what you are talking about.


If you are copying without encoding and decoding you can't lose quality, but you could lose data. If you lose data during the transfer then it's a faulty cable that needs replacing as Vinnie said.

A more expensive cable might last longer, and be more durable and less likely to go faulty, but if it's digital it either works or it doesn't.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 11:31:05
It either works or it's manufactured by HAMA

Funko
19-06-2008, 11:32:37
HAMA superstar?

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 11:32:49
I mean: You wouldn't use a 500$ midi cable because it brings out nuances of the keyboard?

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 11:38:30
On second thoughts: You may use a strong cable to strangle the keyboarder, so it might be worth the 500$

protein
19-06-2008, 11:57:20
i beg to differ with you guys. without wanting to get into some boring triangular sandwich debate, i know i'm right about this one. i've had a little more experience working with digital audio and learned a little from some of the world's best audio engineers.

you can lose digitial information through cables and that lost information will be defaulted to zero.

it isn't the same as other digital information transfers such as downloading a computer programme. if you lose digital information in that case the computer programme will not work. if your waveform has a slightly different shape on one of the slopes on one of the bits of distortion on one of the waves that makes up hundreds of waves that will be imperceptable to the ear, it doesn't matter so much.

when you have a poor digital television signal, you see artifacts.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 12:01:03
If you have a poor digital TV signal, it's not a problem of the cable. The TV signal will stay poor even with a 500$ cable.

If you have problem with "noise", use an optical cable rather than a 500$ audio cable.

Digital transfer is digital transfer. A cable is not magic.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 12:04:13
And as I got 25 experience with digital information exchange working for the one of the wold's best companies of the world and being German, which beats everything, I may say:

Cheap CAT6 cables roxx!

protein
19-06-2008, 12:20:55
aaargh. i think we're discussing different points now. i think you are now agreeing that you can get problems with digital noise through cables. which is great. that's my entire point. you can get cables that lessen that problem. those cables cost more money. good. we're all agreed then. bloody germans!

by the way, i'm in hamburg tomorrow, we could discuss this over a beer if you wanted. :)

Funko
19-06-2008, 12:23:12
I've looked up S/PDIF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPDIF#Protocol_specifications

You are right about some bits being defaulted to 0, but it's not in the way you think.

S/PDIF carries compressed audio data, that means you have an encoder and a decoder at either end of the cable, as we've said, encoding and decoding is the process that can lose you quality. S/PDIF uses 20 bit audio streams as standard. Some devices can handle 24 bit streams but if you try and send 24 bit to a 20 bit device it sets the extra 4 bits to 0. Which would lose quality information if you start off with a 24 bit signal. Also, if you send stuff in a lwoer bit rate, eg. 16 bit, it creates the additional bits and sets them to 0.

The encoding actually doesn't allow you to miss data part way through the stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphase_mark_code

Any time you go from analogue to digital, digital to analogue, digital to another format of digital, compressed to uncompressed there's a danger you can lose information and therefore quality. But you won't lose it on a digital to digital transfer where the format doesn't change on a non-faulty cable.

Analogue, yes, you can, digital, no you can't.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 12:29:35
Digital noise is a broken cable or you're working at CERN.
If the corrupting signal is strong enough to create noise, no common digital cable will be able to avoid that. That's an extreme situation.

In Hamburg? Really? Cool! I'm available, gotta work overtime.

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 12:31:22
I think I gotta work until 6 :(

C.G.B. Spender
19-06-2008, 12:46:30
When will you be where?

Asher
19-06-2008, 14:43:11
This is not an audio cable.

Asher
19-06-2008, 14:46:43
Originally posted by protein
digital audio is different from digital data. i think that's worth baring in mind. if you are downloading a programme or jpeg or whatever, the decoder will keep asking for the information again until it is right. with audio, speed being the essense, it will ignore mistakes and move on. mistakes will manifest themselves as clicks and pops. i used to have real problems with some rack gear of mine clicking and popping and not locking in properly until i got high end cables.

Digital audio is digital data. :mad:

There is no difference on your digital cables unless bandwidth becomes compromised. If you're using high-bandwidth stuff, like 1080p video + 7.1 24-bit/192KHz uncompressed audio you better be sure your cable can support that bandwidth.

Otherwise, there is no "packet loss" (the term you are looking for, I think) in a digital cable unless it is severed.

Asher
19-06-2008, 14:48:32
Originally posted by Funko
I've looked up S/PDIF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPDIF#Protocol_specifications

You are right about some bits being defaulted to 0, but it's not in the way you think.

S/PDIF carries compressed audio data, that means you have an encoder and a decoder at either end of the cable, as we've said, encoding and decoding is the process that can lose you quality. S/PDIF uses 20 bit audio streams as standard. Some devices can handle 24 bit streams but if you try and send 24 bit to a 20 bit device it sets the extra 4 bits to 0. Which would lose quality information if you start off with a 24 bit signal. Also, if you send stuff in a lwoer bit rate, eg. 16 bit, it creates the additional bits and sets them to 0.

The encoding actually doesn't allow you to miss data part way through the stream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biphase_mark_code

Any time you go from analogue to digital, digital to analogue, digital to another format of digital, compressed to uncompressed there's a danger you can lose information and therefore quality. But you won't lose it on a digital to digital transfer where the format doesn't change on a non-faulty cable.

Analogue, yes, you can, digital, no you can't.

Who uses SPDIF anymore? ;)

I had to ditch it cause it was too slow for the HD audio.

Asher
19-06-2008, 14:50:11
Originally posted by protein
i beg to differ with you guys. without wanting to get into some boring triangular sandwich debate, i know i'm right about this one. i've had a little more experience working with digital audio and learned a little from some of the world's best audio engineers.

you can lose digitial information through cables and that lost information will be defaulted to zero.
By design this cannot be the case unless there is a break in the cable.

Fistandantilus
19-06-2008, 14:59:16
Originally posted by Asher
This is not an audio cable.

Is there a reason it's designed for the audio enthusiast then?

MoSe
19-06-2008, 15:31:33
do they test your enthusiasm before approving the sale?

MoSe
19-06-2008, 15:32:37
Originally posted by Asher
Huh?


Originally posted by Asher
unless there is a break
Originally posted by MoSe
OK, give me a break


ooops, edited the original instead of posting the explanation in a new post....

Vincent
19-06-2008, 15:53:35
It's an enthusiasm cable.

Lurker the Second
19-06-2008, 16:05:43
Additionally, signal directional markings are provided for optimum signal transfer.

Amazing. That's gotta be worth at least $100. You people just don't appreciate quality.

Asher
19-06-2008, 16:18:29
Originally posted by MoSe
gimme a break

Huh?

It's an ethernet cable. It's a data cable.

Funko
19-06-2008, 16:20:14
The signal directional markings thing is funny.

Do you think it means the painted arrows?

http://www.usa.denon.com/AKDL1_G.gif

Lurker the Second
19-06-2008, 16:54:09
No idea, but that's as good a guess as anything. Maybe that's really worth an extra $120. I think I underestimated before.

Vincent
19-06-2008, 17:15:28
So the data knows in which direction to flow. Clever!

Beta1
19-06-2008, 17:32:15
So the data goes each way down the wire, not sideways out of the wire.

Thats good to know.

Noisy
19-06-2008, 17:55:29
Originally posted by protein
...

if the cable is noisy, ...

You calling me a wire?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-06-2008, 18:09:50
no, just a cable

Greg W
20-06-2008, 03:19:40
Originally posted by C.G.B. Spender
It either works or it's manufactured by HAMA Stop! HAMA time!

Funko
20-06-2008, 07:58:02
Originally posted by Beta1
So the data goes each way down the wire, not sideways out of the wire.

Thats good to know.

Not just good to know, it helps give you "optimum signal transfer"

C.G.B. Spender
20-06-2008, 08:01:07
and the nuances don't sneak from the cable

MoSe
20-06-2008, 09:10:35
see?

there don't need to be a break:
da cable can just be leaky

C.G.B. Spender
20-06-2008, 09:45:22
A few good rules for better transmission are:
* send a high value word for 24 bis x111111111111111111111111 so the cable is stretched to the maximum. That way the following bits will run faster

* then send a sequence of digital zeros , so the cable is clean. The number of seros to be send depends on the length of the cable and the bandwith

Funko
20-06-2008, 09:49:22
Just collect all the 1s out of the data, send them first, then send all the 0s. Much faster.

C.G.B. Spender
20-06-2008, 10:24:20
What's the use of sending 0s anyway?

Funko
20-06-2008, 10:25:12
Brilliant. We just got 50% more efficient.

C.G.B. Spender
20-06-2008, 10:27:50
We could add all the ones and send the number of ones instead!

Funko
20-06-2008, 10:29:31
Why send the 1s at all? We know all we are sending is 1, so just assume that at the far end.

Then we don't even need a cable.

Tizzy
20-06-2008, 10:32:13
Send them by psychic waves

C.G.B. Spender
20-06-2008, 10:38:11
or an SMS

Tizzy
20-06-2008, 10:39:01
Or PMS.

Oh.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
20-06-2008, 10:41:36
Originally posted by Funko
Brilliant. We just got 50% more efficient.

Efficiency +x %?

C.G.B. Spender
20-06-2008, 11:18:58
x = -50

Funko
20-06-2008, 11:25:57
Always.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
20-06-2008, 11:34:18
I thought the only use for high end cables was for rear entertainment purposes.

MDA
20-06-2008, 12:17:18
so this "high end audio cable" isn't a euphemism for some bizarre sex act?

you guys are slipping

Funko
20-06-2008, 12:21:08
the high end audio cable into our rears

MoSe
20-06-2008, 12:31:19
Originally posted by C.G.B. Spender
What's the use of sending 0s anyway?

to sink ships with kamikazes

LoD
23-06-2008, 16:09:57
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080618 and a cople strips after that

Vincent
23-06-2008, 18:04:18
They stole our thread

mr_B
23-06-2008, 19:19:48
this is a good threadje

MoSe
24-06-2008, 07:07:56
nanotubular bells